Retri re-work options

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Rivelle » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:39 pm

Okay I have a new idea!
(It's similar to the ones I've posted before, but better :') I think)

Retributionist Rework:
The retributionist can pray for one player, each night, including themselves. (Unlimited prays)
If one of the prayed targets die, their role is cleaned.
The retributionist can revive one player they prayed for- including evils. (Cannot revive unique town roles)
The retributionist can revive even if dead.

Medium nerf:
Cannot speak to the dead (can still receive messages)
(Since this would make the medium underpowered, I think medium should get a buff in another way)
(Maybe the seance could work through day and it goes to everyone?)
The reason for this nerf is so the dead can't confirm mediums.

Examples of retributionist plays:
#1: Comeback
Retributionist prays for a Sheriff on n4.
On day 7, only the godfather and lookout remain. But the sheriff was revived- therefore town can win!

#2: Accidental Janitor
Retributionist prays for literally everyone
All of the roles in the graveyard are cleaned and whoops... evils have an easy time of claiming now

#3: Blind Sided
Retributionist is reviving a member of the mafia because they think they're a townie.

#4: Second Chance
Retributionist dies n1, but revives themselves the next day because they prayed for themself before dying.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:53 am

Rivelle wrote:Okay I have a new idea!
(It's similar to the ones I've posted before, but better :') I think)

Retributionist Rework:
The retributionist can pray for one player, each night, including themselves. (Unlimited prays)
If one of the prayed targets die, their role is cleaned.
The retributionist can revive one player they prayed for- including evils. (Cannot revive unique town roles)
The retributionist can revive even if dead.

Medium nerf:
Cannot speak to the dead (can still receive messages)
(Since this would make the medium underpowered, I think medium should get a buff in another way)
(Maybe the seance could work through day and it goes to everyone?)
The reason for this nerf is so the dead can't confirm mediums.

Examples of retributionist plays:
#1: Comeback
Retributionist prays for a Sheriff on n4.
On day 7, only the godfather and lookout remain. But the sheriff was revived- therefore town can win!

#2: Accidental Janitor
Retributionist prays for literally everyone
All of the roles in the graveyard are cleaned and whoops... evils have an easy time of claiming now

#3: Blind Sided
Retributionist is reviving a member of the mafia because they think they're a townie.

#4: Second Chance
Retributionist dies n1, but revives themselves the next day because they prayed for themself before dying.

The problem there is cleaning is exclusively beneficial to evils. Especially since it removes their wills. At least make it so they only clean targets they can revive. Otherwise, they are going to have a hard time figuring out if it was a mayor, or a vet (since I assume the ret it'self is immune to this). Any good jailor reveals, soo yea. This would only re-enforce that meta. The threat of reviving an evil is already great enough, let's not make the role too weak.

Also medium can literally copy and past what the dead said to prove they are medium. This just inhibits communications. It is literally impossible to stop the current type of medium from being confirmable by a ret reviving a dead playing unless at least one of the two involved are just suprisingly bad.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby UzayAltay » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:51 am

My Suggestion :
Revived Player Will be voteless , wont count at majority , cant whisper or whispered to , and cant be healed by Doctor.

This only leaves retri with problem mediums would be confirmed , which should be solved via A medium rework IMO .
This will encourage Another way of playing : keep Revive until an important role die . For example , reviving Mayor wont Do anything Except confirming ret/Med . So , This rework has The potential broke " revive n2 " Meta .Retris Will still revive If there is A Med claim ( until Med is reworked ) , or they are Under pressure , but it Will be much less .

EDIT :
Brilliand wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Amnesiac is also a swingy role and should probably be reworked into Double.


Hadn't heard of Double before, but now that I've found it...

I think that role comes unfortunately close to simply being "player not appearing in this game." It kills one person; one person is now out of the game; and the rolelist is now exactly as it was before except with the Double gone. The *player* who is gone isn't the same player who was playing Double, but that hardly matters.

Kirize12 wrote:Personally I think Trauma Patient is a bit less swingy than Town Necro.


I'm worried about Trauma Patient being weaker than just having another copy of another role ingame from the start (by the number of nights it takes for someone to die, plus one night to remember). The Town Necro compensates for this by having the flexibility to pick a different role every night, once he gets going. More swingy, probably, but it needs the extra strength to stay competitive with the other town roles.


Yes , double can be played Like that ( shoot A Player which wont protected night 1 ) , but I am Pretty sure not All players Will Do that , even though most of time We Will see A Night 1 double kill and Game Will continue .
We Will see players claim surv as double and try joining winning faction later .
We Will see players hesitant to shoot night 1 with afraid Another double can attack there as well ( If two double attack Same target Same night , they die and lose )
We Will see players that want to join scum faction , so Wait until A scum is outed on a TvS interaction and Than shot scum If town is lynched .
We Will see players that Wait until A faction is winning .
Even though most of time that wont happen , these can happen , and it is much More balanced Than amnesiac , even though not " 0 swing "
22-25 Spoiler: Town Games(14-17)

NFM 50 , NFM 51 ,NFM52 , 14D , 14 E , NFM 54 ,14H ( AF ) ,14G , NFM 55 , NFM 56 , 15C , NFM 57,NFM 58,15F,SFM45,16B , VFM36 , 16D , SFM 47 , VFM38 , NFM62 , 16G ,VFM 39,EpisodeXVII , 17B , 17C , VFM44 , 17D , 17F,18C,18D

Scum Games (8-8)

NFM 48 , NFM 49 , TFM 65 ,TFM 66 , Episode XV ,TFM68 ,VFM 34, NFM61 , VFM42 , SFM53 , VFM43,17E,VFM49,SFM60,CFM19,VFM54

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:20 am

UzayAltay wrote:My Suggestion :
Revived Player Will be voteless , wont count at majority , cant whisper or whispered to , and cant be healed by Doctor.

This only leaves retri with problem mediums would be confirmed , which should be solved via A medium rework IMO .
This will encourage Another way of playing : keep Revive until an important role die . For example , reviving Mayor wont Do anything Except confirming ret/Med . So , This rework has The potential broke " revive n2 " Meta .Retris Will still revive If there is A Med claim ( until Med is reworked ) , or they are Under pressure , but it Will be much less .


No votes? IMO that defeats the purpose of calling the revived player "alive".

I think "light-side necromancer" is a better implementation of the same concept.

UzayAltay wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Amnesiac is also a swingy role and should probably be reworked into Double.


Hadn't heard of Double before, but now that I've found it...

I think that role comes unfortunately close to simply being "player not appearing in this game." It kills one person; one person is now out of the game; and the rolelist is now exactly as it was before except with the Double gone. The *player* who is gone isn't the same player who was playing Double, but that hardly matters.

Kirize12 wrote:Personally I think Trauma Patient is a bit less swingy than Town Necro.


I'm worried about Trauma Patient being weaker than just having another copy of another role ingame from the start (by the number of nights it takes for someone to die, plus one night to remember). The Town Necro compensates for this by having the flexibility to pick a different role every night, once he gets going. More swingy, probably, but it needs the extra strength to stay competitive with the other town roles.


Yes , double can be played Like that ( shoot A Player which wont protected night 1 ) , but I am Pretty sure not All players Will Do that , even though most of time We Will see A Night 1 double kill and Game Will continue .
We Will see players claim surv as double and try joining winning faction later .
We Will see players hesitant to shoot night 1 with afraid Another double can attack there as well ( If two double attack Same target Same night , they die and lose )
We Will see players that want to join scum faction , so Wait until A scum is outed on a TvS interaction and Than shot scum If town is lynched .
We Will see players that Wait until A faction is winning .
Even though most of time that wont happen , these can happen , and it is much More balanced Than amnesiac , even though not " 0 swing "


The only one of those scenarios that doesn't work out to be "player not appearing in this game" (from the perspective of non-Double players) is the one where he kills a scum that is going to be lynched anyway... and in that scenario, he works out the same as Amnesiac choosing scum. (Not that that scenario will happen much, since there's too much risk of a Jailor or Vigilante killing that scum at night.)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby UzayAltay » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:04 pm

Spoiler:
Brilliand wrote:
UzayAltay wrote:My Suggestion :
Revived Player Will be voteless , wont count at majority , cant whisper or whispered to , and cant be healed by Doctor.

This only leaves retri with problem mediums would be confirmed , which should be solved via A medium rework IMO .
This will encourage Another way of playing : keep Revive until an important role die . For example , reviving Mayor wont Do anything Except confirming ret/Med . So , This rework has The potential broke " revive n2 " Meta .Retris Will still revive If there is A Med claim ( until Med is reworked ) , or they are Under pressure , but it Will be much less .


No votes? IMO that defeats the purpose of calling the revived player "alive".

I think "light-side necromancer" is a better implementation of the same concept.

UzayAltay wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Amnesiac is also a swingy role and should probably be reworked into Double.


Hadn't heard of Double before, but now that I've found it...

I think that role comes unfortunately close to simply being "player not appearing in this game." It kills one person; one person is now out of the game; and the rolelist is now exactly as it was before except with the Double gone. The *player* who is gone isn't the same player who was playing Double, but that hardly matters.

Kirize12 wrote:Personally I think Trauma Patient is a bit less swingy than Town Necro.


I'm worried about Trauma Patient being weaker than just having another copy of another role ingame from the start (by the number of nights it takes for someone to die, plus one night to remember). The Town Necro compensates for this by having the flexibility to pick a different role every night, once he gets going. More swingy, probably, but it needs the extra strength to stay competitive with the other town roles.


Yes , double can be played Like that ( shoot A Player which wont protected night 1 ) , but I am Pretty sure not All players Will Do that , even though most of time We Will see A Night 1 double kill and Game Will continue .
We Will see players claim surv as double and try joining winning faction later .
We Will see players hesitant to shoot night 1 with afraid Another double can attack there as well ( If two double attack Same target Same night , they die and lose )
We Will see players that want to join scum faction , so Wait until A scum is outed on a TvS interaction and Than shot scum If town is lynched .
We Will see players that Wait until A faction is winning .
Even though most of time that wont happen , these can happen , and it is much More balanced Than amnesiac , even though not " 0 swing "


The only one of those scenarios that doesn't work out to be "player not appearing in this game" (from the perspective of non-Double players) is the one where he kills a scum that is going to be lynched anyway... and in that scenario, he works out the same as Amnesiac choosing scum. (Not that that scenario will happen much, since there's too much risk of a Jailor or Vigilante killing that scum at night.)

Can you explain why my idea is worse than other idea you mention? I saw that idea, but it is too dependent on what roles dies early, which retri dont have control. If , for example, bg,Escort, veteran die early, it is good, but what if jailor, mayor, medium dies early? You are probably lynched at close time. My idea gives retri more option, they can play it like early revive and become confirmed, or risk Dying and wait for a bigger chance. It can also used with " full night for revive " nerf, which make retri much strategic.

About double, first, vigilante killing same scum give double no problem. ( double only fails if their target survive, or another DOUBLE shot same target. Jailor can be a problem but not much, because Bullet wont wasted.
Second, at that case it Swing less than amnesiac. At amnesiac, Lynch is used, at double Lynch isnt used and town can Lynch another evil.
And if "People not appearing in game " is a problem, Just add "you cant shoot night 1" and problem solved.
22-25 Spoiler: Town Games(14-17)

NFM 50 , NFM 51 ,NFM52 , 14D , 14 E , NFM 54 ,14H ( AF ) ,14G , NFM 55 , NFM 56 , 15C , NFM 57,NFM 58,15F,SFM45,16B , VFM36 , 16D , SFM 47 , VFM38 , NFM62 , 16G ,VFM 39,EpisodeXVII , 17B , 17C , VFM44 , 17D , 17F,18C,18D

Scum Games (8-8)

NFM 48 , NFM 49 , TFM 65 ,TFM 66 , Episode XV ,TFM68 ,VFM 34, NFM61 , VFM42 , SFM53 , VFM43,17E,VFM49,SFM60,CFM19,VFM54

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:03 pm

UzayAltay wrote:Can you explain why my idea is worse than other idea you mention? I saw that idea, but it is too dependent on what roles dies early, which retri dont have control. If , for example, bg,Escort, veteran die early, it is good, but what if jailor, mayor, medium dies early? You are probably lynched at close time. My idea gives retri more option, they can play it like early revive and become confirmed, or risk Dying and wait for a bigger chance. It can also used with " full night for revive " nerf, which make retri much strategic.


Confirmability is a bad thing; it's better if the reworked Ret doesn't have a way to instaconfirm themselves. This doesn't mean they will be autolynched, it means the town will have to think about whether to lynch them.

Having a living player who is unable to vote is frankly messy. If they can't vote, they're effectively dead, so it's better that the game describe them as "dead".

Having the Retri act every night instead of just once means that instead of having to make the big choice between reviving the first role that comes along or waiting for something big, the retri always averages the two... making do with whatever comes along at first, then getting the benefit of the big role when it becomes available. (Leaving out the question of which roles would be useful vs. useless for now, since we never really settled that question.)

UzayAltay wrote:About double, first, vigilante killing same scum give double no problem. ( double only fails if their target survive, or another DOUBLE shot same target. Jailor can be a problem but not much, because Bullet wont wasted.
Second, at that case it Swing less than amnesiac. At amnesiac, Lynch is used, at double Lynch isnt used and town can Lynch another evil.
And if "People not appearing in game " is a problem, Just add "you cant shoot night 1" and problem solved.


Your concept of Double doesn't match the one in the thread I linked to (though you are right about the Vigi not mattering, I misremembered that). As for the Jailor: "If the Double's shot fails for any given reason or is killed during the night of its conversion, the Double will lose." - and as for the Double: I see no mention of the double losing if two doubles shoot the same target. Are you trying to propose a different version of Double from what the thread describes?

"Person not appearing in this game" is a problem regardless of what night it happens on, though. At best, the Double is relocating a player to a different name, while also confirming to the Town that a particular role exists in the game. That is... not much effect on the game, either way.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:32 pm

A player should never be voteless at any point in the game. Votes are a core mechanic of the game, you can't go around taking away core mechanics.

Same deal for whispers.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby UzayAltay » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:03 am

Spoiler:
Brilliand wrote:
UzayAltay wrote:Can you explain why my idea is worse than other idea you mention? I saw that idea, but it is too dependent on what roles dies early, which retri dont have control. If , for example, bg,Escort, veteran die early, it is good, but what if jailor, mayor, medium dies early? You are probably lynched at close time. My idea gives retri more option, they can play it like early revive and become confirmed, or risk Dying and wait for a bigger chance. It can also used with " full night for revive " nerf, which make retri much strategic.


Confirmability is a bad thing; it's better if the reworked Ret doesn't have a way to instaconfirm themselves. This doesn't mean they will be autolynched, it means the town will have to think about whether to lynch them.

Having a living player who is unable to vote is frankly messy. If they can't vote, they're effectively dead, so it's better that the game describe them as "dead".

Having the Retri act every night instead of just once means that instead of having to make the big choice between reviving the first role that comes along or waiting for something big, the retri always averages the two... making do with whatever comes along at first, then getting the benefit of the big role when it becomes available. (Leaving out the question of which roles would be useful vs. useless for now, since we never really settled that question.)

UzayAltay wrote:About double, first, vigilante killing same scum give double no problem. ( double only fails if their target survive, or another DOUBLE shot same target. Jailor can be a problem but not much, because Bullet wont wasted.
Second, at that case it Swing less than amnesiac. At amnesiac, Lynch is used, at double Lynch isnt used and town can Lynch another evil.
And if "People not appearing in game " is a problem, Just add "you cant shoot night 1" and problem solved.


Your concept of Double doesn't match the one in the thread I linked to (though you are right about the Vigi not mattering, I misremembered that). As for the Jailor: "If the Double's shot fails for any given reason or is killed during the night of its conversion, the Double will lose." - and as for the Double: I see no mention of the double losing if two doubles shoot the same target. Are you trying to propose a different version of Double from what the thread describes?

"Person not appearing in this game" is a problem regardless of what night it happens on, though. At best, the Double is relocating a player to a different name, while also confirming to the Town that a particular role exists in the game. That is... not much effect on the game, either way.

About double , yes , I misremembered The sentence as " You lose If You lose your bullet " or sth Like that .Jailor is A problem for double Like You Said . People not appearing in Game isnt A problem at night 2 shot : they have 1 night and 1 Day time to play , and even n1 Kills are worse Than that . Also If they shot A non-claimer ( say Invest ) at there , it Result 2 night of information being Lost for town , which can change The Game .
Light Side necromancer Will Almost always lynched Unless Roles dies early can confirm they easily .
( Doc/BG If they make A Save , Sheriff If they find sb suspicious , Invest/LO , Veteran If they was visited , Vigilante , Escort/Trans ) . If none of these role dies early , they Will Eventually lynched as More as they stayed at RT claim ( A TS flipping , or A not-town claiming TS ) and not confirmed by TI in practice .Like What happens If A Sheriff comes with 2 NS claim at Day 3 when pressured : In theory , town think about it but in practice , they are Almost always lynched . And worse , Retri have no control on who dies , which is different from Sheriff checking Player .
I know confirmability is bad , and If We want to Get rid of from it Completely , just Replace it with Trauma Patient .

@Kirize , Unless You want to argue revived Player isnt as confirmed as revealed Mayor , or Mayor should have whispers , I cant see A counterargument about Why whispers shouldnt removed from revived Player .
About votes , Yes , votes are A core mechanic which was touched before , and I didnt see anyone saying GA is a bad role Because it prevents one Player voted for .( One alive Player voted for is as core as one Player vote )
22-25 Spoiler: Town Games(14-17)

NFM 50 , NFM 51 ,NFM52 , 14D , 14 E , NFM 54 ,14H ( AF ) ,14G , NFM 55 , NFM 56 , 15C , NFM 57,NFM 58,15F,SFM45,16B , VFM36 , 16D , SFM 47 , VFM38 , NFM62 , 16G ,VFM 39,EpisodeXVII , 17B , 17C , VFM44 , 17D , 17F,18C,18D

Scum Games (8-8)

NFM 48 , NFM 49 , TFM 65 ,TFM 66 , Episode XV ,TFM68 ,VFM 34, NFM61 , VFM42 , SFM53 , VFM43,17E,VFM49,SFM60,CFM19,VFM54

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:22 pm

Mayor should have whispers. Every role should be able to talk, vote, and whisper at all times unless no one else can.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:48 am

I think we should also avoid the trauma patient solution. It is just an auto town amnesiac and does nothing to let the dead still interact which is what this role is all about. If this role is done well, it will make the game more fun for the living and the dead, otherwise it will either break the game or be boring as hell.

If it isn't obvious, I really don't like the trama patient idea.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:29 am

UzayAltay wrote:About double , yes , I misremembered The sentence as " You lose If You lose your bullet " or sth Like that .Jailor is A problem for double Like You Said . People not appearing in Game isnt A problem at night 2 shot : they have 1 night and 1 Day time to play , and even n1 Kills are worse Than that . Also If they shot A non-claimer ( say Invest ) at there , it Result 2 night of information being Lost for town , which can change The Game .


"Person not appearing in this game" means: The game plays out essentially the same as if the game was a 14-player game from the start, without the Double in it. A 14-player game is no less balanced than a 15-player game, but if we wanted Town of Salem to have 14-player games sometimes (we don't), we should just make it that way, not add roles that effectively reduce the game to 14 players indirectly.

It doesn't matter exactly how much time the Double and the Double-killed player get individually, they problem is that they add up to one player from the perspective of everyone else. (Except for the potential to lose some nights of TI info or shuffle an evil to a different location, both of which are anti-town effects.)

UzayAltay wrote:Light Side necromancer Will Almost always lynched Unless Roles dies early can confirm they easily .


Do your games usually involve everyone who isn't confirmed being lynched? Mine don't. I've found that a town faced with two unconfirmed Doctor claims (with no way to test them i.e. a lookout) will usually save those lynches for last. Even Medium claims pass fairly often, so long as there's someone more suspicious to focus on (such as a nonclaimer).

UzayAltay wrote:I know confirmability is bad , and If We want to Get rid of from it Completely , just Replace it with Trauma Patient .


Trauma Patient is underpowered. No matter which role it picks to duplicate, the town would have been better off just having that role from the start. (I suppose that isn't a factor if the role it duplicates is unique, but justifying it that way implies that the role's only value is to make an exception to another role's Unique restriction, which strikes me as rather shitty.)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:01 am

StrahmDude wrote:I think we should also avoid the trauma patient solution. It is just an auto town amnesiac and does nothing to let the dead still interact which is what this role is all about. If this role is done well, it will make the game more fun for the living and the dead, otherwise it will either break the game or be boring as hell.

If it isn't obvious, I really don't like the trama patient idea.

The point isn't to allow the dead to still interact with the living, the point is to subvert the power of the mafia kill retroactively. Dead interacting with the living is accomplished through Medium, and while it's a good mechanic it 's not good if we need to sacrifice balance to do it.

You can say whatever you like about Trauma Patient but it's the only one that doesn't have some form of flaw, that's not an opinion that's a fact.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:05 pm

Kirize12 wrote:You can say whatever you like about Trauma Patient but it's the only one that doesn't have some form of flaw, that's not an opinion that's a fact.


It has the flaw of being strictly underpowered when rolled in a Random Town slot. That's pretty serious imo.

By "strictly underpowered" I mean that it isn't underpowered merely because the other roles are stronger, it's underpowered because it takes whatever strength the other roles have and automatically gives less than that.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:58 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:You can say whatever you like about Trauma Patient but it's the only one that doesn't have some form of flaw, that's not an opinion that's a fact.


It has the flaw of being strictly underpowered when rolled in a Random Town slot. That's pretty serious imo.

By "strictly underpowered" I mean that it isn't underpowered merely because the other roles are stronger, it's underpowered because it takes whatever strength the other roles have and automatically gives less than that.

If anything, Trauma Patient comes back stronger. Imagine scum PR-hunt the investigative and kill them, and now the invest is back and could be literally anyone.
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