Get rid of the Retributionist Role

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Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby XCodeLyokoX » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:39 am

I'm sure everyone can empathize with me when I say that whenever I get a mafia role in a ranked game I groan internally. Unless town is savant or consists of trolls...the town win rate is close 90% each game play. Mafia stands no real chance of winning,and if you're NK? ha! you might as well leave. Something needs to be done to level the playing field a bit. I think it should start with the banishment of the Retri role. As mafia, its a team of 4 vs a team of 9 townies! That's already a big advantage...And for NK its 1 vs 9 townies. Why in the world does town need a ret when they already have an advantage? they don't...They have enough people and OP roles as it is...Jailor,Mayor,etc.Please make ranked fun again and get rid of this role :(
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby KatiyaKramer » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:11 am

Remove from Ranked, but not from the entire game.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Sylek » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:07 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:Remove from Ranked, but not from the entire game.

I agree that it should be left in game, as it can make some games more interesting. It can give town some extra power by undoing the work of the mafia/nk, but the point is to bring someone back.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby legacyofnick » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:54 pm

Change it so that the retributionist sacrifices himself to revive the dead person. This still supplies the role of bringing someone back from the dead (intended) but doesn't allow town to get additional voting power (town regaining a vote). This makes the choice of who you bring back more important as you must bring back someone who can change the game in town's favor.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Zyprexa2024 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:49 am

legacyofnick wrote:Change it so that the retributionist sacrifices himself to revive the dead person. This still supplies the role of bringing someone back from the dead (intended) but doesn't allow town to get additional voting power (town regaining a vote). This makes the choice of who you bring back more important as you must bring back someone who can change the game in town's favor.


I love this idea, it would make ret so much less OP, as right now if there is a ret mafia's only hope is to accidentally kill and clean jailor early on.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby WindBlqde » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:42 pm

This is coming from a player who rarely plays ranked.

I wouldn't want Retributionist to be removed from the game entirely - I mainly play All Any and it helps make the game really fun. I'm in full support of legacyofnick's ret idea. You should post it in Role Ideas, I'm sure there will be few objections.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby wozearly » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:32 pm

...but if the Ret sacrifices himself for someone AFK, that's an unexpected (and unfair) shaft to the Town.

Also, it's not much fun for the Ret - "Your role is to keep hidden until you're able to sacrifice yourself to bring back someone who will be confirmed and actually has useful abilities. Just pray they're not dumb or AFK."

There have been a variety of alternative suggestions to make the life of the Retri and/or the revived person more difficult while keeping the general spirit of the role intact. For example:

1) Changing priority of the resurrect to be below killing, so a Ret attacked on the night they attempt to revive will not bring anyone back.
2) Making the Ret permanently unable to speak or whisper (similar to blackmailed) after resurrecting, so they cannot easily confirm themselves afterwards by whispering the revived target and have to run the risk of revealing themselves first (dovetails nicely with the first suggestion). Also has the amusing side-effect of making a silent defence on the stand a viable option in games with a confirmed but unidentified retri.
3) Making the resurrected Town member permanently unable to speak or whisper (similar to blackmailed), so they cannot share information from the dead or be used as a whisper co-ordinator
4a) Preventing the resurrected Town member from voting, so Town gains their ability but not their voting power
4b) Preventing the resurrected Town member from using their abilities, so Town only gains the voting power


Removing roles from the game, or from specific modes, really should be a last resort.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Zyprexa2024 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:59 am

wozearly wrote:...but if the Ret sacrifices himself for someone AFK, that's an unexpected (and unfair) shaft to the Town.

Also, it's not much fun for the Ret - "Your role is to keep hidden until you're able to sacrifice yourself to bring back someone who will be confirmed and actually has useful abilities. Just pray they're not dumb or AFK."

There have been a variety of alternative suggestions to make the life of the Retri and/or the revived person more difficult while keeping the general spirit of the role intact. For example:

1) Changing priority of the resurrect to be below killing, so a Ret attacked on the night they attempt to revive will not bring anyone back.
2) Making the Ret permanently unable to speak or whisper (similar to blackmailed) after resurrecting, so they cannot easily confirm themselves afterwards by whispering the revived target and have to run the risk of revealing themselves first (dovetails nicely with the first suggestion). Also has the amusing side-effect of making a silent defence on the stand a viable option in games with a confirmed but unidentified retri.
3) Making the resurrected Town member permanently unable to speak or whisper (similar to blackmailed), so they cannot share information from the dead or be used as a whisper co-ordinator
4a) Preventing the resurrected Town member from voting, so Town gains their ability but not their voting power
4b) Preventing the resurrected Town member from using their abilities, so Town only gains the voting power


Removing roles from the game, or from specific modes, really should be a last resort.


first off, if you are worried about roles not being fun, then change mafioso, medium, TPs and such to be less boring. I would say do 2/3 (they are the same) and I think you are right in that it should just be nerfed.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Yemac » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:33 am

Stop suggesting that ret should sacrifice themselves. It still confirms too much and if I got ret, I wouldn't wanna revive someone only to die. It's just stupid. You basically die by N2 and it makes retri's not want to revive (and if you say 'well that's the point' then why not remove ret?). By the way, it makes it for evils impossible to claim or cc ret because ret dies.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby sneckie88 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:44 am

Yemac wrote:Stop suggesting that ret should sacrifice themselves. It still confirms too much and if I got ret, I wouldn't wanna revive someone only to die. It's just stupid. You basically die by N2 and it makes retri's not want to revive (and if you say 'well that's the point' then why not remove ret?). By the way, it makes it for evils impossible to claim or cc ret because ret dies.


No, bin the Ret altogether, even outside of Ranked. Its a piece of shit OP role that literally destroys an entire mafia in 1 night. How can you allow a role that can single handidly end a game in 1 night be allowed? Mafia is already handicapped with crap roles like Framer and Disguiser. I would rather see Amne added to the NE list and Ret removed than leave it like it is. Mafia have like a 2% win rate in a game with a ret and even then thats only if the retted player is afk or if the mafia block the ret (but are normally busted by an LO)
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:59 pm

No role should be removed from specific gamemodes. Just replace it with Trapper so it'll work in all gamemodes, and make Trapper Jailor and Mayor part of town power.

Para's retributionist also works PROVIDED ONLY that it is in Town power, and not town protective.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Watt20I5 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:11 am

Kirize12 wrote:No role should be removed from specific gamemodes. Just replace it with Trapper so it'll work in all gamemodes, and make Trapper Jailor and Mayor part of town power.

Para's retributionist also works PROVIDED ONLY that it is in Town power, and not town protective.

uwu town power

I think town power would actually fix alot of these issues people have. The only issue is that creates the other problem with role diversity.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Yemac » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:20 am

Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Watt20I5 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:34 am

Yemac wrote:Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB

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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby KatiyaKramer » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:44 pm

Watt20I5 wrote:
Yemac wrote:Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB

R A N K E D - I S - N O T - T H E - O N L Y - M O D E

Exactly. Why remove or ruin a good role like Ret that is perfectly fine in all other game modes, because it's causing issues in Ranked?
All Any: It's meant to be unbalanced and chaotic. Ret fits in fine.
Classic: Meant to be newbie mode that sides with town on the win rates. Ret fits in fine.
Custom modes: Ret can be put in or removed depending on the list creator.
Coven modes: Not an expert on them, but I never really hear complaints about ret in them either. But the entire mode isn't exactly balanced.

The majority of people who want Ret removed from play are people who play Ranked.

So either just pull the role from Ranked, or change up the role list. :Shrug:
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Watt20I5 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:46 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:
Watt20I5 wrote:
Yemac wrote:Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB

R A N K E D - I S - N O T - T H E - O N L Y - M O D E

Exactly. Why remove or ruin a good role like Ret that is perfectly fine in all other game modes, because it's causing issues in Ranked?
All Any: It's meant to be unbalanced and chaotic. Ret fits in fine.
Classic: Meant to be newbie mode that sides with town on the win rates. Ret fits in fine.
Custom modes: Ret can be put in or removed depending on the list creator.
Coven modes: Not an expert on them, but I never really hear complaints about ret in them either. But the entire mode isn't exactly balanced.

The majority of people who want Ret removed from play are people who play Ranked.

So either just pull the role from Ranked, or change up the role list. :Shrug:

I could argue about it not being balanced in those modes but my point was changing slots wont fix the game overall.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:14 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:
Watt20I5 wrote:
Yemac wrote:Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB

R A N K E D - I S - N O T - T H E - O N L Y - M O D E

Exactly. Why remove or ruin a good role like Ret that is perfectly fine in all other game modes, because it's causing issues in Ranked?
All Any: It's meant to be unbalanced and chaotic. Ret fits in fine.
Classic: Meant to be newbie mode that sides with town on the win rates. Ret fits in fine.
Custom modes: Ret can be put in or removed depending on the list creator.
Coven modes: Not an expert on them, but I never really hear complaints about ret in them either. But the entire mode isn't exactly balanced.

The majority of people who want Ret removed from play are people who play Ranked.

So either just pull the role from Ranked, or change up the role list. :Shrug:

Ranked isn't the only mode is actually an argument AGAINST removing it from Ranked with no changes. If it isn't the only mode, its unbalance with not cease by removing it from Ranked.

Retributionist isn't in Classic, and it's not like Custom can choose to have "RT but not Ret". However, I agree with the point about All Any, thus the only solutions are:

1) Retributionist is made an "Arcade Role" and is only accessible in Chaos modes, including a new mode called Chaotic Custom
2) Retributionist is given an overhaul in all modes
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Flake » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:07 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
KatiyaKramer wrote:
Watt20I5 wrote:
Yemac wrote:Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB

R A N K E D - I S - N O T - T H E - O N L Y - M O D E

Exactly. Why remove or ruin a good role like Ret that is perfectly fine in all other game modes, because it's causing issues in Ranked?
All Any: It's meant to be unbalanced and chaotic. Ret fits in fine.
Classic: Meant to be newbie mode that sides with town on the win rates. Ret fits in fine.
Custom modes: Ret can be put in or removed depending on the list creator.
Coven modes: Not an expert on them, but I never really hear complaints about ret in them either. But the entire mode isn't exactly balanced.

The majority of people who want Ret removed from play are people who play Ranked.

So either just pull the role from Ranked, or change up the role list. :Shrug:

Ranked isn't the only mode is actually an argument AGAINST removing it from Ranked with no changes. If it isn't the only mode, its unbalance with not cease by removing it from Ranked.

Implying that Ret being balanced in modes other than Ranked/RP actually matters
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VFM37: Citizen - Loss (Lynched D2)
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:25 pm

Flake wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
KatiyaKramer wrote:
Watt20I5 wrote:
Yemac wrote:Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB

R A N K E D - I S - N O T - T H E - O N L Y - M O D E

Exactly. Why remove or ruin a good role like Ret that is perfectly fine in all other game modes, because it's causing issues in Ranked?
All Any: It's meant to be unbalanced and chaotic. Ret fits in fine.
Classic: Meant to be newbie mode that sides with town on the win rates. Ret fits in fine.
Custom modes: Ret can be put in or removed depending on the list creator.
Coven modes: Not an expert on them, but I never really hear complaints about ret in them either. But the entire mode isn't exactly balanced.

The majority of people who want Ret removed from play are people who play Ranked.

So either just pull the role from Ranked, or change up the role list. :Shrug:

Ranked isn't the only mode is actually an argument AGAINST removing it from Ranked with no changes. If it isn't the only mode, its unbalance with not cease by removing it from Ranked.

Implying that Ret being balanced in modes other than Ranked/RP actually matters

Nah just saying it.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby KatiyaKramer » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:57 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
KatiyaKramer wrote:
Watt20I5 wrote:
Yemac wrote:Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB

R A N K E D - I S - N O T - T H E - O N L Y - M O D E

Exactly. Why remove or ruin a good role like Ret that is perfectly fine in all other game modes, because it's causing issues in Ranked?
All Any: It's meant to be unbalanced and chaotic. Ret fits in fine.
Classic: Meant to be newbie mode that sides with town on the win rates. Ret fits in fine.
Custom modes: Ret can be put in or removed depending on the list creator.
Coven modes: Not an expert on them, but I never really hear complaints about ret in them either. But the entire mode isn't exactly balanced.

The majority of people who want Ret removed from play are people who play Ranked.

So either just pull the role from Ranked, or change up the role list. :Shrug:

Ranked isn't the only mode is actually an argument AGAINST removing it from Ranked with no changes. If it isn't the only mode, its unbalance with not cease by removing it from Ranked.

Retributionist isn't in Classic, and it's not like Custom can choose to have "RT but not Ret". However, I agree with the point about All Any, thus the only solutions are:

1) Retributionist is made an "Arcade Role" and is only accessible in Chaos modes, including a new mode called Chaotic Custom
2) Retributionist is given an overhaul in all modes

Ret can be in classic. There is a random town role in the role list and ret can spawn in that slot. The only roles that can't appear in that RT slot in classic are another jailor and Vampire Hunter.

And I've yet to see any overhaul for the ret that is remotely as good or as interesting as the current role. I find current ret fun, exciting and it adds a good turn to a game. It should just be pulled from ranked and remain as is for all other game modes, because the only gamemode where balance truly matters is Ranked.

Perhaps the Town Power alignment could come into play, so custom games could have the RT or TS option and not role Ret.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Flake » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:32 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Flake wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
KatiyaKramer wrote:
Watt20I5 wrote:
Yemac wrote:Or remove the TS spot and change it to RT or to NB

R A N K E D - I S - N O T - T H E - O N L Y - M O D E

Exactly. Why remove or ruin a good role like Ret that is perfectly fine in all other game modes, because it's causing issues in Ranked?
All Any: It's meant to be unbalanced and chaotic. Ret fits in fine.
Classic: Meant to be newbie mode that sides with town on the win rates. Ret fits in fine.
Custom modes: Ret can be put in or removed depending on the list creator.
Coven modes: Not an expert on them, but I never really hear complaints about ret in them either. But the entire mode isn't exactly balanced.

The majority of people who want Ret removed from play are people who play Ranked.

So either just pull the role from Ranked, or change up the role list. :Shrug:

Ranked isn't the only mode is actually an argument AGAINST removing it from Ranked with no changes. If it isn't the only mode, its unbalance with not cease by removing it from Ranked.

Implying that Ret being balanced in modes other than Ranked/RP actually matters

Nah just saying it.

It barely matters at all in modes other than Ranked/RP

In Custom you can just choose to not have it on it's own, and TPow should exist to prevent ret from rolling in RT/TS

All Any is supposed to be chaos

In Classic Ret can only roll in 1 RT slot, and even then Classic is supposed to cater more to Town, and emphasis on balance is low

In Dracula's Palace Retributionist is not nearly as good as it is in say a Ranked environment, and also emphasis on balance is low

In general an entire rework for a role which is fine for what it is in like every mode other than Ranked/RP is just going to get a huge amount of backlash from players who play said game modes

And on top of that the supposed "balanced Retributionist rework" would probably also be garbage, resulting like no one being happy and most (namely non-Ranked/rp players) being more unhappy than they otherwise would have been
Last edited by Flake on Wed May 01, 2019 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spoiler: 16C: Arsonist - Win (Lived)
VFM37: Citizen - Loss (Lynched D2)
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VFM46: Goon - Win (Lived)
17F: Bodyguard - Win (Lived)
VFM48: Goon - Win (Lived, Replaced in N5)
VFM49: Citizen - Loss (Died N2)
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VFM50: Goon - Win (Lived)
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby mdb1023 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:10 pm

Honestly, the role is incredibly broken, but the concept is kind of neat. I think the better way is to rework the role: make it so that the retributionist becomes the role it "revives" rather than just straight up reviving it. and maybe make it unable to do so on unique roles.
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby Flake » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:39 pm

mdb1023 wrote:Honestly, the role is incredibly broken, but the concept is kind of neat. I think the better way is to rework the role: make it so that the retributionist becomes the role it "revives" rather than just straight up reviving it. and maybe make it unable to do so on unique roles.

so trauma patient
FM Record: 11 - 4
Spoiler: 16C: Arsonist - Win (Lived)
VFM37: Citizen - Loss (Lynched D2)
16E: Veteran - Loss (Endgamed)
SFM47: Parity Cop - Win (Lived)
17D: Mafia Vig - Win (Died N2)
VFM46: Goon - Win (Lived)
17F: Bodyguard - Win (Lived)
VFM48: Goon - Win (Lived, Replaced in N5)
VFM49: Citizen - Loss (Died N2)
SFM58: Doctor-esque - Win (Lived)
VFM50: Goon - Win (Lived)
18B: Citizen - Win (Lived)
18C: Godfather - Win (Lived)
VFM52: Citizen - Win (Died N1)
SFM60: Citizen - Loss (Endgamed, Replaced in D4)
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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby mdb1023 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:57 pm

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Re: Get rid of the Retributionist Role

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed May 01, 2019 6:44 am

mdb1023 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWizDna1XO4
I’ve already commented my opinion about your idea, so I’m just going to link it here.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=55611&start=850#p3156639
If the link is broken or you don’t feel like clicking, the TL;DR version is that making Ret into a trauma patient would make it too similar to Amne to be able to justify both of them being in the same game.
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