Make bug allow Spy to see whispers the following day.

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Make bug allow Spy to see whispers the following day.

Postby Algus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:35 pm

Let me shut down spy hate right off the bat and say this: Your issue is not with spy, it's with Trash RM roles giving away free information, so go complain about those.

Onto my point. Blackmailer being able to see whispers flatout negates the classic spytest, so this is a non issue.

Bug in my opinion (besides the absurdly niche situations) is a useless tool in it's current state.
I have the perfect example to back this up. Bug mafia attack target. "Your target was attacked by the mafia"
...No fucking shit. You already knew that though because your innate ability tells you this. So even if that person is immune (which, honestly why is the town getting rid of a potential NK before the mafia anyway) it's absolutely redundant when that person shows up dead the next day.

Onto the proposal. It's themed as well so suck it basically: Make the whispers from the bugged target that night, readable by the spy the next day.

What does this accomplish? Well it's a small buff to blackmailer surprisingly and deception in general. More importantly it gives bugging a reliably useful function if say, 2 people are whispering each other frequently.

Basically though, why not?
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Re: Make bug allow Spy to see whispers the following day.

Postby MoreSatan » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:23 am

Spy is already op it nullifies many maf roles such as consort, disguiser, consig, Framer
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Re: Make bug allow Spy to see whispers the following day.

Postby Villagerlover » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:16 am

Just gonna clarify some stuff here:

The hate is very defined on the spy because it's entire concept is flawed (that being it's a living counter to the mafia that doesn't earn it's info, and instead gets it all for free).
Yes, a lot of the random mafia roles do suck. But it would be nice if for once their roles could actually be of the minimal value they hold without having the spy(s) breathing down their backs monitoring every movement and calling them out on it daily.

And to answer your question about our thoughts, I think your suggestion is a terrible idea because it will only feed into the Jailor meta. Why would a spy ever bother to bug anyone else when they could instead just bug some confirmed townies, and let the townies perform a spy test that they pass? This is terrible because it narrows down the spy to either being a "confirmed spy" or blackmailer, out of any other role it can't fake since it proved it's ability to read whispers.
None of this works.

I say we should just look for completely new overhauls for the spy, and to make the spy a role that can actually stand alone and earn it's information without being a direct counter to the mafia.
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Re: Make bug allow Spy to see whispers the following day.

Postby wozearly » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:21 pm

Algus wrote:Basically though, why not?


Villagerlover nailed the key points, but just to add/back up;

1) There are legitimate issues with the Spy. In all of the Spy variations, to a greater or lesser extent, ToS has been plagued with the problem of "Schrodinger's Spy". This is where the Spy's abilities are sufficiently dangerous to the Mafia and Neutrals that the fact that there *could* be a Spy in the game significantly affects how the non-Town factions play irrespective of whether there actually is a Spy or not. This was at its worst when Spies could read both whispers and Mafia chat, as the Mafia had to resort to all kinds of nonsense to communicate and co-ordinate with each other; really not ideal for an 'informed minority' faction.

2) Spies reading whispers was specifically removed to;

a) make it less easy for the Spy to confirm themselves as Spy/BM via spytesting (which is auto-confirmation if the RMs are known/dead)
b) make it less suicidal for BM to claim Spy and face the inevitable daily spytests and autoreveal if they became Mafioso
c) make it possible for other Mafia roles (and, to a lesser extent, Neutral roles wanting to reveal to the Mafia) to claim Spy
d) make it possible for the neutrals to communicate with other factions without instantly being outed as non-Town and lynched
e) allow the Vampires to convert a Spy without it being immediately revealed by spytesting

3) Bug doesn't generally produce much of value if you're using it at random, but can allow the Spy to confirm themselves and other roles. Knowing before the day begins that your target was attacked, attacked and healed, were or were not roleblocked, etc. allows you to confirm yourself with your target and, sometimes, confirm that someone else is or isn't lying. It's situational, and its value can be higher or lower depending on the roles in place, but it's not absurdly niche.

4) Spy remains undesirably lethal to NE/NK roles who are attacked by the Mafia. It's not usually in the interests of a fake Spy to reveal that the Mafia hit someone with night immunity (and they can't always be 100% sure the target wasn't jailed), so when a Spy makes the accusation then Town will typically believe it. At best, if the RMs both also visited, the neutral role can hope for a stay of execution while Town focuses elsewhere - but now has confirmed Town targets it can't afford to mess about with. More often than not, that's the end of the Exe/Witch/NK unless the Mafia are close to gaining majority.

5) In addition to reintroducing spytesting (albeit with a 1 day delay), your proposal would nerf Blackmailers who claimed Spy. With a confirmed Town member picked to make the whispers, if Town are able to place a Lookout on them then there's no credible way the Blackmailer is going to be pass the test of being seen to visit and the target not being blackmailed. Best case scenario is if there are other unconfirmed Spies, so if the BM does visit it'll confirm that there is a BM but not make clear which Spy claim is the BM. But in most cases, that's going to boil down to a 1v1 trade-off - not really a good situation for the Mafia to be in. Typically, the BM is better off if Town have no idea that a BM is in play and suspect a different type of RM as they stand to gain a lot of information from the whispers.

6) In addition to stiffing the Blackmailer, your proposal would also stiff the neutrals again. Witches, in particular, would carry a huge risk if they attempted to co-ordinate with another faction with a Spy (or even the possibility of a Spy) in-game. It would also make it impossible for neutrals to claim Spy, even in a Spy-free game.

As Town is not currently in need of a buff, and neither the Blackmailer nor the Neutrals in need of a nerf, I don't support the suggestion.
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Re: Make bug allow Spy to see whispers the following day.

Postby Zyprexa2024 » Thu May 09, 2019 6:59 am

Spy needs no change currently but a nerf. And I know, "you only hate spy because they out dumb maf roles" yeah your right. That's why spy needs changed, and the role list needs to be changed so that a double forger/double disg game never happens. If you don't have any useful mafia (consort, cosnsig, or jan) than you have almost no chance unless town has gone stupid.

Spy does not need a buff, BMer doesn't need more claim space, we don't need to add to the already stupidly OP jailor meta, and mafia are the ones who need a buff.

/NoSupport
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