Spy Nerf

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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:46 pm

Brilliand wrote:This thread is in the wrong subforum. It belongs in Role Ideas, alongside the several other spy rework suggestions there.

(This annoys me because I followed the rules with my spy rework suggestion, and why should you get to post yours in the subforum with higher visibility?)

For the benefit of curious people who haven't looked into Role Ideas for a while, here are some of the recent spy reworks suggested there:
Give the spy its old abilities back, with no bug
Make the spy a Tracker that targets roles instead of players
Make spy bugs permanent, and remove all the spy's non-bug abilities
Make the spy a Lookout that shows roles instead of players
Make spy bugs hear that player's whispers, and remove all the spy's non-bug abilities
Remove all the spy's non-bug abilities, without adding any buffs

Villagerlover can't move the thread independently. If the thread is in the wrong topic please report it instead of posting.

You, however, are guilty of breaking the rule of thread hijacking.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:13 am

Kirize12 wrote:Villagerlover can't move the thread independently. If the thread is in the wrong topic please report it instead of posting.

You, however, are guilty of breaking the rule of thread hijacking.


I see. My apologies, then. I'm... not quite sure I know which rule I broke here, but reporting is definitely a better response, now that you mention it.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Sylek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:14 am

Villagerlover wrote:
Sylek wrote:What about making spy a unique role? No chance of having two spies to confirm each other.


The last thing we need is another confirmed town role. I'd say no.

If spy is made unique, like mayor, jailor or veteran, then there can't be more than one. If there's only one, I'm not sure how it's a confirmed town. Not all games have a veteran, but if there is a vet there's only one. Spy could be the same.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:12 am

Sylek wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Sylek wrote:What about making spy a unique role? No chance of having two spies to confirm each other.


The last thing we need is another confirmed town role. I'd say no.

If spy is made unique, like mayor, jailor or veteran, then there can't be more than one. If there's only one, I'm not sure how it's a confirmed town. Not all games have a veteran, but if there is a vet there's only one. Spy could be the same.


The problem with unique roles is that evil roles can't risk claiming them. If the only unique spy comes out and decides to out everything the mafia are doing every night (which they usually do), then there's literally nothing that can be done about it for the mafia. They can't risk killing the spy too early without fear of getting caught/wasting time thanks to TP roles. They can't fake claim it because once there's a CC, town will know one of the two claims is lying. And there's enough roles that already do that.

The spy itself needs to be reworked or nerfed because it's entire ability to track every little thing the mafia does is absurdly unbalanced because it's just a hard counter to the mafia.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby shelboo » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:02 pm

Moderator Message: .
As per the stickied thread in Suggestions which is titled, "DO NOT USE THIS FORUM FOR ROLE CHANGES. USE LINK INSIDE"

TurdPile wrote:Do not use the Suggestions forums for Role Ideas or Role changes, use the Role Ideas forum instead: http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=27


Thread has been moved to Role Ideas. Topic creator has been notified.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby MoustachioMario » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:00 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
Sylek wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Sylek wrote:What about making spy a unique role? No chance of having two spies to confirm each other.


The last thing we need is another confirmed town role. I'd say no.

If spy is made unique, like mayor, jailor or veteran, then there can't be more than one. If there's only one, I'm not sure how it's a confirmed town. Not all games have a veteran, but if there is a vet there's only one. Spy could be the same.


The problem with unique roles is that evil roles can't risk claiming them. If the only unique spy comes out and decides to out everything the mafia are doing every night (which they usually do), then there's literally nothing that can be done about it for the mafia. They can't risk killing the spy too early without fear of getting caught/wasting time thanks to TP roles. They can't fake claim it because once there's a CC, town will know one of the two claims is lying. And there's enough roles that already do that.

The spy itself needs to be reworked or nerfed because it's entire ability to track every little thing the mafia does is absurdly unbalanced because it's just a hard counter to the mafia.


I'd say let spy know x-1 mafia visits where x is the amount of mafia left.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Sylek » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:32 am

So with GF, Mafioso, and 2 RM, they see the mafioso and 2 RM visit because GF doesn't visit? It does help a bit in the late game, but doesn't really help early on as spy still sees all maf visits until one of the killing roles dies.
Building off of the OP:
Doesn't see all maf visits
Can see all whispers again (like the BM'er)
Visits show bugs and whether visited by mafia (Janitor can clean away evidence of maf visits as different suggestion)
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby MoustachioMario » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:14 am

Sylek wrote:So with GF, Mafioso, and 2 RM, they see the mafioso and 2 RM visit because GF doesn't visit? It does help a bit in the late game, but doesn't really help early on as spy still sees all maf visits until one of the killing roles dies.
Building off of the OP:
Doesn't see all maf visits
Can see all whispers again (like the BM'er)
Visits show bugs and whether visited by mafia (Janitor can clean away evidence of maf visits as different suggestion)


I meant it sees x-1 visits

so if gf doesnt visit he sees 2 visits if all rm visit someone
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:49 pm

The problem with spy seeing mafia visits is quite simple it requires no skill, Spy is generally a poorly desgined role even reworking it will take a lot of work
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:40 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:The problem with spy seeing mafia visits is quite simple it requires no skill, Spy is generally a poorly desgined role even reworking it will take a lot of work


I don't think that's the problem. There's skill to be had in interpreting the messages and making decisions based on them.

Do you have a preferred spy rework idea?
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Mace8937 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:41 pm

Might as well change Psychic too because its "Spoonfed" to them as well
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:47 pm

Mace8937 wrote:Might as well change Psychic too because its "Spoonfed" to them as well


Maybe, but the problems with Psychic are much more minor because Psychic results are spread randomly over the whole town, while the Spy has tunnel vision on a specific group of evils that it gets complete information on Every. Single. Night.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:56 pm

Mace8937 wrote:Might as well change Psychic too because its "Spoonfed" to them as well

That is the collective goal of the balance community.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Mikemk » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:45 pm

Mace8937 wrote:Might as well change Psychic too because its "Spoonfed" to them as well

Except psychic visions are (at first) no more likely per particular person than randomly picking 3 people and saying one is evil would be.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:49 pm

I think it's funny how much Psychic manages to help the town when its results are frequently no more useful than "Here's a random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass".

The presence of Psychic in a game has the effect of stirring the Town into action and causing lazy townies to actually do their job... and that seems to be its primary purpose.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Villagerlover » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:51 pm

Brilliand wrote:I think it's funny how much Psychic manages to help the town when its results are frequently no more useful than "Here's a random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass".

The presence of Psychic in a game has the effect of stirring the Town into action and causing lazy townies to actually do their job... and that seems to be its primary purpose.


I think you're completely failing at realizing how terrible the Psychic really is.
It doesn't at all give a "random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass'. You're completely forgetting about the part where 1 of those 3 'random people' are 100% confirmed evil roles. No framing possibilities. No mishaps. No way to get out if it with a good play. You're confirmed evil.


The real funny part is supposed to be where a fake psychic is the one who pulls 3 random people out of their ass, and hopes to confuse town for days.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:03 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I think it's funny how much Psychic manages to help the town when its results are frequently no more useful than "Here's a random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass".

The presence of Psychic in a game has the effect of stirring the Town into action and causing lazy townies to actually do their job... and that seems to be its primary purpose.


I think you're completely failing at realizing how terrible the Psychic really is.
It doesn't at all give a "random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass'. You're completely forgetting about the part where 1 of those 3 'random people' are 100% confirmed evil roles. No framing possibilities. No mishaps. No way to get out if it with a good play. You're confirmed evil.


The real funny part is supposed to be where a fake psychic is the one who pulls 3 random people out of their ass, and hopes to confuse town for days.


The thing is, when a fake psychic pulls 3 random people out of their ass, they're pretty likely to be right. It isn't guaranteed, but it's highly probable (about an 80% chance). (This ignores the possibility of a Coven member intentionally making a list with no Coven in it, of course.)

So, any random Townie pulling a list of 3 people out of their ass would have quite good odds of providing Town with the same benefits the Psychic does, if the town would just follow them.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Villagerlover » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:09 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I think it's funny how much Psychic manages to help the town when its results are frequently no more useful than "Here's a random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass".

The presence of Psychic in a game has the effect of stirring the Town into action and causing lazy townies to actually do their job... and that seems to be its primary purpose.


I think you're completely failing at realizing how terrible the Psychic really is.
It doesn't at all give a "random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass'. You're completely forgetting about the part where 1 of those 3 'random people' are 100% confirmed evil roles. No framing possibilities. No mishaps. No way to get out if it with a good play. You're confirmed evil.


The real funny part is supposed to be where a fake psychic is the one who pulls 3 random people out of their ass, and hopes to confuse town for days.


The thing is, when a fake psychic pulls 3 random people out of their ass, they're pretty likely to be right. It isn't guaranteed, but it's highly probable (about an 80% chance). (This ignores the possibility of a Coven member intentionally making a list with no Coven in it, of course.)

So, any random Townie pulling a list of 3 people out of their ass would have quite good odds of providing Town with the same benefits the Psychic does, if the town would just follow them.


Where did you get this "80%" statistic? It came out of someone's ass ;p
Anyway, people should just learn the roles for Psychic that qualify as "evil" and "good"...or they could learn to play the game in general lol

This suggestion about the Spy Nerf is assuming that players are of about equal skill level, and depends on the role itself. I don't see how we could rework the spies hard-counter abilities without changing the role itself completely...which is probably what needs to be done.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:29 pm

Villagerlover wrote:Where did you get this "80%" statistic? It came out of someone's ass ;p


Number of players in a ranked game: 15
Number of townies in a ranked game: 9
Number of possible ways to pick 3 players at random out of all players: (15!/3!/12!)=455
Number of possible ways to pick 3 players at random out of just the townies: (9!/3!/6!)=84
% chance of picking only townies when picking 3 players at random out of all players: (84/455)*100%=18.46%
% chance of including an evil when picking 3 players at random: 100%-18.46%=81.54%

If I redo the calculations assuming that the fake psychic is a solo evil who won't list himself, the number changes to 76.92%.
If I redo the calculations assuming that the fake psychic is a faction evil who won't include anyone in his 4-member faction (but might include the NE or NK), the number changes to 49.09%.

Villagerlover wrote:This suggestion about the Spy Nerf is assuming that players are of about equal skill level, and depends on the role itself. I don't see how we could rework the spies hard-counter abilities without changing the role itself completely...which is probably what needs to be done.


I'm curious whether you consider my recent suggestion an example of "changing the role itself completely":

Make the spy a Tracker that targets roles instead of players
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