Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

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Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:37 am

I have no idea if this has been suggested before but I feel Mafia should be able to target another mafia member.

My reasoning is that without a Transporter, a Spy can easily narrow down who is mafia by seeing who the mafia visited but I feel Mafia roles should be able to target other mafia members to kind of help with that and maybe help in other ways too such as killing your own mafia member and cleaning them when they are suspected to make town unsure of how many mafia there are.

Agree? Disagree? Let me know. I have some examples of how this could help mafia if you want, just ask.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:58 am

This sounds good in theory, but is a breeding ground for gamethrowers in practice. Here is a non-exhaustive list of the ways Mafia can gamethrow if they target each other:

-Mafioso/GF intentionally killing their own teammates
-Framer framing the GF so that he pings as suspicious to the Sheriff
-Consort continuously roleblocking the Mafioso/GF so they can’t kill, Consig so they can’t look for roles, or any other important member of the Mafia so they can’t do their thing.
-Blackmailer blackmailing his own crew so they can’t speak, especially when the Town is sus of them.
Forger/Janitor wasting their charges on Mafia members who probably aren’t going to die.

So /nosupport on this change. Way too dangerous.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby NyanCats4Days » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:23 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:This sounds good in theory, but is a breeding ground for gamethrowers in practice. Here is a non-exhaustive list of the ways Mafia can gamethrow if they target each other:

-Mafioso/GF intentionally killing their own teammates
-Framer framing the GF so that he pings as suspicious to the Sheriff
-Consort continuously roleblocking the Mafioso/GF so they can’t kill, Consig so they can’t look for roles, or any other important member of the Mafia so they can’t do their thing.
-Blackmailer blackmailing his own crew so they can’t speak, especially when the Town is sus of them.
Forger/Janitor wasting their charges on Mafia members who probably aren’t going to die.

So /nosupport on this change. Way too dangerous.


Isn't that why the report button is a thing?

Isn't that why banning is a thing?

The chances of someone killing own team mates is the same chance of someone revealing all mafia names to the town

Just report it
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:35 pm

NyanCats4Days wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:This sounds good in theory, but is a breeding ground for gamethrowers in practice. Here is a non-exhaustive list of the ways Mafia can gamethrow if they target each other:

-Mafioso/GF intentionally killing their own teammates
-Framer framing the GF so that he pings as suspicious to the Sheriff
-Consort continuously roleblocking the Mafioso/GF so they can’t kill, Consig so they can’t look for roles, or any other important member of the Mafia so they can’t do their thing.
-Blackmailer blackmailing his own crew so they can’t speak, especially when the Town is sus of them.
Forger/Janitor wasting their charges on Mafia members who probably aren’t going to die.

So /nosupport on this change. Way too dangerous.
Isn't that why the report button is a thing?

Isn't that why banning is a thing?

The chances of someone killing own team mates is the same chance of someone revealing all mafia names to the town

Just report it
The game already has mechanics in place that discourage griefing/gamehthrowing. Not allowing Mafia roles to target each other counts among them. You wouldn't put a button in place that allows an Arsonist to douse themselves without a Witch/Trans, so I don't see why we should put a button that allows Mafiosos to intentionally kill their teammates.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby NyanCats4Days » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:47 pm

3 people left

Transporter

Framer

Mafioso

You see why the mafioso should target the framer?

Mafia needs a buff. And this is it
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Mikemk » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:28 pm

NyanCats4Days wrote:3 people left

Transporter

Framer

Mafioso

You see why the mafioso should target the framer?

Mafia needs a buff. And this is it

No, mafioso should not attack, and then lynch the transporter.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Flake » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:38 pm

NyanCats4Days wrote:3 people left

Transporter

Framer

Mafioso

You see why the mafioso should target the framer?

:ThinkWut:

I get your point in saying that the option of attacking a Mafia team mate might be beneficial to Mafia in situational circumstances

But this is one of the worst examples you could've possibly given
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Villagerlover » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:11 pm

I see no real reason to implement this at all.

The only "good" I can see coming from this is to deceive spies. But I don't think the Spy should even be allowed to see mafia visits at all cause it just hard counters them.
So overall, it doesn't make sense to me to come up with a hard counter to a hard counter.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby NyanCats4Days » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:19 pm

Villagerlover wrote:I see no real reason to implement this at all.

The only "good" I can see coming from this is to deceive spies. But I don't think the Spy should even be allowed to see mafia visits at all cause it just hard counters them.
So overall, it doesn't make sense to me to come up with a hard counter to a hard counter.


If spy cant see mafia and coven visits I would literally cry everytime I get spy because bugs barely even help.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Flake » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:25 pm

Villagerlover wrote:I see no real reason to implement this at all.

The only "good" I can see coming from this is to deceive spies. But I don't think the Spy should even be allowed to see mafia visits at all cause it just hard counters them.
So overall, it doesn't make sense to me to come up with a hard counter to a hard counter.

This honestly

Spy is just mechanically a bad role as it is due to it being able to see Mafia visits
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Spoiler: VFM48: Mafia Goon - Win (Lived, Replaced in N5)
17F: Bodyguard - Win (Lived)
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SFM47: Parity Cop - Win (Lived)
16E: Veteran - Loss (Endgamed)
VFM37: Citizen - Loss (Lynched D2)
16C: Arsonist - Win (Lived)
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Mikemk » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:48 pm

Villagerlover wrote:I see no real reason to implement this at all.

The only "good" I can see coming from this is to deceive spies. But I don't think the Spy should even be allowed to see mafia visits at all cause it just hard counters them.
So overall, it doesn't make sense to me to come up with a hard counter to a hard counter.

What would be left for Spy? BMG doesn't remove roles with achievements, and yet bugging is useless.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Villagerlover » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:15 pm

Mikemk wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:I see no real reason to implement this at all.

The only "good" I can see coming from this is to deceive spies. But I don't think the Spy should even be allowed to see mafia visits at all cause it just hard counters them.
So overall, it doesn't make sense to me to come up with a hard counter to a hard counter.

What would be left for Spy? BMG doesn't remove roles with achievements, and yet bugging is useless.


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=97759
I legit just made this topic.
Could use some opinions over there
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:50 pm

There are no valid arguments against this proposal, therefore it should be implemented.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby testaccount1234 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:58 pm

James2 wrote:There are no valid arguments against this proposal, therefore it should be implemented.


Yes there is. Don't underestimate the stupidity of Town of Salem players.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby James2 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:33 am

Stupidity and gamethrowing are not valid reasons for restricting the freedom of action of other players.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:21 am

James2 wrote:Stupidity and gamethrowing are not valid reasons for restricting the freedom of action of other players.

^
This

Even if Spies did get changed/removed whatever, this change still needs to be implemented. But for Town of Salem's sake, only non-Killing actions should be able to target any Mafia. This means that when someone is performing the factional kill they can't attack other Mafiosi, but all other abilities even harmful ones such as framing/role blocking should be able to be performed at other Mafiosi. This would be a good way to nerf the Lookout/Transporter.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby James2 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:51 am

I don't see any reason why mafia killers shouldn't be able to target other mafia.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:58 am

James2 wrote:I don't see any reason why mafia killers shouldn't be able to target other mafia.
Because people will gamethrow much easier and much faster if you give them this opportunity. I’m sure you’ve seen how many Mafia members would just leave N1 before the ELO change, because they feel certain they’re going to lose. The problem would be orders of magnitude worse if they could just kill off all their teammates and then get themselves hanged, bypassing the ELO hit while ending the game as fast as they can.

Beyond gamethrowing, it could be used as an intimidation tactic where the GF (or Mafioso if there is no GF) forces everyone else to go along with their probably shitty plans, under the threat of death for noncompliance. I do not want to enable these douchebags to go on a power trip and fuck up the experience for the whole team.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby James2 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:15 am

James2 wrote:Stupidity and gamethrowing are not valid reasons for restricting the freedom of action of other players.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:48 am

You can’t quote away the impact that gamethrowers and stupid people have on the game. In fact, changes have been made recently to account for their actions because they impacted the game so much. So to suggest we should all just ignore the possibility of more rampant gamethrowing and stupidity as a result of a change that makes gamethrowing and stupidity easier to accomplish is osmium dense.

And before you give me the “just report it” line, know this: rules, under any system, are not a preventative measure for undesired behavior. The rules do not stop people from doing bad things. They only punish people for doing them after the fact. ToS’s Trial System is no exception.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Google » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:14 am

MysticMismagius wrote:This sounds good in theory, but is a breeding ground for gamethrowers in practice. Here is a non-exhaustive list of the ways Mafia can gamethrow if they target each other:

-Mafioso/GF intentionally killing their own teammates
-Framer framing the GF so that he pings as suspicious to the Sheriff
-Consort continuously roleblocking the Mafioso/GF so they can’t kill, Consig so they can’t look for roles, or any other important member of the Mafia so they can’t do their thing.
-Blackmailer blackmailing his own crew so they can’t speak, especially when the Town is sus of them.
Forger/Janitor wasting their charges on Mafia members who probably aren’t going to die.

So /nosupport on this change. Way too dangerous.

do a coven like thing were you cant target other mafia with things like killing
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:25 am

Google wrote:do a coven like thing were you cant target other mafia with things like killing
I assume you’re talking about the Potion Master and Necromancer, who can target other Coven members (and in Necromancer’s case, herself) with certain abilities of theirs. The abilities that these roles can target their teammates with are only protective abilities: the PM’s healing potion, and any dead TP role the Necromancer can reanimate.

How many healing abilities does the Mafia have? None. Equating this to the two Coven roles that can sometimes target their teammates doesn’t work.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Google » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:27 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
Google wrote:do a coven like thing were you cant target other mafia with things like killing
I assume you’re talking about the Potion Master and Necromancer, who can target other Coven members (and in Necromancer’s case, herself) with certain abilities of theirs. The abilities that these roles can target their teammates with are only protective abilities: the PM’s healing potion, and any dead TP role the Necromancer can reanimate.

How many healing abilities does the Mafia have? None. Equating this to the two Coven roles that can sometimes target their teammates doesn’t work.

Ambusher would work, disg would, Framer would as frames are obvious,
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:34 am

Google wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Google wrote:do a coven like thing were you cant target other mafia with things like killing
I assume you’re talking about the Potion Master and Necromancer, who can target other Coven members (and in Necromancer’s case, herself) with certain abilities of theirs. The abilities that these roles can target their teammates with are only protective abilities: the PM’s healing potion, and any dead TP role the Necromancer can reanimate.

How many healing abilities does the Mafia have? None. Equating this to the two Coven roles that can sometimes target their teammates doesn’t work.
Ambusher would work, Gonna give you this one. It kind of acts like Crusader without the defense.
disg would, why the actual fuck would you disguise as your own mafia? The only thing Disguiser does even a little bit well is pretend there are less dead Mafia than there actually are.
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Re: Allowing Mafia to target other Mafia

Postby Google » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:36 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
Google wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Google wrote:do a coven like thing were you cant target other mafia with things like killing
I assume you’re talking about the Potion Master and Necromancer, who can target other Coven members (and in Necromancer’s case, herself) with certain abilities of theirs. The abilities that these roles can target their teammates with are only protective abilities: the PM’s healing potion, and any dead TP role the Necromancer can reanimate.

How many healing abilities does the Mafia have? None. Equating this to the two Coven roles that can sometimes target their teammates doesn’t work.
Ambusher would work, Gonna give you this one. It kind of acts like Crusader without the defense.
disg would, why the actual fuck would you disguise as your own mafia? The only thing Disguiser does even a little bit well is pretend there are less dead Mafia than there actually are.
Framer would as frames are obvious, “HELL no!” - The Godfather

A fake consig lynch would be pretty good.
Frames can be useful boi
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