Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby Mathelete » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:53 am

ICECLIMBERS wrote:Don’t claim any role that isn’t town.


Unless you're amnesiac. That's a good claim cause it will usually get TP/LO on you. Town loves amnesiacs cause they balance the odds in their favor.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby Scientedfic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:19 am

Neutrals in general are wild cards. They can make or break a game against or for the mafia or town (or other neutrals!). However, the big thing about executioners is that they are specifically made to lynch a townie. This automatically places them against the town, which means that the town should probably eliminate you as a threat.
Oh shiz it's that Break the Chest guy who won't do a game.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby TechnoMotown » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:32 pm

LtMisty wrote:In my ranked matches, usually NE sides with maf ''cause they have helped'' or whatever reason, and to lose cause you didn't execute/lynch the NE early in the game, is just a shame.


This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, though. If you attempt to lynch the NE early on, then it is your fault they turned against you because you already turned against them. If town has the numbers to sacrifice one of their own, getting the Exe on their side can be hugely beneficial. But once you've burned a bridge, you have no chance of recovering it unless the Mafia does the same thing.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby KJYKJY1985 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:10 am

This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, though. If you attempt to lynch the NE early on, then it is your fault they turned against you because you already turned against them. If town has the numbers to sacrifice one of their own, getting the Exe on their side can be hugely beneficial. But once you've burned a bridge, you have no chance of recovering it unless the Mafia does the same thing.
Even assuming exe keeps their word, I don't see how trading someone with a potentially useful ability and who has to die for your defeat conditions for someone with no special ability and who doesn't have to die for your defeat conditions is ever worth it.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby TechnoMotown » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:49 pm

That makes no sense as a response to what I said.

You are clearly talking about early stage gameplay. Whereas the rest of us are referring to late stage when votes become that much more critical, and town likely already doesn’t have majority unless Exe sides with them.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby KJYKJY1985 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:58 pm

You are clearly talking about early stage gameplay. Whereas the rest of us are referring to late stage when votes become that much more critical, and town likely already doesn’t have majority unless Exe sides with them.
But the person you have to lynch to give the exe his win can vote too. I'm still not getting it. Perhaps it would help if you could describe a scenario where it would benefit the town to give the exe his win?
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby TechnoMotown » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:03 am

You’re forgetting one very important and CRITICAL factor.

Which is the following; Executioner possesses one very critical piece of strategic factor that any town that may be his target does not possess. That is: immunity. Even after the Executioner has secured their victory mafia still cannot kill them, but it also means that town killing them is useless. The point here is that if town can secure the allegiance of a victorious Executioner, they now have an unkillable ally and extra vote.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby KJYKJY1985 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:11 am

You’re forgetting one very important and CRITICAL factor.

Which is the following; Executioner possesses one very critical piece of strategic factor that any town that may be his target does not possess. That is: immunity. Even after the Executioner has secured their victory mafia still cannot kill them, but it also means that town killing them is useless. The point here is that if town can secure the allegiance of a victorious Executioner, they now have an unkillable ally and extra vote.
I still don't see how that's terribly helpful since the exe doesn't actually have to die for town to lose. Any situation where this would actually be a worthwhile trade-off seems incredibly contrived and unlikely. This is especially confusing given your earlier statement about not getting on the exe's bad side by trying to lynch them early when the default situation is that they'll vote with mafia to lynch their target. Can you describe a hypothetical scenario where lynching a townie to secure the exe's vote would work to the town's benefit?
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby TechnoMotown » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:58 pm

Now you’re just ignoring the facts to suit your own viewpoint.

The default situation isn’t anything. The Exe will vote with whoever to get their target lynched; this could even be town who vote to random lynch their target because they aren’t confirmed town.

The Exe not having to die for town to lose means nothing. The same goes for Survivor. At a certain point town has to start thinking about what they need to do to secure the victory. Alienating the neutrals isn’t something they should be doing. Every lynch, execution, vig shot wasted on the neutrals is another night the mafia survives to continue to secure their victory.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby KJYKJY1985 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:27 pm

Now you’re just ignoring the facts to suit your own viewpoint.
I can assure you I'm not being deliberately obtuse, nor am I coming at this from some anti-NE ideology. It's just trivially easy to imagine a scenario where the exe's defense is more than canceled out by the fact that he doesn't count as a body for town. It's difficult (for me at least) to imagine a scenario where the trade-off isn't a wash at best.
The default situation isn’t anything. The Exe will vote with whoever to get their target lynched; this could even be town who vote to random lynch their target because they aren’t confirmed town.
The only way the exe would feel genuinely indebted to the town is if the town knowingly lynched one of their own while they still had majority, which the town has no incentive to do. Unless you're imagining a scenario where the town unwittingly lynches the exe's target and the exe is so oozing with gratitude that they side with the town. That's silly. And even sillier by the fact that the exe has every reason to spread misinformation to cause that mislynch in the first place. So why not just "alienate" him right out of the picture right off the bat?
The Exe not having to die for town to lose means nothing.
You still haven't explained why this is, unless you're imagining getting the exe on your side by some other means than killing one of your own. Otherwise, what difference does it make if someone can't die if they aren't really "alive" to begin with?
Every lynch, execution, vig shot wasted on the neutrals is another night the mafia survives to continue to secure their victory.
No one's suggesting you should focus on the exe if you have a lead on NK or mafia/coven.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby Helicooler » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:03 pm

Y'know, if all us forum users come together, we could allow exes to act like survs and not lynch them while they stay open minded. We could actually make the game more fun if people just stopped being trolly in situations where they can actually make a difference.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby UzayAltay » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:57 pm

As I See , The thing which is discussed here is If We assume exe Will help town ( even This is not confirmed ) , it is More benefical to Keep exe alive and lynch town , right ?
It is simply wrong , Because even Exe cant be killed , exe Also Dont have any Night ability , which You can use If You stay town alive .
And Unless You want him siding with You ( with hanging their target ) , there is no benefit at keeping him alive Unless You had A better option .
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby TechnoMotown » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:04 am

KJYKJY1985 wrote:
I can assure you I'm not being deliberately obtuse, nor am I coming at this from some anti-NE ideology. It's just trivially easy to imagine a scenario where the exe's defense is more than canceled out by the fact that he doesn't count as a body for town. It's difficult (for me at least) to imagine a scenario where the trade-off isn't a wash at best. Therein lies the problem. Your thinking is so limited that you aren’t thinking about the strategic advantage of having immune ally. That immunity isn’t cancelled out by anything, it is the number one most important thing in the game that can only be countered by Werewolf or Arso. Exe not being a body for town is what makes them even more valuable. Nobody wasting a kill on the Exe meaning town will always have +1 votes. It is the same idea as when people give the Jester the win in exchange for killing someone suspicious, except it has more advantages.The only way the exe would feel genuinely indebted to the town is if the town knowingly lynched one of their own while they still had majority, which the town has no incentive to do. Unless you're imagining a scenario where the town unwittingly lynches the exe's target and the exe is so oozing with gratitude that they side with the town. That's silly. And even sillier by the fact that the exe has every reason to spread misinformation to cause that mislynch in the first place. So why not just "alienate" him right out of the picture right off the bat?This is the incentive town has. Exactly what we are currently talking about. No, if you read the rest of the thread, you would know that we are talking about town lynching exes target in exchange for their loyalty. Yeah, that’s why nobody but you was suggesting it. Alienating would be extremely stupid for reasons already stated. Chief among them being that killing Exe or actively trying to screw them over
provides absolutely no benefit for town. I remember a match in which town spent so much time trying to cause the Exe to lose that Mafia ended up winning.
You still haven't explained why this is, unless you're imagining getting the exe on your side by some other means than killing one of your own. Otherwise, what difference does it make if someone can't die if they aren't really "alive" to begin with?This statement doesn’t make much sense. Of course, the Exe is alive, what are you even trying to say? The town has mislynched its own people before, it would be far more advantageous if they were able to give up one of their own and get something in return.No one's suggesting you should focus on the exe if you have a lead on NK or mafia/coven.


Yet, there are people who do that. There’s a reason Exe is a neutral character and not a priority at all. If you don’t use every role in the match as strategically as possible, then you have missed an opportunity.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby Helicooler » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:24 pm

If people will insist in killing exes, that is taking away from the game experience. Maybe if they changed roles to surv or something people would actually stop this madness.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby KJYKJY1985 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:56 pm

That immunity isn’t cancelled out by anything, it is the number one most important thing in the game that can only be countered by Werewolf or Arso. Exe not being a body for town is what makes them even more valuable. Nobody wasting a kill on the Exe
Exactly. No one wastes their time killing an exe that's loyal to town, or would even if they weren't immune because they've already won after everyone else has died. That's what I meant when I said "they aren't really 'alive' to begin with." It sounds like you're contradicting yourself. It's almost like you're saying "Exe being less valuable makes him more valuable because no one will waste their time killing him."
meaning town will always have +1 votes.
It isn't +1 compared to the previous situation of having the exe's target alive.
It is the same idea as when people give the Jester the win in exchange for killing someone suspicious, except it has more advantages.
I don't see how this is a valid comparison since you don't have to willingly sacrifice one of your own to get the jester's help.
Alienating would be extremely stupid for reasons already stated. Chief among them being that killing Exe or actively trying to screw them over provides absolutely no benefit for town.
Well, killing the exe would provide the benifit of preventing the mafia or coven from effectively gaining majority one day sooner and by "screw them over" I can only assume you mean "not lynch a confirmed townie."
I remember a match in which town spent so much time trying to cause the Exe to lose that Mafia ended up winning.
This is a pretty vague statement. Perhaps you can provide the details of the match? I'd also really like some hypothetical situations where it's a clear benefit to the town to give the exe his win. This is actually what I'd like from you most.
The town has mislynched its own people before, it would be far more advantageous if they were able to give up one of their own and get something in return.
The difference is you would have to do it on purpose to get the exe's loyalty.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby TechnoMotown » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:36 pm

KJYKJY1985 wrote:
[b]Exactly. No one wastes their time killing an exe that's loyal to town, or would even if they weren't immune because they've already won after everyone else has died. That's what I meant when I said "they aren't really 'alive' to begin with." It sounds like you're contradicting yourself. It's almost like you're saying "Exe being less valuable makes him more valuable because no one will waste their time killing him." I never said Exe was less valuable. Your statements aren’t really making sense and you seem to be adding details that aren’t really there. Having an unkillable ally that people likely won’t consider killing is enormously valuable because it means that any town can live until the end against Mafia or Werewolf and still have a chance at winning.It isn't +1 compared to the previous situation of having the exe's target alive. It is +1 because Exe will still be alive whether the town helps them or not. Exe will have to side with somebody, and if it isn’t town then they just lost a vote that they could have secured.I don't see how this is a valid comparison since you don't have to willingly sacrifice one of your own to get the jester's help. I am not surprised you don’t see it since you are clearly doing very little thinking indeed. If the Jester ends up killing a townie then yeah they have willingly given up one of their own because the jester isn’t even alive to make them honoring the deal matter.Well, killing the exe would provide the benifit of preventing the mafia or coven from effectively gaining majority one day sooner and by "screw them over" I can only assume you mean "not lynch a confirmed townie." Actively trying to screw them over could mean a bunch of things based on the scenario. None of them being not doing something hence the term “actively”, this is what I mean by you not really thinking your answers through.This is a pretty vague statement. Perhaps you can provide the details of the match? I'd also really like some hypothetical situations where it's a clear benefit to the town to give the exe his win. This is actually what I'd like from you most. No, it isn’t. Again you just seem to be adverse to actually thinking things through. The statement illustrates my point. It’s almost always a clear benefit to help the Exe win. You just refuse to actually do any of the work yourself, everything needs to be laid out for you. All of your comments are basically that you don’t understand the thread, even though it isn’t really saying anything groundbreaking.The difference is you would have to do it on purpose to get the exe's loyalty.


No, the difference is that people would actually have to put more effort and thought into to every lynch rather than just voting guilty on everyone. As long as, again, you haven’t actively tried to screw over the Exe before their target was lynched, on purpose or otherwise, then you have a chance to secure their loyalty. For example, let’s say it’s a Mafia vs Town match only, and the Mafia tries to kill Exe n1, then town random lynches Exe target d2, then Exe will probably side with Town at that point.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby KJYKJY1985 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:38 pm

It is +1 because Exe will still be alive whether the town helps them or not.
But Exe won't vote with the town regardless of whether the town helps them or not.
Exe will have to side with somebody
No they don't. They could easily decide to abstain for the rest of the game.
If the Jester ends up killing a townie then yeah they have willingly given up one of their own because the jester isn’t even alive to make them honoring the deal matter.
If the Jester ends up killing a townie, it means you never secured their help to begin with. You haven't described a trade-off so much as a betrayal.
Actively trying to screw them over could mean a bunch of things based on the scenario. None of them being not doing something hence the term “actively”, this is what I mean by you not really thinking your answers through.
There are only two ways I can think of to screw over the Exe: 1)Not lynching their target and 2)Killing them via lynching or execution. I guess option 2 would fall into the "active" category. If there are other methods of screwing over the Exe, please list them.
No, it isn’t. Again you just seem to be adverse to actually thinking things through. The statement illustrates my point. It’s almost always a clear benefit to help the Exe win. You just refuse to actually do any of the work yourself, everything needs to be laid out for you. All of your comments are basically that you don’t understand the thread, even though it isn’t really saying anything groundbreaking.
Are you honestly suggesting I'm lying when I say I want you to describe the details of this match or how any of this would work in practice? Why? What am I supposed to make of the fact that you won't (or can't) describe any scenario where this would help? And if this were just common sense and not at all "groundbreaking," why don't you see any Exes coming out day 2 and asking the town to lynch their target in exchange for loyalty? I have never seen that tactic. Not once.
No, the difference is that people would actually have to put more effort and thought into to every lynch rather than just voting guilty on everyone.
You mean like making sure you don't screw up and lynch a townie, like the Exe wants you to?
As long as, again, you haven’t actively tried to screw over the Exe before their target was lynched, on purpose or otherwise, then you have a chance to secure their loyalty. For example, let’s say it’s a Mafia vs Town match only, and the Mafia tries to kill Exe n1, then town random lynches Exe target d2, then Exe will probably side with Town at that point.
Once again, I don't know what "actively screwing over the Exe" could mean that doesn't involve removing them from the picture entirely. But in a previous post I offered the hypothetical of the town lynching the Exe's target by accident and the Exe feeling grateful to the town anyway and you dismissed it as a non-sequitur. Is that what you're actually suggesting now? Why would the Exe "probably side with Town" if they helped him entirely by mistake? Do you think lynching the Exe's target is inevitable, so you might as well keep the Exe around or even lynch his target on purpose?
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby Litterial » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:32 pm

I would say you can lynch or execute a known Executioner if you don't have any other leads. Killing Executioner isn't necessary to win.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby WhiteGoblin222 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:28 am

It really depends on the situation. In ranked practice, I've seen a couple of confirmed Exe's lynched on day 3 or 4 with no maf deaths and no leads. It gave mafia a night to gain the majority. On the other hand, I've seen town lose because they can't lynch late game. The exe has won so they afk and no one can really kill them. The best option is to not lynch their target.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby Helicooler » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:32 pm

No necrobumpino. Thread ended with split decision, idiots who kill good exes and idiots who get them selves killed as exe and then leave. Thread may be locked, but OP hasnt been here since Tue Nov 27, 2018 so probs not.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby JaguarJumps » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:23 pm

Necrobumps literally don't hurt anyone, calm down.

Discussion can be had with or without OP being present. He does not own the thought.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby Helicooler » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:02 am

No, no necrobumpino because the thread died for a reason. I was saying the thread may be locked because I'm sure OP doesnt want an irritating argument that literally makes no sense to continue, but they are gone now.

if the thread died 3 months ago that means people lost interest in it and the argument is going nowhere, so don't.
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Why lynch or execute a known Executioner

Postby Timothytak » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:10 am

Depends on the car, with some of them you need to be very careful with the throttle, also with the brakes. Like in real life, you do not press the throttle to the metal with a high power road car for example and you neither stomp the brakes while turning in a corner. Which car are you using in the game?
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby PurpleBandit3000 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:24 am

Executioner is still against the Town and wants to lynch a Townie. Much better to kill the Exec and help the confirmed Town than help the Exec win and trust they'll vote with you later on, also losing a confirmed Townie in the process. Generally, Neutrals tend to side against helping Town win.

Then there are Maf, GF, or NK who claim Exec in the hope that they'll escape. In on All Any game I played, the guy claimed Exec on the stand and that I was his target (I was Vet). Town let him go and he turned out to be Maf and won. You never can be too sure.

I agree that SK and Maf are bigger threats, but if you don't have much else to go on, you can lynch the Exec and get them out of the way, thus preventing having to deal with a Jester later. Jailor also doesn't have to jail em and can focus on finding the killers.
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Re: Why lynch or execute a known Executioner?

Postby JaguarJumps » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:09 am

It truly depends on how the town treats the Executioner. The Executioner starts any match truly neutral, they do not really tend to do anything one way or the other until they respond to certain situations. However, you seem to be describing an altogether different scenario. If someone is suspicious enough to be put on trial and they claim Executioner, then they deserve to be guiltied. VFR is the only time and Exe claim should be deemed innocent.
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