Is VFR ever fair?

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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby dyaomaster » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:57 pm

Tharok wrote:
Helicooler wrote:It can be unbalanced each way, depending on how it is handled. This is true of every aspect of the game. It is also not inherently a detractor.

(for example, all town revealed, mafia knows who to kill or mafia doesn't handle the situation well and get wiped off the game)


Of course we could do this, but it would suck the life out of this game. When you hear "it is day 2, too early for a role call", it is precisely for this reason. When you enter this game you agree to certain unwritten roles. Everyone just flat out revealing would take the mystery and deception away from the game and fill it with very little fun indeed. For town it is of course the ultimate strategy as they would win probably 99% of the time. As it stands Town has an abnormally high W.R. already so they don't need this extra advantage.


Which is why you barely see VFR outside of high ELO; the majority of people there derive more enjoyment from winning than playing. In normal games, the normal players participating play in order to play a game (Also the majority of them don’t understand VFR anyway but that’s another topic).
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby BasicFourLife » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:04 am

Tharok wrote:
Helicooler wrote:It can be unbalanced each way, depending on how it is handled. This is true of every aspect of the game. It is also not inherently a detractor.

(for example, all town revealed, mafia knows who to kill or mafia doesn't handle the situation well and get wiped off the game)


Of course we could do this, but it would suck the life out of this game. When you hear "it is day 2, too early for a role call", it is precisely for this reason. When you enter this game you agree to certain unwritten roles. Everyone just flat out revealing would take the mystery and deception away from the game and fill it with very little fun indeed. For town it is of course the ultimate strategy as they would win probably 99% of the time. As it stands Town has an abnormally high W.R. already so they don't need this extra advantage.

Ranked is competitive and about winning.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:41 am

Tharok wrote:
Helicooler wrote:It can be unbalanced each way, depending on how it is handled. This is true of every aspect of the game. It is also not inherently a detractor.

(for example, all town revealed, mafia knows who to kill or mafia doesn't handle the situation well and get wiped off the game)


Of course we could do this, but it would suck the life out of this game. When you hear "it is day 2, too early for a role call", it is precisely for this reason. When you enter this game you agree to certain unwritten roles. Everyone just flat out revealing would take the mystery and deception away from the game and fill it with very little fun indeed. For town it is of course the ultimate strategy as they would win probably 99% of the time. As it stands Town has an abnormally high W.R. already so they don't need this extra advantage.


What I was saying is it is unfair, but it can be both ways. I do not support VFR as I am an all-any player, but in modes like ranked you are going for #1, so I agree with Four Life on this one.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:55 pm

Yeah, well that is why ranked is it's own separate discussion and I do not really discuss matters involving Ranked because I think that is a rather insignificant section of the community, at least respectively speaking.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:59 pm

I'm going to take this another way. If you were to fix VFR, how would you do it? How do you remove a strategy based on the thing that allows the game to function- talking.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:42 pm

Helicooler wrote:I'm going to take this another way. If you were to fix VFR, how would you do it? How do you remove a strategy based on the thing that allows the game to function- talking.

Limit trials to 1
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:19 am

Good point, but people could just, force claims mid discussion? Then if town doesnt claim people will blame it on them when they get put on stand and they will be seen as a bad player.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby lemonader666 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:41 am

Helicooler wrote:Good point, but people could just, force claims mid discussion? Then if town doesnt claim people will blame it on them when they get put on stand and they will be seen as a bad player.

That's fucking dumb
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby dyaomaster » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:19 am

Helicooler wrote:Good point, but people could just, force claims mid discussion? Then if town doesnt claim people will blame it on them when they get put on stand and they will be seen as a bad player.

Yes they could, which is why limiting trials won’t work.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby AmNotMaf » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:28 pm

Chancell0r wrote:A common misconception is that VFR only helps Town. This is not true.

VFR can easily help evils. Ironically, low elo/new players won't like VFR "because it reveals important roles" (see the OP of this post).

VFR can be effective for town by reducing claim space for evils, forcing evils to claim early (which is always bad for evils) and getting information on voting patterns of specific players.

VFR can be effective for mafia by making townies look suspicious. If a confident mafia claims Investigator day 2, and then during VFR 3 townies slowly claim some TI, they will look more suspicious than the original mafia member who claimed investigator. If one of the suspicious TI claims are hanged (and are town), the focus doesn't switch immediately to the mafia who claimed TI, but to the other real TI townies because they claimed more slowly.

So who does VFR really benefit?

It's quite simple really, it benefits the better players. If you're town and a good scumreader, you should be able to read voting patterns and claims/how long it took someone to claim to figure out if someone is evil. A lot of time in ranked (esp high elo) there can be 3+ accusations day 2. People accusing each other left and right. Your job as a townie is to hang the person who will give the most information. For example, if 2 people are accusing 1 person, if you hang that 1 person and they are town, you expose 2 evils. From the votes you should be able to get another 1 or 2 evils.

If the evil plays well, they will make themselves look town, mislynch townie (not in a 1 for 1), conflict with fellow evils if necessary, get the right kills etc.

The onus is always on the evils to make the most out of VFR. If neither town or evils are really trying during VFR, normally town will win. This isn't saying it benefits Town mostly, it just means if no-one is playing well as evil, you can expect town to win (this should be the case for all Mafia type games IMO, the onus is always on the evil to deceive rather than the good guys to spot liars).

A strategy that benefits town more than VFR is the Day 1 Jailor claim meta. This is really difficult for evils because it limits the claimspace of a lot of roles unless they pull off some fancy RM visiting jailor trick. Plus the Jailor is p much literally unkillable N1. A lot of the very best players in the game have realised this and therefore don't participate in the meta (if you always play optimal as town, i.e. taking part of the d1 meta, your town winrate will be ~75%, but your evil winrate will be very bad because you are expected to play optimally as town. However, if you don't play optimally as town (i.e. visit someone else than jailor n1 lookout), you give yourself the possibility of doing this when you are evil, therefore increasing evil winrate. Town winrate is more important than evil winrate because you get Town more than evil and tbh there's not a massive difference in elo from winning as town/evil. So you'd have to make sure your drop in town winrate is less than half of the increase in your evil winrate.


But why would town do it literally every game if it helps evils? :/
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:53 pm

AmNotMaf wrote:
Chancell0r wrote:A common misconception is that VFR only helps Town. This is not true.

VFR can easily help evils. Ironically, low elo/new players won't like VFR "because it reveals important roles" (see the OP of this post).

VFR can be effective for town by reducing claim space for evils, forcing evils to claim early (which is always bad for evils) and getting information on voting patterns of specific players.

VFR can be effective for mafia by making townies look suspicious. If a confident mafia claims Investigator day 2, and then during VFR 3 townies slowly claim some TI, they will look more suspicious than the original mafia member who claimed investigator. If one of the suspicious TI claims are hanged (and are town), the focus doesn't switch immediately to the mafia who claimed TI, but to the other real TI townies because they claimed more slowly.

So who does VFR really benefit?

It's quite simple really, it benefits the better players. If you're town and a good scumreader, you should be able to read voting patterns and claims/how long it took someone to claim to figure out if someone is evil. A lot of time in ranked (esp high elo) there can be 3+ accusations day 2. People accusing each other left and right. Your job as a townie is to hang the person who will give the most information. For example, if 2 people are accusing 1 person, if you hang that 1 person and they are town, you expose 2 evils. From the votes you should be able to get another 1 or 2 evils.

If the evil plays well, they will make themselves look town, mislynch townie (not in a 1 for 1), conflict with fellow evils if necessary, get the right kills etc.

The onus is always on the evils to make the most out of VFR. If neither town or evils are really trying during VFR, normally town will win. This isn't saying it benefits Town mostly, it just means if no-one is playing well as evil, you can expect town to win (this should be the case for all Mafia type games IMO, the onus is always on the evil to deceive rather than the good guys to spot liars).

A strategy that benefits town more than VFR is the Day 1 Jailor claim meta. This is really difficult for evils because it limits the claimspace of a lot of roles unless they pull off some fancy RM visiting jailor trick. Plus the Jailor is p much literally unkillable N1. A lot of the very best players in the game have realised this and therefore don't participate in the meta (if you always play optimal as town, i.e. taking part of the d1 meta, your town winrate will be ~75%, but your evil winrate will be very bad because you are expected to play optimally as town. However, if you don't play optimally as town (i.e. visit someone else than jailor n1 lookout), you give yourself the possibility of doing this when you are evil, therefore increasing evil winrate. Town winrate is more important than evil winrate because you get Town more than evil and tbh there's not a massive difference in elo from winning as town/evil. So you'd have to make sure your drop in town winrate is less than half of the increase in your evil winrate.


But why would town do it literally every game if it helps evils? :/


Most VFR users don't realise this.

lemonader666 wrote:
Helicooler wrote:Good point, but people could just, force claims mid discussion? Then if town doesnt claim people will blame it on them when they get put on stand and they will be seen as a bad player.

That's fucking dumb


Yes it is.
And it happens.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby kosmo16 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:08 am

Gobln wrote:
0verki11 wrote:VFR is fair up until around 2400 elo then it becomes almost impossibile as leaders of vfr should be Jailor, Mayor, Trans, TK or revived targets.

???

Do you mean VFR is fair because, at lower elos, Godfathers and other evil roles are leading the VFR?

VFR isn't really about who is "leading" it. I'd say that's pretty much irrelevant.


Not really. You just haven't been in a game where voted up people are all Evils. Good leader is important.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:32 am

The worst thing that can happen is through sheer randomness they choose you, and although you give role and will they will screech 'that is my role' 'someone claimed that already' or just 'he is lying'. This is the main drive (other than severity against mafia) as one thing they never do, and I mean NEVER, is to think that the other one could be lying.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:13 pm

I think the worst thing that can happen is people trying to turn VFR into simple random lynching. The problem with this strategy is that you really need to read the town well before attempting it. If it is done right, town wins probably 99% of the time no questions asked. But, if you have a town that thinks putting someone on trial means they are guilty, I would be extremely cautious before trying to do this.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:52 pm

Yeah, YOU can be cautious, but as soon as ONE PERSON does whatever or you do it right but mafia is also very careful, it is so RNG based that it just makes the game have an obvious winner rather than chances of either.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:12 pm

Actually, I think it would be either RNG based or produce an obvious winner. I don't think it is possible to have both in this situation.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:50 pm

What I meant was, it is very rng based (as is the game), but as soon as you do VFR it causes there to be an obvious winner (as either mafia kills all the op roles, or mafia gets lynched, shot, jailed, and rbed.)
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:23 pm

Ah, I see. Then, in that case, you are absolutely right. VFR changes the game into something nobody signed up for.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Scientedfic » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:42 pm

Not really a big fan of VFR, simply because it's so luck-based. Personally, I'd discourage the usage of it, but since people seem to love using it, it's gonna stay.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby itslitatthenightsh0w » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:43 pm

Alright listen up noobs, I'm a top 5 salem player and VFR isn't even a good strategy. I always say my role day 1 then proceed to lead the VFR, by the time town knows what happened i was spy all along ecks dee. Mafia wins again, classic.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:15 am

I want to report nightsh0w for his misleading players in the strategic discussion community, but it's so damn funny.
Also obvious, but people don't get that somehow...
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Re: Is VFR ever good?

Postby TheWinner2015 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:48 pm

Shilster wrote:
DemonicKraken wrote:
Shilster wrote:Then suggest a change, like how Town should only have 2 trials a day, instead of just complaining.

See, thats the worst part. Theres no real, good solution. VFR is a pain and unfair, but there's no solution. This was mostly a vent thread.

A good strategy is not unfair.


Imagine a role for the town where it had a 1 use ability where the town would instantly win. It would be the best strategy to use this ability as soon as possible. Putting aside the fact that this role is horrifically unbalanced, it would be unfair to every other faction in the game, yet it's a good strategy to use this ability.

Good Strategies =/= Fair strategies.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby BasicFourLife » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:54 am

first there are plenty of solutions, your brain is just too small to handle them

secondly
TheWinner2015 wrote:
Shilster wrote:
DemonicKraken wrote:
Shilster wrote:Then suggest a change, like how Town should only have 2 trials a day, instead of just complaining.

See, thats the worst part. Theres no real, good solution. VFR is a pain and unfair, but there's no solution. This was mostly a vent thread.

A good strategy is not unfair.


Imagine a role for the town where it had a 1 use ability where the town would instantly win. It would be the best strategy to use this ability as soon as possible. Putting aside the fact that this role is horrifically unbalanced, it would be unfair to every other faction in the game, yet it's a good strategy to use this ability.

Good Strategies =/= Fair strategies.

die for bumping this
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Google » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:02 am

*loads shotgun*
WEVE HAD THIS DISCUSSION TOO MANY TIMES BEFORE, OLD MAN
VFR IS SHITE
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Yummysht » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:35 pm

I think vfr helps evil players in first days. It should be used after 3 days maybe.
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