Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

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Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

Postby regnumutaddonex » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:46 am

First of all: comment; discuss; but most importantly bump! :)
Some people think the GA is a little gimmicky and that it adds too little to gameplay value. But I think it could be altered to enhance player experience. The following are IMHO solid dynamics to enhance the GA place in the game world by giving it a defined purpose.

I first give a list of the changes, then I explain the boundaries of the role and it's place in the roster so that it can fulfill its niche in game-play value. And finally, I offer a rationale on why the changes should be made.

Here is a list of the changes purposed changes:
  1. If there is a GA is in the game (or maybe always) A blue font message displayed each night: "Guardian Angels can hear night prayers. Perhaps, there is a Guardian Angel out there watching over you. But probably not. "
  2. Every player can use the chat box to pray. For most players it still does nothing. But the GA will hear anything their client says at night. This implies that during the night anything their client says to another player would be heard by GA. (Like the Client's portion of mafia chat ect.)
  3. The Guardian Angel can no longer whisper.
  4. The GA is granted a basic defense (or perhaps powerful). If the GA is lynched, an additional protection day is given. (For a grand total of 3)
  5. The GA should be in the same category as the Jester and the Executioner not the survivor.
  6. If the client dies GA should become a Jester not a Survivor.
  7. Targets under protection should not be announced, nor should they be able to avoid being voted up. Rather, they should always be found INNO regardless of the true vote. (Maybe with an explanation why, or maybe by doctoring the voting record).

Part of what would make a fun gameplay is the relationship of the client to the GA. Right now the GA knows very little about the client and often cannot get a good grasp on when to protect him. By allowing player to "pray" at night, not only does it exploit the fear to create tension as the night closes to an end, it gives a mechanic for each player to, quite literally, pray, in hopes that *someone* is actually looking out for them. Roles like the bg, doctor, survivor, vet, and transport already allow a kind of defense mechanism to be selectively used when trouble could be nearby; this final effort is a slim hope afforded to all players -- a guardian. This tension becomes even more dire when death is afoot; like when a jailer could execute. "Please guardian angel please! Save me, AHHH!"

One of the dumbest and easiest ways to spot a GA is because a GA whispers to their clients D1. This offers almost no immersive benefit to anyone. Part of the fun of a GA is that no one knows who the GA is. Now in theory, as players become more familiar and create cunning strategies, they will start lying about being the GA. But lying or not, knowing who your GA is doesn't really add much gameplay value, even if it gives you a small advantage. But it can take away a good amount of the fun. Furthermore most other players don't have an incentive to kill the GA because his power remains alive or dead. The consequence is that a GA is often the first person to wispier to a player on D1 and doing so caries very little risk, but ruins the fun of the game.

Since the GA can now see night chat, the ability to whisper would need to be removed entirely. In addition it solves the problem of privately informing your client of your presences -- just like real guardian angels who don't go around letting us know if 1) they exist and 2) who they are. Additionally, by no longer announcing when a GA is providing protection the mystery and suspension is continued. This allows players to hope right until the very end when they are found "guilty or inno".

I see the GA as a sort of anti-executioner. While the execution tries to deceive others to have a target lynched, the guardian angel tries to lie to town/others to save their client. Both act on a disinformation campaign to achieve a very narrow goal, thus adding to the delicate role balances. Furthermore, I do not feel that survivor is the best role to default to when the GA loses it's client. Survivor must earn its win by either hiding or making peace with everyone. Rather Jester seems like a more appropriate option. If the target dies the GA has failed, drunk with depression, and wishes only to end it's miserable existence.

Finally the GA should have some sort of night protection just like the Executioner. It's goal is to engage in the day, and dying has very little real value. Additionally to make things interesting a GA should be able to trade his life for an extra day of protection. Not only does this provide more cover to the jester, it creates an interesting dynamic were the client can be protected in exchange for his silence (by being dead) and by going "all-in" (if his client dies it is impossible cannot win[without Resurrection]). He will no longer be able to directly influence town but will instead be afforded another opportunity to save his client from doom.
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Re: Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

Postby Portobello » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:55 am

I agree with 1, 2, 4 and 7 (half of it).

3. Hearing prayers is a cool concept but not allowing them to whisper is a very easy way of getting them lynched.
a) Not allowing any whispers like Mayor is an extremely easy way to tell if someone is a GA
b) If they can receive but cannot reply, they will definitely be lynched/executed if a TI is asking for role and they can also confirm your role if they want you to whisper them but you can't.

5. GA is an ANGEL after all and offers protective services (regardless of faction of the target) so should be considered NB. They can't kill or harm another player unlike Jesters, Vampires etc.

6. No, imo if the target dies GA should die the next day similar to when Vig kills an inno

7. I agree with the upvotable but always inno part but not so much the announce part. The target should stay hidden but an announcement such as: "A Guardian Angel has protected someone for a day." and yes, you will only find out who after voting, after attacking them or when they die.

A basic immunity would be great but can make town suspicious unless the inves result puts GA with surv. I like the lynching mechanic as in the GA could offer themselves as tribute or mislead town into lynching them instead of their target.
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Re: Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

Postby regnumutaddonex » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:40 am

I agree with 1, 2, 4 and 7 (half of it).
Thanks for your detailed reply.
3. Hearing prayers is a cool concept but not allowing them to whisper is a very easy way of getting them lynched.
a) Not allowing any whispers like Mayor is an extremely easy way to tell if someone is a GA
b) If they can receive but cannot reply, they will definitely be lynched/executed if a TI is asking for role and they can also confirm your role if they want you to whisper them but you can't.
As a GA getting lynched isn't all that bad. I have rewritten my suggestion because it is misleading, the GA can receive whispers he just cant send them. Yes it is possible that a TI would whisper someone and ask for they're role, but this doesn't happen all that often (except very late game) and the GA might actually want to get lynched. Allow the GA to whisper effectively brakes the GA because he can confirm himself to his client early and quickly especially if he hears their prayers. That leaves no claimspace for faux GAs and also breaks the "I hope the GA is protecting me" dynamic that makes the role fun to have.

5. GA is an ANGEL after all and offers protective services (regardless of faction of the target) so should be considered NB. They can't kill or harm another player unlike Jesters, Vampires etc.
I agree from a naming perspective. But from a gameplay perspective, he belongs with the Exe and jester. The synergy of each role is they engage in a disinformation campaign to engage in a very narrowly focused goal (get lynched, get someone else lynched, prevent someone from getting lynched). The witch is a little bit of a stretch as her goal is a defacto loss by town, I kinda view her more in the new NC role. but anyway, they each add asymmetry to the otherwise fairly black and white information warefare. Honestly the jester isn't really "netural evil" either. Perhaphs the catagory would be better named "Netural bewitched" or "Netural possessed". Actually, I kinda like "Netural possessed".

6. No, imo if the target dies GA should die the next day similar to when Vig kills an inno
I agree jester is problematic. But it's better than survivor, who earns there win.

I heard someone mention the idea of a fallen angel before. Maybe they become a "fallen angel" instead. My interpretation is as follows: The fallen angel has one enemy faction, a powerful attack, and no defense. Each night the angel indirectly visits a target. If the target is of the enemy faction a powerful attack is performed, if not, nothing happens. If the faction does not win, then the fallen angel wins. If the faction wins the fallen angel loses. The GA would become a fallen angel with the enemy faction being one of the factions that killed his client (at night). The GA loses outright if his target is lynched during the day (similar to vig)

7. I agree with the upvotable but always inno part but not so much the announce part. The target should stay hidden but an announcement such as: "A Guardian Angel has protected someone for a day." and yes, you will only find out who after voting, after attacking them or when they die.

I don't have a problem with an announcement, It creates a different mechanic by confirming the presence of the GA and that he used one of his finite protection abilities. It creates a different flavor. But I think the absence of it is a good solution too, because people can't protection count.
A basic immunity would be great but can make town suspicious unless the inves result puts GA with surv. I like the lynching mechanic as in the GA could offer themselves as tribute or mislead town into lynching them instead of their target.
Agreed but dying isnt really grob for the GA.
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Re: Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:44 pm

Exe and Jester are Neutral Evil with Witch. Though right now I think they should be changed a little since they're not "evil" enough, GA is far from those two. Exe and Jester harm the Town(though not enough, which is what I think should be changed) whereas GA has a statistically higher chance of protecting Town, which imo is the exact opposite of what NE stands for.
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Re: Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

Postby joefischerxxx » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:39 am

regnumutaddonex wrote:First of all: comment; discuss; but most importantly bump! :)
Some people think the GA is a little gimmicky and that it adds too little to gameplay value. But I think it could be altered to enhance player experience. The following are IMHO solid dynamics to enhance the GA place in the game world by giving it a defined purpose.

I first give a list of the changes, then I explain the boundaries of the role and it's place in the roster so that it can fulfill its niche in game-play value. And finally, I offer a rationale on why the changes should be made.

Here is a list of the changes purposed changes:
  1. If there is a GA is in the game (or maybe always) A blue font message displayed each night: "Guardian Angels can hear night prayers. Perhaps, there is a Guardian Angel out there watching over you. But probably not. "
  2. Every player can use the chat box to pray. For most players it still does nothing. But the GA will hear anything their client says at night. This implies that during the night anything their client says to another player would be heard by GA. (Like the Client's portion of mafia chat ect.)
  3. The Guardian Angel can no longer whisper.
  4. The GA is granted a basic defense (or perhaps powerful). If the GA is lynched, an additional protection day is given. (For a grand total of 3)
  5. The GA should be in the same category as the Jester and the Executioner not the survivor.
  6. If the client dies GA should become a Jester not a Survivor.
  7. Targets under protection should not be announced, nor should they be able to avoid being voted up. Rather, they should always be found INNO regardless of the true vote. (Maybe with an explanation why, or maybe by doctoring the voting record).

Part of what would make a fun gameplay is the relationship of the client to the GA. Right now the GA knows very little about the client and often cannot get a good grasp on when to protect him. By allowing player to "pray" at night, not only does it exploit the fear to create tension as the night closes to an end, it gives a mechanic for each player to, quite literally, pray, in hopes that *someone* is actually looking out for them. Roles like the bg, doctor, survivor, vet, and transport already allow a kind of defense mechanism to be selectively used when trouble could be nearby; this final effort is a slim hope afforded to all players -- a guardian. This tension becomes even more dire when death is afoot; like when a jailer could execute. "Please guardian angel please! Save me, AHHH!"

One of the dumbest and easiest ways to spot a GA is because a GA whispers to their clients D1. This offers almost no immersive benefit to anyone. Part of the fun of a GA is that no one knows who the GA is. Now in theory, as players become more familiar and create cunning strategies, they will start lying about being the GA. But lying or not, knowing who your GA is doesn't really add much gameplay value, even if it gives you a small advantage. But it can take away a good amount of the fun. Furthermore most other players don't have an incentive to kill the GA because his power remains alive or dead. The consequence is that a GA is often the first person to wispier to a player on D1 and doing so caries very little risk, but ruins the fun of the game.

Since the GA can now see night chat, the ability to whisper would need to be removed entirely. In addition it solves the problem of privately informing your client of your presences -- just like real guardian angels who don't go around letting us know if 1) they exist and 2) who they are. Additionally, by no longer announcing when a GA is providing protection the mystery and suspension is continued. This allows players to hope right until the very end when they are found "guilty or inno".

I see the GA as a sort of anti-executioner. While the execution tries to deceive others to have a target lynched, the guardian angel tries to lie to town/others to save their client. Both act on a disinformation campaign to achieve a very narrow goal, thus adding to the delicate role balances. Furthermore, I do not feel that survivor is the best role to default to when the GA loses it's client. Survivor must earn its win by either hiding or making peace with everyone. Rather Jester seems like a more appropriate option. If the target dies the GA has failed, drunk with depression, and wishes only to end it's miserable existence.

Finally the GA should have some sort of night protection just like the Executioner. It's goal is to engage in the day, and dying has very little real value. Additionally to make things interesting a GA should be able to trade his life for an extra day of protection. Not only does this provide more cover to the jester, it creates an interesting dynamic were the client can be protected in exchange for his silence (by being dead) and by going "all-in" (if his client dies it is impossible cannot win[without Resurrection]). He will no longer be able to directly influence town but will instead be afforded another opportunity to save his client from doom.

Like the prayer idea.
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Re: Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:25 am

Guardian Angel
-limited doctor
-useless vote count at day
-Hasnot got any idea whats happening in town
-is an non-target for killing roles
-Failed Survivor to winner side


i dont know why this role exists
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Re: Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

Postby Andrija04 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:02 am

I don't see the problem with it being Neutral Benign and becoming Survivor when the target dies and I would hate to see it become a Jester and I don't see a need for these changes so
/nosupport
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Re: Let the Guardian Angel hear prayers (and other changes)

Postby SpellChecker » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:05 am

Andrija04 wrote:I don't see the problem with it being Neutral Benign and becoming Survivor when the target dies and I would hate to see it become a Jester and I don't see a need for these changes so
/nosupport


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