The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Which of these roles do you actually like?

Tracker
59
17%
Ambusher
36
10%
Crusader
25
7%
Trapper
34
10%
Mystery Role
28
8%
Hypnotist
29
8%
Pirate
41
12%
Psychic
27
8%
Guardian Angel
36
10%
Plaguebearer
40
11%
 
Total votes : 355

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:42 pm

@Kikigiri
Yes, but in this scenario, it can't win with Mafia as a GA. I feel like it's unfair for a role to be able to cheat its own goals so easily. Once you are GA turned Survivor, winning is actually pretty easy if you publicly claim that you've become a Survivor.

This is why I have a GA fix, which I posted on a separate thread but will now post in here. This fix fixes the 'Benign' problem and makes it easier to keep the target alive. Anyway, here it is:

* The GA does not start a with a target.
* At day, the GA can choose a target via the Sun icon, and on the following night, this person will become the GA's target. The GA can do this even if it has died.
* The GA will be able to Heal and Purge its target like normal.
* If the target dies, the GA dies and loses.
* At least four nights must pass after the GA chose its target for the GA to be able to win. This means that if the GA chooses their target on D3, if the game ends after N7, the GA will win, but if the game ends before N7, the GA will lose.
* If the GA chooses their target on the first day, they are exempt from the rule above.

Thoughts? If this fix isn't satisfactory, then there's always a second fix: scrapping the role altogether.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:06 pm

And then you pick your target N2 and lose because the game ends too soon, it's not your fault for waiting a day.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:50 pm

Yeah, I guess my Guardian angel fix is flawed. But the GA needs either a fix, a complete rework, or it needs to be scrapped.

It honestly pisses me off that BMG is presenting the Coven update as a finished product, when in reality, it isn't anywhere near finished. I feel like BMG is just straight up lying to us; they promised that our testing in the PTR would influence their decisions, but they haven't changed anything!

* Hypnotist, Crusader, Psychic, and Pirate all use RNG, and they will all appear in Coven-ranked.
* BMG hasn't admitted that they basically stole the Hypnotist off of the Drug Dealer.
* GA is hard to win with; the only real way to win is to become a Survivor, which is unfair.
* Most of us haven't had a chance to test the Juggernaut, so we don't even know if it's good or not.
* The Plaguebearer is still a really under-powered role if Town does VFR, which is the current meta.
* They haven't reverted the Arsonist changes. I'm okay with keeping silent douses, but douse-framing ruins multi-Arso games in All Any and Custom.
* Vampire, Vampire Hunter, and Spy are still in the game.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:01 pm

They nerfed Psychic, buffed Hex Master, changed Necromancer, fixed bugs, their priority is on the things they can do to smooth out the Coven as soon as possible. Other changes will come, but those might require more time. Better many smaller changes than a few big ones, because the smaller ones add up.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:37 pm

@HereThereEverywhere

What they should've done is: they should've waited longer before implementing the update; I don't see the point in publishing an unfinished update. All of the roles I mentioned still suck, badly!

I don't care what you say about the Pirate; me and pretty much every actually good Ranked player agrees that it's a horrible role concept, and yet BMG hasn't said or done anything about it. In fact, they actually (sort of) buffed the Pirate when they clarified that the RBing was intentional.

Look at this game right here, which was one of the first games I ever had as the Pirate, and tell me if it was a fair game:

N1- I, the Pirate, kill the 1st Coven, and the 2nd Coven is killed by a Crusader.
N2- I kill the 3rd Coven.
D3- I publicly side with Town and lynch the 4th Coven. Town + Pirate Victory.

If the RNG hadn't decided to allow me to kill these Covens, the game would've gone very differently. The Covens would've been at a disadvantage, but they at least would've had a chance. But because of the darn Pirate, in this one particular game, they didn't even have a chance at winning. And now BMG plans on adding this role so that it can appear on the Coven-RANKED? Are you kidding me?!

It seems that every update nowadays is a compromise; you get both good and bad. Some of the new roles are cool and all, but because the update was so rushed, in order to enjoy these cool roles, we have to put up with the bad ones, too.
Last edited by Tigerleap on Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:57 am

So every player that disagrees with you is a bad one? Well with thinking like that why am I even here.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:21 pm

@HereThereEverywhere

I didn't say that the players were bad; I said that the roles were bad. Please, please, please, please, don't quote me on things I never said. I do not think that every player that disagrees with me is a bad one; here in the ToS community, we're all in the same boat. Every update affects us differently, but if the boat sinks, it takes all of us down with it, and we can't let that happen.

I think I've made it pretty clear that even the Chaos players can agree that at least one of the new roles is bad; every update we get divides our community further and further:
* I personally think that the Spy nerf was needed, but many people voted against it. I feel like the Spy should just be removed, but BMG has no plans for doing so.
* I liked the Arso's silent douses, but not the douse-framing, which was the most popular buff in the poll.
* I like three of the roles from the Coven update, and there are a few roles that could be fixed with changes, but there are some roles that are going to absolutely hammer down Ranked.
* The Paywall will literally split the community in two...

See what I mean? BMG is making updates that only please a small portion of their audience while the other players get screwed over, and they're ignoring problems that have been around for ages. Town has had the highest win-rate in the game since forever, and yet BMG is now adding a few powerful roles to Town's ranks, while the Mafia has to settle with the crappy Hypnotist, which even most Chaos players agree is a horrible role concept, just because BMG was too lazy to make an interface, and yet they made one for the Pirate. Oh, and speaking of the Pirate, don't even get me started on it.

At this point, BMG is ruining both Chaos and Ranked. They are desperately adding new content to keep the game relevant, but it's just making the game worse, which is the reason that so many older players are quitting.

Pirate Solutions

Anyway, speaking of the Pirate, here are all of the possible solutions, in order from most favorable (in my opinion) to least favorable, though all of them are better than keeping the Pirate as is:

1: Remove the Pirate completely.
2: Completely rework the Pirate so that its kill mechanic isn't luck-based.
3: Restrict the Pirate to AA and Custom only.
4: Make the Pirate lose its killing ability once it plunders two people.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:52 pm

Tigerleap wrote:I don't care what you say about the Pirate; me and pretty much every actually good player agrees that it's a horrible role concept

Implying that anyone who likes it is wrong and probably a bad player.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:15 pm

It looks like I made the same mistake again. I've corrected the statement to be specific to Ranked.

Anyway, tell me what you think about the other post I made, please, and tell me if you disagree that BMG is dividing the To$ community. The fact that I disagree with you on the Coven update pretty much proves my point: all of the new updates are splitting our community apart.

No, I am not saying that one opinion is right while another is wrong. What I'm saying is that BMG should be adding features that benefit the entire community instead of adding updates that benefit only a small portion of the community while the rest is left out.

I do have a question for you, however: do you like all of the new roles? I'd like to know your view on all of the new non-Coven roles.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:39 pm

Tigerleap wrote:Anyway, speaking of the Pirate, here are all of the possible solutions, in order from most favorable (in my opinion) to least favorable, though all of them are better than keeping the Pirate as is:

1: Remove the Pirate completely.
2: Completely rework the Pirate so that its kill mechanic isn't luck-based.
3: Restrict the Pirate to AA and Custom only.
4: Make the Pirate lose its killing ability once it plunders two people.


1. We've already talked about this and we know it won't happen.
2. I could support this. I'm not against a role that isn't luck based, but for my personal game-play it doesn't affect me much.
3. /Support, though unlikely to see it in Ranked because it's NC, it could be hazardous, understandably. Perhaps NC should just not be a possibility in Ranked entirely, seeing that Vampire should also be removed but, nobody wants to listen to that.... :roll: (I'm pointing fingers at you, Devs... who even likes the Vampire anymore?)
4. /Support!!!!

I wouldn't split 3/4 though. I would do both. Even in AA, I personally find problems with the Pirate remaining afterwards. Given his night immunity, he's got no reason to keep his ability because he is that much harder to kill unless called out as immune.
I also think he should only be able to roleblock the Veteran, and no other roles.

As for spy, I think an entirely easy and logical fix is just to remove mafia's ability to see "there is a spy", and take away spy's night chat ability. This gives mafia the ability to always talk as they should, and spy can still do spy things. Mafia doesn't have a confirmed town role and the price they pay is the ability to talk at night, and not only when spy isn't in the game.
Hollr wrote:Also I lost -12 elo as surv so may I suggest you collectivly engage in intercourse with yourselves.


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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:04 pm

@Belshy

Neutral Chaos

I think that Neutral Chaos roles as a whole--not just Pirate--are a huge disaster when they're the Any. There's a reason that BMG made the Chaos game-modes: to make pro-Chaos players happy without adding any crazy roles into Ranked. BMG has made it very clear that they want to keep Ranked as stable and balanced as possible, but ironically, they allow Chaos roles to appear in the games. It's no secret that the Vampire wreaks havoc in Ranked, and we know that BMG is aware of this since the role's alignment is literally called Neutral Chaos.

Ever since the Vampire was added, BMG has pretended that the Vampire works just fine in Ranked, but in reality, it sticks out like a sore thumb, even in Chaos game-modes. If you are fortunate enough to be the host of a Custom lobby, if you add Vamps, then either people will leave the lobby or you will get repicked. Although there's bound to be people who like the Vamps, the To$ community as a whole does not.

In a game I had earlier today, I actually managed to win in Ranked as a Vampire, and I must say that it was a very unfair game. The Vamps stayed under the radar for most of the game until one of us died, but by then, Town had already lost too many votes. What I hate so much about Vampires is that they're unpredictable, and by the time you figure out that the Any was a Vampire, it's probably too late to stop them.

So here is my solution to the Pirate and Chaos roles:

* Chaos roles cannot appear as the 'Any' in Ranked or Ranked Practice.
* Once the Pirate achieves its goal, it will no longer be able to plunder any more players.

I also have a few changes that I think should be made to the Pirate, and I'd like to hear thoughts on these. Not all of them have to be implemented. Anyway, here they are:

* The Pirate's attack will be reduced from Powerful to Basic (he could theoretically kill NK N1).
* The Pirate will be able to anonymously speak with their target at night. This is so that the Pirate can play the mind game by saying something like "I'm going to use the Rapier" so that they can try to predict what their opponent will pick, which makes the role not be luck-based.

If all of the changes above were made, I don't think that I would hate the Pirate role, though I wouldn't be a fan of it, either.

Spy Changes

I feel like it's unfair for the Spy to be able to read the Mafia chat; Mafia deserves to be able to speak freely whenever they want. However, I'm not sure if we should keep the Spy, even with the changes you suggested, and for four reasons:

1: Like the Psychic, the Spy is a no-skill role; it just sits there while the game spoon-feeds it valuable information.
2: This is just an opinion, but I feel like whispers should be private. Having a Spy in the game pretty much ruins the whole point of whispers. Removing the Spy would allow for better communication between the evils, though whispering would still create suspicion.
3: The Spy is basically self-confirmable. Yes, there's the possibility that a "confirmed" Spy claim could be a BMer, but this isn't a problem if there's a Sheriff in the game.
4: This is probably the #1 reason that I think the Spy should be removed: having a role be able to see Mafia visits makes Mafia Support roles semi-useless. For instance, if there's a Spy in the game, a Consort can't claim Escort, and a Consigliere can't claim Invest, because if they do, the Spy will know that they're Mafia.

Overall, I feel like the Spy should just be removed from the game. Removing the Spy would give the Mafia a well-deserved buff.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:07 pm

I really don't think the Pirate being able to talk to their target would help in all honesty. It's still luck, do they fall for your bluff? Do they say screw it and pick something at random anyway? It all depends on the person, you're probably better off just choosing one attack and sticking with it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:02 am

Yeah other than the Pirate talking thing we're on the same page lol
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:32 pm

@Orangeandblack5

I guess the Pirate "talking thing" would be weird and overly complex; maybe restricting the role to Chaos modes only along with the other two nerfs would be good enough alone.

However, I feel like we need to be harsh on all the new roles, or else BMG won't listen. It honestly pisses me off that BMG isn't listening to us, and it'd be interesting to know what a more experienced player thinks about the issue.

BMG thinks that the Coven update is unpolished, meaning that it only needs a few finishing touches, but in reality, they released an unfinished update, which still needs tons of changes to actually work. BMG promised that our feedback from the PTR would influence their choices, but now we know that this was a huge lie. Despite so many complaints about roles like the Pirate and the Hypnotist, BMG only changed three roles--the Hex Master, the Plaguebearer, and the Psychic--but those three roles still suck, as do most of the roles that they didn't change.

I recently updated my main post by adding a section titled "The Fate of the Roles," where I explain what I think BMG should do about every new role. Thoughts?

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


Image

FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Kikigiri » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:28 am

Anyway, now that it's out, my biggest complaint about the Coven update is that they inexplicably removed the Witch from it, apparently solely for lore reasons. This really, really sucks - it was my favorite role, and it's only slowly sinking in that (since I'm likely to only play Coven going forwards) it has been effectively taken out of the game entirely for such a terrible reason.
Please put the Witch in Coven mode. I miss it. :-(
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:42 am

Tigerleap wrote: Spoiler:
@Orangeandblack5

I guess the Pirate "talking thing" would be weird and overly complex; maybe restricting the role to Chaos modes only along with the other two nerfs would be good enough alone.

However, I feel like we need to be harsh on all the new roles, or else BMG won't listen. It honestly pisses me off that BMG isn't listening to us, and it'd be interesting to know what a more experienced player thinks about the issue.

BMG thinks that the Coven update is unpolished, meaning that it only needs a few finishing touches, but in reality, they released an unfinished update, which still needs tons of changes to actually work. BMG promised that our feedback from the PTR would influence their choices, but now we know that this was a huge lie. Despite so many complaints about roles like the Pirate and the Hypnotist, BMG only changed three roles--the Hex Master, the Plaguebearer, and the Psychic--but those three roles still suck, as do most of the roles that they didn't change.

I recently updated my main post by adding a section titled "The Fate of the Roles," where I explain what I think BMG should do about every new role. Thoughts?

I plan to do a similar summary/suggestion megathread thingy this upcoming weekend. I'd do it sooner, but I'm busy at the moment (what with exams and all).
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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