Cult (Informed Minority)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

What do you think?

To the Testing Grounds
61
53%
Needs just a bit of work
19
17%
Unbalanced (Comment)
2
2%
Idea will never work (Comment)
8
7%
To The Testing Grounds
25
22%
 
Total votes : 115

Re: Cult (Faction)

Postby BS4125 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:08 am

Please do not tangentially post on a thread, keep posts relevant to the concept at hand.


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Cult (Faction)

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:02 pm

It’s very hard to kill all TKs when you have 0.5 kpn, let alone survive to the late game. It’s the town’s fault for not catching you at that point. I feel it is self explanatory that the average day length would be longer with the cult


only guaranteed tk who can kill you is jailor vet can be tk and then cant kill you.
there can end up being no vig so jailor will be your only counter late game it will be very likely jailor is dead Well the town doesn't have any way to find who the Jailor is, there is no consigliere.

and keep in mind if you know who jailor the last killer alive is you can just vote them to stand night after you reveal and hang your last counter this role is still OP Scumreading is all you get

False. Domming somebody isn’t killing them. You need to get them lynched or hope that the nk of tk catche them


so what about the cutthroat doesnt he kill every night cant he just kill doomed targets for you? Again, cutthroat is not rollable, it is not in any of my rolelist and the cult (head) would be the only killing role (outside the "Double Header" rolelist which has 2 cult (head) roles

if he cant then two doomed every night on average you get this done by n4 or n5 then it might be balanced accept remove powerful attacks Exactly, that's more accurate

Ritualist only works for lynching


your role says

- Chooses 2 players per night, preparing his target's body to be switched upon the death of a certain cult member


you have this worded absolutely horribly then this heavily implies they can die in anyway it doesn't say upon hanging "Preparing" as in not that night, i told you it was poorly worded when I was going over it xD But just lynching

I mean the guy that attacked the trickster, so jailor and vig counter, but I forgot to put (Basic attack) so not nk counter


this role is interesting then i would rather it have 3 charges and only last a night but not die if it runs out charges I actually took that off yesterday, it was a terrible idea

Exactly, remember the whole 0.5 kpn means that the roles are naturally more powerful to account for it


ok you're implying that cutthroat isn't a role in the faction but its listed as role im so confused, WHY DO YOU HAVE CUTTHROAT AS A ROLE IF IT ISN'T IN THE FACTION It is solely for promoting when there is no killing role left(If we don't use tactical cult), think as if mafioso wasn't in ranked, but mafioso would still show up in ranked when godfather died. Either that or if somebody made a custom rolelist where the cult needed a higher kpn

this completely changes how rate the faction if it only has .5 kills you need make it clear that this faction only has .5 kills a night and that cutthroat doesn't appear as a role in the faction This faction onlyhas .5 kills a night and cutthroat doesn't appear as a role in the faction unless promoted in. Clear?

i might go through again grade each role based on this new info but not right now
You do know that spiritualisr can only do things when killed right? That’s a big negative


you're missing my point they are both roles where a thing only happens if someone dies from hanging The Spiritualist has to die to do anything, but the Trickster does it for when other people die

all it takes is just having only one town vote to kill you and this role is trash my point was you should merge two roles somehow or just remove cause this is to weak I thought about it and I agree, what if we added the change that nobody could abstain? I agree with that change in general and I could add it to part of the faction

------------------------------------------------

keep in mind i thought this faction had 1.5 kills a night the whole letting this faction kill NK more of a worse idea Yes, that's why when you said "overpowered", I heard "somewhere between a little powerful and balanced"

then the nk has too much control over killing since the game is moving slower and less efficiently for the town, meaning that before the cult would be able to stop the nk he could easily clean them out



keep in mind i thought this faction had 1.5 kills a night the whole time i previously reviewed this

letting this faction kill NK more of a worse idea now that i know it only has .5 kills

kill NK when you only have .5 kills is A HORRIBLE idea you need them alive till there very end

games will easily last to night 9 or 10 if nk dies early you will lose by then

if you can accidently kill NK early on guarantee your faction looses becuase town will die to slowly and be able to gather enough info to hang you

infact if try tries to hang or kill NK early you should do everything in your power to keep nk alive that how important is it to your faction winning since it only has .5 kill a night This is why I meant to say that nk doesn't die first time, because then the cult can decide to keep the nk alive until later.

not only is it fair a team of 4 people can kill a player who is solo vrs the rest the game its also basically a guaranteed loss for you faction if you Kill NK early on Still you get a chance to let nk live

how would you like it you were nk and just got kill accidently N2 no strategy no chance can win nothing you could've done you had no chance to counter this and have no allies in your win condition so you just straight up loose Again takes 2 visits

why do you think that's fair tell 2 visits

evil actions are meant to use voting to kill NK they should never be able to directly kill NK during the night I disagree, I feel like wasting 2 nights to clean off the nk instead of keeping balance with a diminishing town would potentially spell doom for the cult as they wont be keeping the town under raps, thus although you have the ability to kill the nk, you are mentally bound to keep nk alive

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now that this cut throat not being in the faction even though its a role in your list thing is cleared Not in my rolelist, but it is still a potential role in the game. I don't understand what you aren't getting about it

i think this faction is a lot fairer now expect you basically shitting on NK this faction has has huge potential Alright xD
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Re: Cult (Faction)

Postby Mystoc » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:51 pm

hollow does not need to scum read late game almost all roles are known

jailor is almost always confirmed lated game (and vig is not guaranteed in a role list) this role can reveal and instantly hang jailor and be unkillable

this role has no counter late game like n6 this role will have 4 votes when it reveals, that almost defiantly be enough votes to hang whoever it wants

this role is busted and is holding back the faction a lot, it is uncounterable in its current state

---------------------------------------------------------------------


your takes two attacks to kill logic is so bad and doesn't make sense at all it isn't a powerful attack if it doesnt kill a role with a basic defense so saying its a powerful attack is wrong

if i attack NK the first time has cult head time and the person doesn't say hey thanks tp for saving me guess who i know NK is now

guess who i can now kill at my whim any time i feel like it late game once NK has killed enough for me to no longer useful

it's unfair NK should never be able to be killed by an direct attack (unless by other NK which cant happen in ranked)
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Re: Cult (Faction)

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:11 pm

hollow does not need to scum read late game almost all roles are known You do have a point there, but I still think that not being able to do anything to help defend yourself for say 4 or 5 days makes it very hard to get through the game, and I think that justifies the powerful endgame. It's simply risk reward.

jailor is almost always confirmed lated game (and vig is not guaranteed in a role list) this role can reveal and instantly hang jailor and be unkillable I have considerede adding Vigilante as a confirmed role next to Jailor, how do you feel about that?

this role has no counter late game like n6 this role will have 4 votes when it reveals, that almost defiantly be enough votes to hang whoever it wants 4 votes? n1 gives 2 votes total, n3 gives 3 votes total, n5 is 4 votes. Jailor will have this out before you get 4 votes on day 6

this role is busted and is holding back the faction a lot, it is uncounterable in its current state Holding it back or pushing it forward? Holding it back to me means underpowered and I think you mean overpowered. But I gave my opinions above

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your takes two attacks to kill logic is so bad and doesn't make sense at all it isn't a powerful attack if it doesn't kill a role with a basic defense so saying its a powerful attack is wrong It's a powerful attack where neutral killings get an out, I don't see what's wrong with that

if i attack NK the first time has cult head time and the person doesn't say hey thanks tp for saving me guess who i know NK is now Well you could always claim self healed but I do see your point

guess who i can now kill at my whim any time i feel like it late game once NK has killed enough for me to no longer useful That's true, but the nk would be aware fof this as well, and by the time the cult would be ready for this the nk would be able to kill them off, likely 2 nights until they can kill the nk and that means the nk gets 2 kills on the cult,
needs an almost perfect game to be able to kill the nk.


it's unfair NK should never be able to be killed by an direct attack (unless by other NK which cant happen in ranked) Why? I mean I get the fact that he loses just like that but taking away 2 attacks is 3 nights for the cult head here that is just giving the town time to find everything that is going on, it is a mental
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Re: Cult (Faction)

Postby Schultz128 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:54 pm

tldr Cult doesn't work well in a game with a mafia faction
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Re: Cult (Faction)

Postby Gooose26 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:27 am

Schultz128 wrote:tldr Cult doesn't work well in a game with a mafia faction

I agree, but outside of the Cult Ranked mode all of those gamemodes are for solely for the fun of the game and keeping the game unique, not to achieve perfect balance. What I mean is that there all have obvious balance/mechanical errors. And since the Cult will never be in the actual Town of Salem, those are more just flavor rather than references to balance.
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby ManateeDude » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:26 pm

oh shit, theres such thing as a balanced faction on these forums. Below is a list of questions and comments:

Oracle - Slow killer but has a cool ability. Lots of strategies available.

Silencer - hmm a little interesting not totally sure completely how this works

Hollow - ooh an endgame scum mayor, very interesting

Beckoner - very interesting, its good for one of these roles to have a higher KPN

Possessor - idk honestly, not making sense to me

Spiritualist - question... can this role talk with fellow cult after dead? other wise really interesting

Preacher - won't NK just visit and kill him? no other complaints

Arbiter - not sure how this role helps its faction.

Ritualist - this could completely screw TP's and TI's seems a little OP but its not my faction

Oracle - very interesting, lots of strategy could be used, very interesting Tactical role.

Trickster - I have always loved the idea of making other roles have jester like thingys, I would suggest changing the name to Taboo Caster because it sounds more Culty

Shapeshifter - Like a janitor, but much more strategy involved.


All in all this is a great faction and it gains more power endgame without having necronmicon-like buffs.

100% support from me
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Catodaklu » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:00 am

Spirit taker:buffed janitor
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:46 pm

ManateeDude wrote:oh shit, theres such thing as a balanced faction on these forums. Below is a list of questions and comments:

Oracle - Slow killer but has a cool ability. Lots of strategies available.

Silencer - hmm a little interesting not totally sure completely how this works

Hollow - ooh an endgame scum mayor, very interesting

Beckoner - very interesting, its good for one of these roles to have a higher KPN
Q
Possessor - idk honestly, not making sense to me

Spiritualist - question... can this role talk with fellow cult after dead? other wise really interesting

Preacher - won't NK just visit and kill him? no other complaints

Arbiter - not sure how this role helps its faction.

Ritualist - this could completely screw TP's and TI's seems a little OP but its not my faction

Oracle - very interesting, lots of strategy could be used, very interesting Tactical role.

Trickster - I have always loved the idea of making other roles have jester like thingys, I would suggest changing the name to Taboo Caster because it sounds more Culty

Shapeshifter - Like a janitor, but much more strategy involved.


All in all this is a great faction and it gains more power endgame without having necronmicon-like buffs.

100% support from me

Yes, spiritualist can speak with dead players at night.

As long as there is a Town Protective, then there is no problem with Preacher getting the NK.

Arbiter can get scum killed, especially via vote for roles, and can also save teammates in the endgame.

I wanted all of the Cult roles to be one word names, I bet there is a better word than Trickster but Taboo Caster, while it sounds pretty wicked, is a bit big for me.

Catodaklu wrote:Spirit taker:buffed janitor

Spirit Taker was one of my first 3 roles when this faction was really bad, and then I renamed it to the Shapeshifter and reworked it, then reworked it, then reworked it to it’s current state.

It is a buffed Janitor at this point, but the difference is that this faction has 0.5 kpn when mafia has 1 kpn, so the roles naturally have more effect to account for the difference.
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Mystoc » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:28 pm

Goose their no such thing as a powerful attack that doesn't kill neutral killing, neutral killing has basic defense powerful attack kills basic defense

you would need to add a new tag to the tag like

Attack - Slow Powerful.

hardened killers can dodge slow attacks because the they are so adept at killing that they can see the signs of being followed and know the attack is coming and are ready to dodge the attack and defend themselves
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby ManateeDude » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:31 am

Mystoc wrote:Goose their no such thing as a powerful attack that doesn't kill neutral killing, neutral killing has basic defense powerful attack kills basic defense

you would need to add a new tag to the tag like

Attack - Slow Powerful.

hardened killers can dodge slow attacks because the they are so adept at killing that they can see the signs of being followed and know the attack is coming and are ready to dodge the attack and defend themselves


Whats the point of having powerful attacks that don't kill NK? Powerful attacks can't bypass TP so idk what's the point.
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Mystoc » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:47 am

being able to solo kill NK is OP goose wanted it be powerful and not Kill NK, but like you said their really isn't a use for it now im just pointing it cant be powerful and not kill NK
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby ManateeDude » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:53 am

Maybe it could be like slaughterer that kills with an unstoppable, but resents from killing those with basic defense
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:45 pm

The whole point of the powerful attack is that it can kill NK, what is the problem with that? I believe that NKs that kill slowly should be given a powerful defense to stop this and NKs that kill quickly should be able to kill Cult (Head), despite what the defense says, a bypass to the system.
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:13 pm

Gooose26 wrote:The whole point of the powerful attack is that it can kill NK, what is the problem with that? I believe that NKs that kill slowly should be given a powerful defense to stop this and NKs that kill quickly should be able to kill Cult (Head), despite what the defense says, a bypass to the system.


NK is alone vrs 4 people the cult who have night chat

why should an informed group of 4 who know who each other have the power to directly to kill a solo player with no allies or night chat how is that fiar goose?

explain
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Schultz128 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:48 pm

tldr game doesn't need more factions
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Mystoc » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:30 pm

Schultz128 wrote:tldr game doesn't need more factions


yea that's not feedback at all, you made a post saying you didn't read his faction.... you really think that's helpful?
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Flake » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:19 pm

Mystoc wrote:yea that's not feedback at all, you made a post saying you didn't read his faction.... you really think that's helpful?

It is valid feedback, since a valid reason is stated for the lack of support (the belief that more factions aren't needed). Existential validity is an important aspect of any idea.

Back on topic, please.
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:47 pm

Mystoc wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:The whole point of the powerful attack is that it can kill NK, what is the problem with that? I believe that NKs that kill slowly should be given a powerful defense to stop this and NKs that kill quickly should be able to kill Cult (Head), despite what the defense says, a bypass to the system.


NK is alone vrs 4 people the cult who have night chat

why should an informed group of 4 who know who each other have the power to directly to kill a solo player with no allies or night chat how is that fiar goose?

explain

Cult has to kill town, they also have to kill NK. The same way that NK has to kill town, and also kill Cult. It is difficult for a Cult to kill the NK even with the ability to attack them because the Cult has just 0.5 KPN, but it isn’t very difficult for the NK to kill the Cult members because it has more killing. I do believe that the Werewolf and Arsonist need some sort of buff, but roles like Serial Killer and Butcher are what I’m focusing on. I believe that equal footing is given when we make this a 3-way battle rather than Cult vs Town with NK on the side.
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby coolegcole » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:38 pm

Oracle can be OP. For example - he is a town investigative role and gets cursed! Even if he does lose his curse, that would still be really annoying to be useless for 3 nights!
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:04 am

Why was this bumped?
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:05 am

coolegcole wrote:Oracle can be OP. For example - he is a town investigative role and gets cursed! Even if he does lose his curse, that would still be really annoying to be useless for 3 nights!

Hey man, thanks for the comment! It really makes me happy to see people reading through my faction and giving their best to suggest improvements to it!

I've taken a huge look at Oracle over the course of its conception, and I've seen this complaint about it a lot. Many people just like you have been concerned that it would make the game boring for anybody who gets cursed by the Oracle. I'm curious as to what you would suggest as far as making improvements to this aspect of the role, as I simply do not know what would work best for it.

I also believe, given that the target is not informed of the curse, the anticipation of night results would be enough to keep somebody on the edge of their seat as the end of the night draws near.

I understand that the role seems very powerful, and it definitely is, but it's important to keep in mind that the faction can only kill every other night, unlike the mafia. This means that they kill at half of the rate that the mafia can. To counter this drawback, I've tried my hardest to make the roles stronger than your typically Mafia (Support and Mafia (Deception) roles.

JacksonVirgo wrote:Why was this bumped?

That's a great question that I believe draws to the very nature of what it means to be an avid forum goer and a lover of all types of mafia games. I'm not exactly sure if we could summarize the answer objectively without forgetting an important aspect of human nature, so we may never know an objective truth relating to this question as a whole.
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Re: Cult (Informed Minority)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:14 am

Gooose26 wrote:...
JacksonVirgo wrote:Why was this bumped?

That's a great question that I believe draws to the very nature of what it means to be an avid forum goer and a lover of all types of mafia games. I'm not exactly sure if we could summarize the answer objectively without forgetting an important aspect of human nature, so we may never know an objective truth relating to this question as a whole.


Lmao, sure. Give me a small bit to read through the post (since I haven't for a while) then I will tell ya what I think.
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