Magnasword2 wrote:See the problem I have with this is on an understanding basis. In real life I wouldn't look at a werewolf (Introverted, Isolated and private) and say OH THATS OBVIOUSLY A BODYGUARD.
I also find very little way for you to mistake a Werewolf for a blackmailer.
I also find it very strange a sheriff can smell of gas unless he's been at the beans again XD
The Jailor, Mayor spy thing okay yes i can agree with that it's good it means everything easily confirmed can be easily confirmed.
I think you're being very hard on the amnesiac here also. Getting a confirmed amnesiac means you can bully the amnesiac into choosing a town role very easily and that sucks if the amne wishes to join the mafia and such.
My problem really is that newer players are going to get confused as there's nothing linking the investigations at that point and it makes it difficult to find a way to remember them all thus driving away players who quite frankly already believe the game to be quite complicated.
Gobln wrote:Balance > Lore for new players.
Should be obvious.
Mroz4k wrote:Gobln wrote:Balance > Lore for new players.
Should be obvious.
Not neccesarily. The game looses authenticity if you remove the lore. Balance and roles are both important.
waffleme3 wrote:what you said up there about medium not being important, medium can be a gaint disadvantage for mafia late game since they can say all the imformation from the dead
Bloodringe wrote:waffleme3 wrote:what you said up there about medium not being important, medium can be a gaint disadvantage for mafia late game since they can say all the imformation from the dead
Come on, medium is no more powerful then everyone keeping a good will. Since all last wills can be viewed at any time.
Well, thats not exactly true medium is a vote.
I said medium is the weakest town, not unimportant. Just least important scaling wise.
To101m wrote:/SUPPORT
Holy cow, this needs implementation ASAP
I don't care for 'the lore', this is something that needs to be changed right away!
As GobIn says
Balance > Lore
ShadeSeraph wrote:"The Sheriff is a master of his trade, determining if a person is behaving suspiciously with only a single glance."
(Unless they're a Godfather, Arsonist, Jester, Executioner, Witch, or Werewolf.)
Bloodringe wrote:Godfather or Mayor
Absolutely broken. Not only does it instantly lynch the godfather, which draws away from the skill of the game, but it also forces Mayors to reveal. Which is an issue for mayors attempting to lay low. 2/10
Abinmorth wrote:Bloodringe wrote:Godfather or Mayor
Absolutely broken. Not only does it instantly lynch the godfather, which draws away from the skill of the game, but it also forces Mayors to reveal. Which is an issue for mayors attempting to lay low. 2/10
i disagree here.
Godfather has some advantages over other mafia:
he is night immune and looking not suspicious to the Sheriff, so I think it is good if at least the Invest can figure him out very easily.
Mayor is a very strong town role, especially if they survive till late game (votes have more power, its easier to keep track of roles with lesser people),
so its a good thing that he can be forced to reveal by invests or consigs.
but i do agree that most of the other pairings you listed are badly balanced.
also it is even worse in the current ranked role list:
- there can only be one Random Mafia (unless Any)
- Often town knows the role of random mafia, once the random mafia uses their ability. e.g Janitor or Blackmailer.
- lets say the invest finds an Invest/Consig after Janitor cleaned somebody.
- while the chance that the Any role is a mafia is 8/30 = 26% - the chance that the Any is a Consigliere is 1/30 = 3%
- this means 97% chance that the Invest/Consig check is another Investigator. Time to compare results.
Mroz4k wrote:Jailor, Mayor, Spy - terrible. Why? Because you get a confirmed, extremely powerful Town. Why would you even have confirmed Town member through Investigation this way? Why? When Jailor and Spy can both be used in an investigation tag with something evil, and this gives the evil role advantage because Investigator would be unwilling to share that information, out of a fear of revealing a potential Jailor?
Mayor + Spy is a bit better, but still it is a bit bad. What I would do is separate those two and slaped each one of those roles to a different tag, so yea, sure, they can confirm themselves easily... but just adding them to tag that is unconfirmable is good enough solution.
Because regardless of their tag, they can reveal themselves.
On top of that, this would tell Investigator who the Jailor is for 100% - if Mayor already revealed, and Spy got spy-checked, then it only can be the Jailor (or second Spy, but in 90% it would be Jailor because Investigator and Spy were two Town investigative).
If I should rate it, I´d give it 2/10 = very broken.
Mroz4k wrote:Medium, Godfather, Survivor - First of all, your two sentences in there contradict each other. "This will ease off pressure from Godfather and Survivor" and "Medium is going to get lynched anywhere you put it"
No, it will not ease off pressure from GF or Survivor, it will only add pressure on Medium. In fact, so much I would probably lie about my Role to a confirmed Town member as a Medium just so I dont get lynched. You said it yourself - Medium can be easily faked by anyone who is watching the game. So, as a proof, it sucks equally bad as Mayor or Godfather. Actually, its even worse because you need to lie about your own role to your own teammates if you want to survive.
7/10? You are kidding... 3/10 at most.
Regardless what you add to Godfather, unless its a Jailor and Bodyguard, GF will always be hung. And anything you put together with it.
Besides, Godfather is supposed to be alergic to Investigator. Investigator is the counter role to GF, when Sheriff and other investigatives are kind of lost there (Spy can be partially usefull against GF).
Mroz4k wrote:Retributionist, Disguiser and Jester - thats a bit weak claim. It helps only a bit by adding a Town Unique role that will most likely be just asked to ressurect someone for proof, or if they already die, and there cant be another one, it will immidiatedly work the same way.
If Vanilla version for Disguiser was 5/10, this would be 6/10 at most.
Mroz4k wrote:Sheriff, Transporter, Arsonist is alright.
Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch - its meh, but its better then the current Witch one.
Lookout, Janitor, Executioner is alright.
Mroz4k wrote:Overall, I believe that your colab with Elastoid was better then this (but still lacked a lot of balance).
Investigator is pretty strong Investigative role. If it is supposed to be a bit weaker, then ideally, all the evil and all the good roles should be mixed together, so you have one good role, one bad role, and one neutral or good Unique role.
What I would see as good balance:
Survivor gets a pretty hard-to-defend claim (such as Mayor or GF). This means there is no more revealing I´m Survivor of the start, hoping to not be lynched by the Town... - because there is literally no way to confirm if its Survivor, or Godfather.
All Neutral Killing roles (especially Arsonist and Werewolf) should get a good Town role to claim + weak Town role or easily confirmable, or even Unique Town role.
All Mafia roles (except for Framer or Forger, as those have a chance of being a good roles that were framed) should have an equally strong Town counterrole to claim.
Transporter should stay on his own, as that role itself is a big investigation influence.
Mroz4k wrote:Jailor, Mayor, Spy - terrible. Why? Because you get a confirmed, extremely powerful Town. Why would you even have confirmed Town member through Investigation this way? Why? When Jailor and Spy can both be used in an investigation tag with something evil, and this gives the evil role advantage because Investigator would be unwilling to share that information, out of a fear of revealing a potential Jailor?
Mayor + Spy is a bit better, but still it is a bit bad. What I would do is separate those two and slaped each one of those roles to a different tag, so yea, sure, they can confirm themselves easily... but just adding them to tag that is unconfirmable is good enough solution.
Because regardless of their tag, they can reveal themselves.
On top of that, this would tell Investigator who the Jailor is for 100% - if Mayor already revealed, and Spy got spy-checked, then it only can be the Jailor (or second Spy, but in 90% it would be Jailor because Investigator and Spy were two Town investigative).
If I should rate it, I´d give it 2/10 = very broken.
Medium, Godfather, Survivor - First of all, your two sentences in there contradict each other. "This will ease off pressure from Godfather and Survivor" and "Medium is going to get lynched anywhere you put it"
No, it will not ease off pressure from GF or Survivor, it will only add pressure on Medium. In fact, so much I would probably lie about my Role to a confirmed Town member as a Medium just so I dont get lynched. You said it yourself - Medium can be easily faked by anyone who is watching the game. So, as a proof, it sucks equally bad as Mayor or Godfather. Actually, its even worse because you need to lie about your own role to your own teammates if you want to survive.
7/10? You are kidding... 3/10 at most.
Regardless what you add to Godfather, unless its a Jailor and Bodyguard, GF will always be hung. And anything you put together with it.
Besides, Godfather is supposed to be alergic to Investigator. Investigator is the counter role to GF, when Sheriff and other investigatives are kind of lost there (Spy can be partially usefull against GF).
Retributionist, Disguiser and Jester - thats a bit weak claim. It helps only a bit by adding a Town Unique role that will most likely be just asked to ressurect someone for proof, or if they already die, and there cant be another one, it will immidiatedly work the same way.
If Vanilla version for Disguiser was 5/10, this would be 6/10 at most.
Sheriff, Transporter, Arsonist is alright.
Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch - its meh, but its better then the current Witch one.
Lookout, Janitor, Executioner is alright.
Overall, I believe that your colab with Elastoid was better then this (but still lacked a lot of balance).
Investigator is pretty strong Investigative role. If it is supposed to be a bit weaker, then ideally, all the evil and all the good roles should be mixed together, so you have one good role, one bad role, and one neutral or good Unique role.
What I would see as good balance:
Survivor gets a pretty hard-to-defend claim (such as Mayor or GF). This means there is no more revealing I´m Survivor of the start, hoping to not be lynched by the Town... - because there is literally no way to confirm if its Survivor, or Godfather.
All Neutral Killing roles (especially Arsonist and Werewolf) should get a good Town role to claim + weak Town role or easily confirmable, or even Unique Town role.
All Mafia roles (except for Framer or Forger, as those have a chance of being a good roles that were framed) should have an equally strong Town counterrole to claim.
Transporter should stay on his own, as that role itself is a big investigation influence.
Your target works in the shadows."
Bodyguard, imagine the secret service. Blackmailer I always think of in a dimly lit room with their files. Werewolf, only uses moon light.
"Your target's works invades others personal lives."
Lookout, peeping tom. Easily sees everything that occurs late night at their target's house. Janitor removes all evidence of their targets personal lives(role). And destroys their last will and testament. Executioner does everything they can to ruin their targets personal life. Also their life in general.
Sheriff sees lawbreakers as lawbreakers, no exceptions. Transporter doesn't slow down no matter who is in their cab. Arsonist has a broken psyche and just burns things. No hard feelings.
Bloodringe wrote:Jailor, Mayor, Spy
Your target has stayed hidden for the good of the town.
Jailor is anonymous, you dont know who the mayor is and also spy eavesdrops even before anyone knows.
OR
Your target has the most power.
Jailor has the fifth freedom given by the mayor, mayor is the leader and.... spy may be out of this list.
Medium, Godfather, Survivor
Your target has a long history of death.
Medium speaks with the dead people, GodFather is the head of the mafia, which kills people, and survivor comes from a war accoring to his lore.
Lookout, Janitor, Executioner
Your target makes sure to leave no clues behind.
Lookout watches his target without anyone noticing, janitor cleans the crime scene and executioner visits their target everyday, even without him and himself knowing.
Retributionist,Disguiser, Jester
Your target is most affiliated with dead bodies.
Retributionist revives people, disguiser steals dead peoples identities and jester wins by dying, AND he takes someone with him.
Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch
Your target is all by himself.
Doctor has knives stabbed in his walls, practicing medicine everyday, serial killer is a lonely killer, and witch is just a basic loner.
Sheriff, Transport, Arsonist
*Couldnt Find*
Bodyguard, Blackmailer, Werewolf
Your targets presence scares others.
Bodyguard will kill people on sight, blackmailers presence scares because people cant be able to talk after they are introduced to him, and werewolf is just a huge beast itself.
Abinmorth wrote:Bloodringe wrote:Godfather or Mayor
Absolutely broken. Not only does it instantly lynch the godfather, which draws away from the skill of the game, but it also forces Mayors to reveal. Which is an issue for mayors attempting to lay low. 2/10
i disagree here.
Godfather has some advantages over other mafia:
he is night immune and looking not suspicious to the Sheriff, so I think it is good if at least the Invest can figure him out very easily.
Mayor is a very strong town role, especially if they survive till late game (votes have more power, its easier to keep track of roles with lesser people),
so its a good thing that he can be forced to reveal by invests or consigs.
but i do agree that most of the other pairings you listed are badly balanced.
also it is even worse in the current ranked role list:
- there can only be one Random Mafia (unless Any)
- Often town knows the role of random mafia, once the random mafia uses their ability. e.g Janitor or Blackmailer.
- lets say the invest finds an Invest/Consig after Janitor cleaned somebody.
- while the chance that the Any role is a mafia is 8/30 = 26% - the chance that the Any is a Consigliere is 1/30 = 3%
- this means 97% chance that the Invest/Consig check is another Investigator. Time to compare results.
ShadeSeraph wrote:'The Sheriff is a master of his trade, determining if a person is behaving suspiciously with only a single glance.'
(Unless they're a Godfather, Arsonist, Jester, Executioner, Witch, or Werewolf.)
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