Mroz4k wrote:I agree with you that there is a need for Investigation tags overhaul.
Not this one, though. I mean, you have some pretty interesting suggestions, but just about half of these would have serious balancement results to certain roles.
For example, these ones:
Medium, Witch or Werewolf - awful. Everyone who would ever come up with this and there was a Werewolf in-game would be instantly lynched. Medium is not worth protecting over a possible Werewolf.
Mroz4k wrote:Not saying that the current WW tag is much better - in fact, its pretty much the same.
Mroz4k wrote:Lookout, Blackmailer, or Disguiser - again, 33% Town role, 66% Mafia role. Instantly lynched, no other questions asked.
Mroz4k wrote:Jailor, Spy, or the Mayor - your own argument was that Protector is awful, because its easily confirmed Town role, and a good one. Yet now you did the very same thing right here.
Mroz4k wrote:On top of that, many of the ´´lore´´ explanations dont make any sense - Mayor uses secret information? Amnesiac spends all the time on the graveyard?(I know the wiki says this as a lore but that was all made up by fans)
Framer accuses the Mafia? How does that even make sense in a sentence? Same with Executioner - since Executioner´s target is always Town.
Mroz4k wrote:Vet and Trans can backfire on the town? Thats not even legitimate ´´lead´´, thats just statement. Not to mention it would (again) be a confirmed Town role, not a good idea to have.
Mroz4k wrote:/Support for new investigation results.
No support for this particular ones.
On the contrary, props for the being bulletproof investigation tag, that one was very clever.
Or Arsonist making housecalls.
The "Either a Framer, or framed" readout isn't effective, even in a vacuum. If the result occurs when there are 11 players, then there's only about a 10% chance that the result is wrong.
KittenLicks wrote:Elastoid, I don't understand your Math behind the Framer thing at all.The "Either a Framer, or framed" readout isn't effective, even in a vacuum. If the result occurs when there are 11 players, then there's only about a 10% chance that the result is wrong.
Imagine a role list of 9 vanilla townies, 1 Investigator and 1 Framer.
If you investigate someone at random and the Framer frames someone at random:
If the Framer frames the Investigator: (1/10)
1/10 chance the invest investigates the Framer.
0/10 chance the invest investigates the framed (they can't check themselves)
If the Framer frames anyone else (9/10)
1/10 chance the investigator investigates the Framer
1/10 chance the investigator investigates the framed.
Chance the invest chose the Framer = 1/10 + (1/10 * 1/10) = 11%
Chance the invest chose the framed person = 1/10 = 10%
Unless my math is wildly off, the odds are almost the same? There is an extra 1% chance that the person is likely the real framer, simply because there is a 10% chance you were the one framed and therefore your result is automatically accurate. So it's about 50/50 if you get the result that someone is a framer.
If you investigate someone a second time after finding they are a framer initially, the chance of the framer choosing them at random is then around 10%.
no I have nothing to say about the suggestions I just felt like doing math
Kiyosen wrote:Won't the "Jester/SK" result lead to the same thing as the "Jester/Disguiser" result except more incentive to execute Jesters?
SarahSaurus wrote:I think this was a really interesting idea to try and help balance, by changing the invest results instead of just changing the Role List. I think there are a lot of good ideas here, but some of them don't quite make sense or could probably be tweaked. And I'm not trying to criticize, because I know this took a lot of effort and I do think it's pretty good- but I wonder if we could make it better? Idk.
-One thing that bothered me was about the Framer. I was just thinking that with the current investigation it says "your target is a framer or is framed" or something like that. But with yours, it doesn't say that the person could be framed- and I think you still mean to have this result show up on a person who is being framed, right? I just think this might be kind of confusing, especially when it would be first be changed or to new players. I mean the framer doesn't specifically say it makes someone appear as a framer, just that it makes them appear as mafia. So I think not having that little "or is being framed" tidbit feels kind of weird to me. I mean you could make it to where the Framer's description specifically says that it makes someone else appear as FRAMER and not just mafia, or maybe rework the investigation result a little bit.
-And for the retri/janitor/amne one, can't amnesiacs actually remember from a cleaned person? Or is that a bug? This isn't a huge critique, but if that is an intentional game mechanic, then this result would still make amnesiac hard to claim. I don't really care either way, it was just something I noticed.
-I'm not sure how I feel about the lookout/blackmailer/disguiser one. I kind of feel like having two mafia roles in one invest result could be dangerous. Like, a lot of people might decide Lookout is an unreliable, useless role and just lynch these people because of the high chance that they could be mafia. Plus, since blackmailer is support, and disguiser is deception, you could actually have BOTH of those roles in the same game. I also think lookout can be proven/disproved more easily than you might think. All you need to do is ask for a will, and it's hard to fake a lookout will- because you don't know who is visiting who. If you write down that someone was not visited by anyone on N3, but say, a doctor protected them N3? They can call you out. And the further you are into the game, the more nights you have to fake in your will.
-And the descriptions of the arso/doc and veteran/trans results don't seem that great to me. I know it's really hard to group those roles together, but while I was reading this I found myself stopping at both those parts trying to see if I could think of a better way to describe them as a pair. This of course isn't a huge deal, but maybe if someone could find a better way to kind of tie each of those pairs together, it would be nice.
Overall, I think this is pretty cool. I mean I don't think anyone can fully expect what would happen if all the investigation results in the game were changed- but this has a lot of good reasoning behind it. I like the idea of lumping the town-confirmable roles together, pairing gf with bg and survivor, and the other ones do seem like they could have potential.
Juuhazan wrote:Uhh...I think I can try my (ineffectual) hand at these description things.
Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town.
Sheriff, Framer or Executioner - Your target utilizes incriminating info.
Lookout, Blackmailer or Disguiser - Your target's work relies on gathering personal info.
Medium, Witch or Werewolf - Your target works with magic.
Transporter or Veteran - Your target is unstable, but loyal to the town.
And that's all my nitpicking produced for this night. I only reworded them as to how I saw fit, so feel free to shoot this down to the ground. I'll try to think up other descriptions tomorrow. And it should go without saying that I like these role suggestions. They give more wiggle room to the other roles.
Elastoid wrote:Juuhazan wrote:Uhh...I think I can try my (ineffectual) hand at these description things.
Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town.
Sheriff, Framer or Executioner - Your target utilizes incriminating info.
Lookout, Blackmailer or Disguiser - Your target's work relies on gathering personal info.
Medium, Witch or Werewolf - Your target works with magic.
Transporter or Veteran - Your target is unstable, but loyal to the town.
And that's all my nitpicking produced for this night. I only reworded them as to how I saw fit, so feel free to shoot this down to the ground. I'll try to think up other descriptions tomorrow. And it should go without saying that I like these role suggestions. They give more wiggle room to the other roles.
I like it. Maybe, for the first one, "Your target is obviously loyal to town" or something.
Mroz4k wrote:As funny as it is, I already had my list put together before you two created yours. I didnt post it before you because I have around 8 different threads as work-in-progress and these were not on my priority list. However, my list had obvious mistakes, mainly one that bothered me lore-wise and balance-wise - Vampire Hunter+Survivor+Lookout combination. While at first it may not sound half bad, it would pretty much give Survivor a clear way to victory, if checked by Investigator, because he wouldnt be evil for sure.
While I did put my main idea list and its changed together in about 15 minutes, it took me another 2 hours to fit in lore on it, and finish in the description on why its a good / bad thing.
So I feel you, it is not an easy task as it may seems.
Already posted it under suggestions as Investigator results overhaul. Also gave you two credit because it would have taken me a lot longer to figure out those final adjustments had I not been inspired by your work.
Alzar wrote:"Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town."
You mean... just like the entire town? ?_?
That's not awfully informative, since all Town are Town.
Elastoid wrote:Sorry, your results aren't good in comparison.
..................................................................... Your List ............................... My/Bloodringe list
Godfather........................................... Still dies instantly ................................. Has Bodyguard claim
Mafioso............................................... Same....................................................Same
Consort, Consigliere ...................................... Same............................................. Same
Janitor ................................................. Got worse, dies instantly ................................ Got worse, has Ret and Amnesiac claim
Disguiser .................................................... Still dies instantly ................................ Has Lookout claim
Blackmailer........................................ Got better with Lookout claim................... Got better with Lookout claim
Serial Killer .............................................. Same ......................................... Changed with Jester claim, better sometimes/worse sometimes
Arsonist................................................... Same.......................................... Got better with non-falsifiable claim
Werewolf.............................................. Got better with Bodyguard claim.......... Got better with Medium claim
Mroz4k wrote:Elastoid wrote:Sorry, your results aren't good in comparison.
..................................................................... Your List ............................... My/Bloodringe list
Godfather........................................... Still dies instantly ................................. Has Bodyguard claim
Mafioso............................................... Same....................................................Same
Consort, Consigliere ...................................... Same............................................. Same
Janitor ................................................. Got worse, dies instantly ................................ Got worse, has Ret and Amnesiac claim
Disguiser .................................................... Still dies instantly ................................ Has Lookout claim
Blackmailer........................................ Got better with Lookout claim................... Got better with Lookout claim
Serial Killer .............................................. Same ......................................... Changed with Jester claim, better sometimes/worse sometimes
Arsonist................................................... Same.......................................... Got better with non-falsifiable claim
Werewolf.............................................. Got better with Bodyguard claim.......... Got better with Medium claim
I dissagree. You kind of missed the whole point. The point is not to make every role less suspicious. That would be imbalancing Investigator. No, some roles are supposed to go down with Investigator claim easily, some are not.
You claim balance but what you do is in fact going to imbalance it. Some roles need to be easily proven as evil.
Godfather - Immune to Sheriff, with Mafioso also immune to jailor locking up, roleblock or Lookout, is immune against attack, and decides who dies for Mafia - is technically the boss. Therefore, it makes absolute sense to make Investigation tag be his only real weakness. Which is where I agree with the Vanilla list, putting Mayor and Godfather on the same tag. Godfather is being played about staying low, making sure they dont investigate you. Putting Survivor on that spot makes Survivor harder to win but also gives Godfather some leverage to claim a role even in case of investigated. If he says Survivor, is jailed but has Mafioso who still does the killings, then he can pretty much get away with it.
You suggestion puts up Bodyguard as a viable claim by Godfather, that makes Bodyguard distrustful. And it gives Godfather pretty much total immunity to investigations. Like I said, if Mafioso - Jailor or Escort or Lookout will not prove him, and without Mafioso he still has immunity to Sheriff, and immunity to attack.
So, in this case, my suggestion makes more sense balance-wise, even though your makes Godfather easily defendable.
Investigator is supposed to be kryptonite to Godfather.
Janitor is something I am working on, but its not that bad. Your Janitor is screwed because his only choice of role claim would be Amnesiac (which gives him one more day tops to prove innocence), or Retributionist which is a Unique role and also incredibly easily confirmable, again buying Janitor one extra day tops.
Werewolf - When was the last time anyone who claimed Medium after being called out as suspicious didnt get hung? Thats a very weak claim and everyone can make up the proof - therefore it would be improvement to Survivor/Witch, but it would be a very slight improvement.
Serial Killer - there is not a moment when having SK/Jester would be a good thing for SK. He has no chance to claim reasonable role for investigation, just play Jester. Since everyone can play Jester, noone will always believe you to be Jester. Jailor can execute you. Vig can shoot you and reveal you as a SK. The moment Neutral Evil is confirmed as Witch or dies as Exec or Jester, you are completedly and utterly fucked. So its in no way better, it only gets worse.
On the contrary, such a claim would be blessing for Jester, and make it pretty easy. Many people would consider 50/50% chance on hanging Jester instead of a Serial Killer as a very good risk. On the contrary, noone wants to sacrifice a possible Doctor - Town Protective.
Disguiser with Jester claim can at least jump over to another body if he manages to stall, therefore dodging the bullet completely if Forger or Janitor, or at least take a risk and hope the last will will not sell him out.
Having Lookout claim would be an improvement, but also a nerf for Lookout - which is an investigative class that can only be proven if they manage to get lucky and see someone visit someone else.
Juuhazan wrote:Alzar wrote:"Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town."
You mean... just like the entire town? ?_?
That's not awfully informative, since all Town are Town.
I'd be willing to argue the specifics, but I agree that you're right. The caveats of thinking late at night -_-
Elastoid's already got it.
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