SilverCruz wrote:I'm not a fan of having a win condition that can silently negate the win condition of other roles. It's not really better than changing the win condition of other roles. Of course the only modification I can present to make that not happen is to make it so that if it gets voted up, all drained players are forced to vote Innocent. It's true this would sell it out, but I suppose ideally one would stay undercover to the point that the Innocent votes will prevent it from being lynched off, nevermind that Neutral Chaos shouldn't exist, it's just a pen for Vampires who are fundamentally broken, Pirate who's a lazy Neutral Killing, and Plaguebearer who's only there instead of Neutral Killing because God forbid a Ranked match have a role that can't be executed by the Almighty Wesley Jailor in the form of Pestilence.
Triple roleblock also sounds ridiculous, and this would basically require Vampire Hunter being thrown in the trash can, though whether or not that's a real downside is debatable.
MarsGodofWar wrote:Nah having 1 conversion role in a game like this is fine. Having to wait a night between conversions is fine as well. You spend your whole game as a town and then get converted? So what? Suck it up, part of the game.
alex1234321 wrote:MarsGodofWar wrote:Nah having 1 conversion role in a game like this is fine. Having to wait a night between conversions is fine as well. You spend your whole game as a town and then get converted? So what? Suck it up, part of the game.
Townies in Vamp games are always going to be tempted to play passively in case they become a Vampire. Vampires encourage players to play badly or even gamethrow because they punish players who try to help their faction before being converted.
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
superdog551 wrote:So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack
alex1234321 wrote:superdog551 wrote:So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack
It's treated like a basic attack. So a Doctor prevents the Vampire form biting its target and a Bodyguard and Vampire kill each other.
I agree that it's OP right now. What do you think about only letting it bite 3 people in total? That would still give it a ceiling of 1.5 KPN but as soon as one of the drained players dies the KPN goes down to 1.
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
superdog551 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:superdog551 wrote:So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack
It's treated like a basic attack. So a Doctor prevents the Vampire form biting its target and a Bodyguard and Vampire kill each other.
I agree that it's OP right now. What do you think about only letting it bite 3 people in total? That would still give it a ceiling of 1.5 KPN but as soon as one of the drained players dies the KPN goes down to 1.
That might cripple it because if all of the vampires bites end up dying then can it only win if it is the last person alive? Probably an impossible task since it cant kill without living drained
alex1234321 wrote:superdog551 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:superdog551 wrote:So the best strategy for this vampire needs to have 3 people bitten, get to top 7, and then kill the other 3 players right? That doesn't seem too hard at all in theory. Does TP kill the vampire? If not it would be easy to go for the jailor and other confirmed townies since you could reliably keep them alive before dealing your attack
It's treated like a basic attack. So a Doctor prevents the Vampire form biting its target and a Bodyguard and Vampire kill each other.
I agree that it's OP right now. What do you think about only letting it bite 3 people in total? That would still give it a ceiling of 1.5 KPN but as soon as one of the drained players dies the KPN goes down to 1.
That might cripple it because if all of the vampires bites end up dying then can it only win if it is the last person alive? Probably an impossible task since it cant kill without living drained
How common would it be for this to happen? Of course there are sometimes Arsonists who have everyone they douse die, but usually at lease one player lives. Keeping all three alive would not be super common so the player should be rewarded accordingly, and keeping two alive seems sort of average and would give 1 KPN as a result. The only issue is that the Mafia might go out of their way to kill drained players if they get a special notification and TP wouldn't save them.
I like the idea of having a drain notification since it would cause the Vampire to be more relevant early on than a typical NC. Do you think the drain notification would reduce the average KPN close to or even below 1 with unlimited uses?
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
superdog551 wrote:Can you explain what you mean with the last part about unlimited uses?
alex1234321 wrote:superdog551 wrote:Can you explain what you mean with the last part about unlimited uses?
I meant the current version of the Vampire, where it can keep draining people but can't have more than 3 drained at once. With Mafia killing drained people and possibly Town lynching them, do you think the average KPN would fall below 1? For that to happen at least 2 drained players would have to die before the Vampire kills them.
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
superdog551 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:superdog551 wrote:Can you explain what you mean with the last part about unlimited uses?
I meant the current version of the Vampire, where it can keep draining people but can't have more than 3 drained at once. With Mafia killing drained people and possibly Town lynching them, do you think the average KPN would fall below 1? For that to happen at least 2 drained players would have to die before the Vampire kills them.
Ah I see now, I think it's possible but unlikely. If the vampire has 2 people drained and either bites someone protected, gets roleblocked, jailed, etc. and the two end up dying (either by being killed at night or lynched the next day) it could lose it's KPN. It is, of course, possible but I doubt it would be a common thing. With unlimited bites the vampire will pretty much always be able to maintain 2 or 3 drained people, because I really doubt all 3 could die in the same night outside of super situational circumstances.
Maybe something that could work is giving the vampire 4 bites total while still keeping the max of 3 drained at one time. That way if the vampire loses a drained they have one back up that they can use ,and also if it does end up being a 1v1 they can use their last bite to win. I think that would be noticeably more powerful than a maximum of 3 bites while also not being as theoretically OP as the current unlimited bite option.
alex1234321 wrote:I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
superdog551 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.
It's not an arbitrary number. The vampire has no room for error or accidents with 3 bites maximum. It NEEDS to have people bitten otherwise it's near impossible to win. How would a vampire win a 1v1 with a non-killing town when it is out of bites? It can't, the game would draw or just automatically become a town win. The reverse is that with infinite bites it becomes very powerful because any of its bites can die without much real issue.
And just to be clear I'm not saying let them have 4 drained people at a time, that would be insane because they could then win a game with 10 living players. There would still be a maximum of three living drained people but the vampire would get one extra bite to replace one that has died or to potentially win a 1v1 scenario.
alex1234321 wrote:superdog551 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.
It's not an arbitrary number. The vampire has no room for error or accidents with 3 bites maximum. It NEEDS to have people bitten otherwise it's near impossible to win. How would a vampire win a 1v1 with a non-killing town when it is out of bites? It can't, the game would draw or just automatically become a town win. The reverse is that with infinite bites it becomes very powerful because any of its bites can die without much real issue.
And just to be clear I'm not saying let them have 4 drained people at a time, that would be insane because they could then win a game with 10 living players. There would still be a maximum of three living drained people but the vampire would get one extra bite to replace one that has died or to potentially win a 1v1 scenario.
It could still have the problem of not being able to do anything if it wastes the last drain. It would be much less common but would still occur occasionally.
Coincidentally, if you do the math for the expected number of dead drained players assuming 2 kills per day/night cycle, it ends up being about 0.89, which isn't too far from 1. Even in Ranked there's going to be more kills than that factoring in Jailor executes and other things. So 4 drains does seem fair. But at this point I'm using logic to support a conclusion rather than doing it the other way around.
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
superdog551 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:superdog551 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I thought about that, but at that point you're picking arbitrary numbers that "seem" fair. I think the limit of 3 drained people is fair because both the Mafia and Vampire caps have been set at 4 based on years of testing and there's no clear reason why this pseudo-faction would need to be different. My original idea of limiting it to 3 bites makes sense since it's a natural progression form 3 simultaneous drains, so idk how to justify limiting it to 4 bites. But it could work.
It's not an arbitrary number. The vampire has no room for error or accidents with 3 bites maximum. It NEEDS to have people bitten otherwise it's near impossible to win. How would a vampire win a 1v1 with a non-killing town when it is out of bites? It can't, the game would draw or just automatically become a town win. The reverse is that with infinite bites it becomes very powerful because any of its bites can die without much real issue.
And just to be clear I'm not saying let them have 4 drained people at a time, that would be insane because they could then win a game with 10 living players. There would still be a maximum of three living drained people but the vampire would get one extra bite to replace one that has died or to potentially win a 1v1 scenario.
It could still have the problem of not being able to do anything if it wastes the last drain. It would be much less common but would still occur occasionally.
Coincidentally, if you do the math for the expected number of dead drained players assuming 2 kills per day/night cycle, it ends up being about 0.89, which isn't too far from 1. Even in Ranked there's going to be more kills than that factoring in Jailor executes and other things. So 4 drains does seem fair. But at this point I'm using logic to support a conclusion rather than doing it the other way around.
I see your point, 4 still isn't enough to prevent a loss where other killing neutrals and the original vampire would likely win. However, I still feel like three maximum is rather weak while unlimited is super strong. If having 4 bites isn't the answer I think something else needs to be added to balance it out.
The problem is everything I try to come up with has downsides. Keeping the drained message puts a target on the vampire's back and risks the town/mafia killing the drained people. Even if it has 3, 4, or infinite bites this is still a problem. Removing the message, however, makes it a buffed arso that, if two people die per day/night or more depending on killing roles, can win by day 4 without any warning. If you tried to remove the killing ability and instead make it have to bite every living person then it's just a hex master, or if drained targets become "vampires" and passively bite visits/visitors it's just a buffed PB(because it wins as soon as everyone is drained). If you remove biting in favor of killing then it just becomes an SK unless you add something else unique, but then it just becomes a buffed SK. Giving it a maximum of two drained people seems like it could work but then it can only really win either when there is 5 people left or the vampire can somehow convince the drained people to help lynch an extra player or two even when the fact that there is a vamp is now known.
I don't know where the middle ground is anywhere with these things. Maybe I am overthinking it but I really feel like it's either OP or UP when trying to balance it's unique abilities yet removing them just makes it a copy of a different role. I love the idea, it would be very fun to successfully get three people drained and then kill that night and win, I just can't think of any way to balance it without removing what makes it unique compared to other neutrals. Am I missing something?
alex1234321 wrote:The first question is whether or not there should be a notification. With a notification, 4 or even unlimited uses could be UP, but that would be crazy. With no notification, having 3 uses could be fair and 4 would probably be OP. Personally, I prefer to have the notification since it would make the role more relevant to the game and the Vampire would need more bites, which would reduce the penalty for a failed bite.
There are other ways to balance the role. If it's UP, the bites could be made powerful or even unstoppable. If it's OP, maybe the triple roleblock could be removed but I like that mechanic. The regular kill strength could be weakened as well, but Doctor might counter that too strongly. So it's definitely possible to fine-tune the balance of the role.
The more that I think about it, the more 4 bites seems okay. The average player should be able to get three bites if they aren't lynched in the process. Good players can get it faster and bad players don't get as many successful bites. The average KPN would be around 1.2 which is a lot but it would be less if players actively play against the Vampire. And it'd be hard to argue that four uses with the notification would still be OP.
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
superdog551 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:The first question is whether or not there should be a notification. With a notification, 4 or even unlimited uses could be UP, but that would be crazy. With no notification, having 3 uses could be fair and 4 would probably be OP. Personally, I prefer to have the notification since it would make the role more relevant to the game and the Vampire would need more bites, which would reduce the penalty for a failed bite.
There are other ways to balance the role. If it's UP, the bites could be made powerful or even unstoppable. If it's OP, maybe the triple roleblock could be removed but I like that mechanic. The regular kill strength could be weakened as well, but Doctor might counter that too strongly. So it's definitely possible to fine-tune the balance of the role.
The more that I think about it, the more 4 bites seems okay. The average player should be able to get three bites if they aren't lynched in the process. Good players can get it faster and bad players don't get as many successful bites. The average KPN would be around 1.2 which is a lot but it would be less if players actively play against the Vampire. And it'd be hard to argue that four uses with the notification would still be OP.
I think 4 bites with a max of 3 drained alive plus the notification is probably the most balanced it can get while still remaining fun. Unless biting someone who is protected wastes that bite I don't think they need to be buffed. Really if they were buffed it would make the role OP again because then the vamp could bite the jailor and other confirmed townies which town wont kill and mafia will have trouble killing most of the game. So yeah, bites are fine as is. I also like the role block ability and I don't think that needs to be changed.
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
Cavespider17 wrote:I have a few questions on this:
1) What's the time gap between feedings?
2) With the 4 uses, from what I understand is you can have 4 players drained at any time - is there a time cap on when these players die from drain-exhaustion?
3) Is the kill action a single night action? Or is it a multi-night action?
4) Does killing a player also kill one of the drained players?
Just a few things to think on
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