Duckferno wrote:-Mayor is unable to reveal on the first day.
-All the town except for the Jailor and Mayor have basic defense for only the first night.
-When Consigliere sizes up a member of the Mafia, it will only show they are part of the Mafia.
-Mafia cannot win with both witches alive, one must be lynched/killed.
-Jester starts with powerful defense but it degrades by the amount of times attacked. (Powerful --> Basic --> None)
-If the game goes on without someone dying for two nights in a row, a player will randomly be selected to die. (Just a Thought, Could be Better)
Ezradekezra wrote:Duckferno wrote:-Mayor is unable to reveal on the first day.
-All the town except for the Jailor and Mayor have basic defense for only the first night.
-When Consigliere sizes up a member of the Mafia, it will only show they are part of the Mafia.
-Mafia cannot win with both witches alive, one must be lynched/killed.
-Jester starts with powerful defense but it degrades by the amount of times attacked. (Powerful --> Basic --> None)
-If the game goes on without someone dying for two nights in a row, a player will randomly be selected to die. (Just a Thought, Could be Better)
I don't see the point of any of these changes except for the Jester one.
Duckferno wrote:-Jailor
-Town Investigative
-Town Protective
-Town Killing
-Transporter
-Mayor
-Godfather
-Godfather
-Mafia Killing
-Random Mafia \
-Random Mafia (Consigliere - Unique)
-Random Mafia /
-Witch
-Witch
-Jester
-Members of the Mafia cannot see who their teammates or their roles are.
-Mayor is unable to reveal on the first day.
-All the town except for the Jailor and Mayor have basic defense for only the first night.
-When Consigliere sizes up a member of the Mafia, it will only show they are part of the Mafia.
-Mafia cannot win with both witches alive, one must be lynched/killed.
-Jester starts with powerful defense but it degrades by the amount of times attacked. (Powerful --> Basic --> None)
-If the game goes on without someone dying for two nights in a row, a player will randomly be selected to die. (Just a Thought, Could be Better)
Sey979 wrote:Jailor
TP
GF
Mafioso
RM
RM
RM
NE
NE
NK
NK
Jester
Jester
Jester
Jester
Darkness3827 wrote:One of the things I would like to see in terms of a different role list would be to try a jailorless list. The current meta revolves so heavily around Jailor that I feel it would be good to have a second list that does not have Jailor to freshen things up a bit. This first list revolves around replacing Jailor's kill power with a Vigilante and a Veteran. The guaranteed Vigilante makes me a bit worried that the game could go in Evils favor super quickly in a Witch game, but I feel ultimately the power of Veteran as well as the existence of the Neutral Killing are enough to make it so it wouldn't be an auto win for Mafia if the Witch controls a Vigilante into shooting another Town member. If people don't like having the Neutral Killing then it could be swapped for an extra Vigilante or an extra Random Town.
Guaranteed Town Killing:
Veteran
Vigilante (could swap for a 2nd Town Support or a 4th Random Town)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Random Town (no Jailor)
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing (could swap for a 2nd Vigilante, or 4th Random Town)
This second role list revolves around Town trying to stay alive as long as possible and win the game through lynching all evils. The middle ground between the two lists IMO would be to remove the 2nd Town Protective for a guaranteed Veteran, but I wanted to focus on trying to make this list as different as possible to the first list given. The lack of a guaranteed killing role puts far more onus on Town to get their shit together and lynch evils in an efficient manner. If Town screws up with a lynch then that will put them in trouble very quickly since they can not rely on a Jailor or other Town Killing role to bail them out. In this list it is possible for Town to be the minority by Day 3 if they doesn't lynch an evil on Day 2. If people were against having a Neutral Killing in the list then it could be swapped for an extra Witch or an extra Random Town.
No Guaranteed Town Killing:
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective (could swap for a Veteran)
Town Support
Town Support
Random Town (no Jailor)
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing (could swap for a Witch or 4th Random Town)
Darkness3827 wrote:My initial thought was to make it a 10v5 since the 9v6 works because the 6 evils aren't necessarily on the same side as the Neutral Killing wants both Mafia and Town to lose, Jester is all alone, and Witch can choose to side with Mafia or with the Neutral Killing. 9v6 with all 6 evils being Mafia to me starts to stray into being tilted too far towards Mafia since the Mafia know who all the evils are and with 6 roles have so much information to use. With that said however, I still think it's probably more balanced than a 10v5 mainly because of the existence of Mayor. In a 10v5 having both a Jailor and a Mayor feels like it would be pretty close to an auto win for most games.
No NE, No NK list, 9v6:
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
santirostanarauz wrote:Jaiilor
TI
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT
RT
RT
Godfather
Mafioso
RM
RM
Wich
RN
Brilliand wrote:Since a 6-Mafia list is even more maf-sided than the 5 Mafia+Witch list was, I think this proposal needs to include both a guaranteed Jailor and a guaranteed Mayor to be viable.
Soulshade55r wrote:Jailor - Jailor should always be a guaranteed slot random Jailors spawning is bad.
Mayor - 6 Scum who objectively work with each other are powerful and random mayors are swingy
Town Investigative - Always should be one Investigative
Town Protective - Should be 1 to 2 Protectives on average each game
Town Killing - Extra Killing support, but can be used by witch to help mafia [Aka shooting town with vig or making town visit vet]
Random Town - 4 Random slots drastically weakens ccing Ti, Tp ect.
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing [Amb or Mafioso]
Mafia Support - Extra Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Witch - Witch is the Best example of a NE whos objectively aganist the town, Witch would be the strongest "Mafia" but be a lone wolf until they find maf.
My orignal suggestion actually had guaranteed mayor of course imo ambusher shouldn't spawn
Harryyoshi wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Jailor - Jailor should always be a guaranteed slot random Jailors spawning is bad.
Mayor - 6 Scum who objectively work with each other are powerful and random mayors are swingy
Town Investigative - Always should be one Investigative
Town Protective - Should be 1 to 2 Protectives on average each game
Town Killing - Extra Killing support, but can be used by witch to help mafia [Aka shooting town with vig or making town visit vet]
Random Town - 4 Random slots drastically weakens ccing Ti, Tp ect.
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing [Amb or Mafioso]
Mafia Support - Extra Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Witch - Witch is the Best example of a NE whos objectively aganist the town, Witch would be the strongest "Mafia" but be a lone wolf until they find maf.
My orignal suggestion actually had guaranteed mayor of course imo ambusher shouldn't spawn
I would prefer guaranteed Mafioso or an MK slot. 1 TI is actually much worse, since now, the same problem will happen with the other Town alignments, if there is only one claim they are automatically confirmed. Plus, having more than 3 random town will greatly reduce the effectiveness of adding more, since they actually don't add any more claim space.
Ezradekezra wrote:/nosupport
This is literally the Season 4 list, but with the NK slot replaced with a SK. Given that SK is the hardest NK to win as, I don't think that we need a super hardmode that you get 1/15th of the time.
FlamingJune05 wrote:Ezradekezra wrote:/nosupport
This is literally the Season 4 list, but with the NK slot replaced with a SK. Given that SK is the hardest NK to win as, I don't think that we need a super hardmode that you get 1/15th of the time.
Hello. Firstly, thanks for your comment.
In Season 4; Neutral Killing roles and random mafia members has not such powers like today. There was no Ambusher nor Hypnotist; Disguiser not used to messing Spy and Lookout informations. I see your point and that's right; but playing SK was ''never'' easy to play. On the other hand; if Mafia killed the Jailor at n1, town loses a large part of their power. (Since Vigi cannot shot without information about who is really evil), I think SK would be great in town and also SK can work with Exe, Jester or Witch. So there would be 3 main team - neutrals, mafia and town. It is just mafia and town fight right now and I think it is boring. But of course it is subjective comment and it can be improved with another opinions.
Ezradekezra wrote:FlamingJune05 wrote:Jailor
Town Invest
Town Invest
Town Protect
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town 1
Random Town 2
Random Town 3
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Serial Killer
-
I don't change the current list too much; I just modified Witch / Exe as '' Neutral Evil '' category and I added Serial Killer as 15th place. Here is why;
1) Usually; mafia members don't want to win with Witch (because community is toxic and they think killing their outer-assistant is hilarious). So they either kill or lynch the witch at late game. Witches are usually victims in these toxic games.
2) In connection with reason 1; Witch don't have freedom to choose who to play with. Witch ''has to'' help mafia -no matter how bad / toxic they are. In past; Witch was free about play with whoever s/he wants, but it is impossible now.
3) I am also aware about neutral killing's buff's; that's why I avoid adding ''neutral killing category'', so I put Serial Killer. Because with Arsonist or Werewolf, ''Town Win'' is nearly impossible. SK's buffs can be handled if town play good and carefully. Besides, SK can kill mafia members too, so there would be balance about non-town members. There is no balance in current role-list. Why? Clearly; Exe plays with Maf to lynch his target, Witch plays with Maf because it is his/her only option. So... Mafia organically has 4 people, but in reality, Mafia has 6 people during vote secanses: One friend who cannot be killed during all game (Exe), and another one who feed them with exact informations about roles of town members (Witch). It is just ''too much power'' for evils. Yes there is a ''Vigilante'' role who can kill mafia members; but generally Witch uses the Vigi and kills another townie with him. We need a non-town role who can kill mafia members with his free-will and, I think, best option for this role is SK.
/nosupport
This is literally the Season 4 list, but with the NK slot replaced with a SK. Given that SK is the hardest NK to win as, I don't think that we need a super hardmode that you get 1/15th of the time.
Darkness3827 wrote:Yeah the 2nd list in particular would change massively based on if a Mayor is in the game. Only way to get around that would be to remake the list with a guaranteed Mayor and try to build it around that. I know Neutral Killings are very love it or hate it, personally I like em but I understand a lot of people don't, which is why I provided the alternatives. Personally though I think either both the Neutral Evil and Neutral Killing have to go or both have to stay. With just Neutral Evil, Witch is forced to side with Mafia and Jester is far more likely to be a kingmaker than if there is a Neutral Killing as a third party to disrupt that. With that said here are a few lists that could work with no Neutral Evil or Neutral Killing.
My initial thought was to make it a 10v5 since the 9v6 works because the 6 evils aren't necessarily on the same side as the Neutral Killing wants both Mafia and Town to lose, Jester is all alone, and Witch can choose to side with Mafia or with the Neutral Killing. 9v6 with all 6 evils being Mafia to me starts to stray into being tilted too far towards Mafia since the Mafia know who all the evils are and with 6 roles have so much information to use. With that said however, I still think it's probably more balanced than a 10v5 mainly because of the existence of Mayor. In a 10v5 having both a Jailor and a Mayor feels like it would be pretty close to an auto win for most games.
No NE, No NK list, 9v6:
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
In order to get the 10v5 list to work I think it's imperative that the game can't have both a Jailor and a Mayor. That would simply tip the scales way too far towards Town. Thus the rolelist either has a Jailor or it has a Mayor. With this stipulation then I think a 10v5 list could work given that Mafia has the extra kill power through the Ambusher. Adding the 4th Random Town at least makes it so Mafia has a good bit more claim space so it should be much harder for Town to simply use the rolelist to determine who is evil. This seems like the most balanced way a 10v5 could work. The main issue with this list is that the winrate might be highly dependent on whether it is a Jailor game or a Mayor game. Unfortunately there isn't much of a way to deal with that other than to just remove Mayor from the rolelist entirely which would be kinda lame I feel.
No NE, No NK list, 10v5:
Jailor or Mayor (whichever one isn't picked can not be in the role list)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Like with the 2nd list I posted in my prior post this list revolves around Town winning through lynching evils and not getting support from kills during the night. This deals with the Mayor issue by simply balancing the list around a guaranteed Mayor. I was debating whether or not to put a guaranteed Ambusher in, but ultimately I think giving Mafia an additional kill per night isn't that big of a deal, given the fact that a Mayor exists in the role list, especially since the Ambusher can't kill the Mayor themselves. It also makes it much more difficult for the Mayor to be protected if an Ambusher can very easily kill the person protecting them, making it far more risky for a Mayor to reveal which adds a lot more strategy I feel and prevents it becoming too similar to the Jailor meta but with a Mayor instead. EDIT: made it 10v5 instead of 9v6.
No NE, no NK, no Jailor list:
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Support
Random Town (no Jailor)
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Ultimately I think these role lists would get a bit boring as a permanent role list due to the lack of Neutrals, but they could work as part of a Ranked cycle. Something along the lines of a list with Jailor & Neutrals (aka the old list), a list with no Jailor but with Neutrals, a list with Jailor but no Neutrals, and a list with no Jailor and no Neutrals.
rakso98 wrote:I think ranked is fine as it is, but the Coven ranked role-list is too similar (structurally) to the normal ranked role list. I would change Coven ranked to be more different from normal ranked, to cater to people who have a different taste. That way it could become more popular than it is now.
A lot of people like the "un-swinginess" of the current ranked role list, but I think there are people who also wouldn't mind something that is a bit more fast paced, variable and chaotic/swingy to replace the Coven ranked (especially fans of Coven all any). That way playing the two different ranked game-modes would feel quite different and people could play the one they like.
I have two suggestions for possible role lists:
Role list without Neutral Killing:
Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town support
Town killing
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Executioner
Role list with Neutral Killing:
Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)
Justifications for excluding Psychic and Spy:
-Psychic is just RNG based, there is little strategy involved (in ranked that is bad)
-Spy is quite similarly to Psychic in that most of the info that you get, comes to you without needing to visit any player/do anything. The existence of this role restricts mafia/coven too much, as it is a hard counter to at least the hypnotist and framer (as well as immune-to-attack evils), which are already by far the weakest mafia roles. Because of this role alone, many mafia in normal ranked choose to not use certain fake claims, and often choose not to visit anyone on night 1. If Coven is added to the ranked role list, having spy as a possibility is even more overpowered for town.
Notes:
-Some people might feel that town is underpowered, but the evils are not all on the same side, and they often will kill each other. Town can still for sure win (if you have played Coven All Any, you know this). Also town is supposed to be a bit weaker when there are multiple factions (so that the other factions can also win)!
-I have excluded neutral benign and neutral chaos roles from these role lists, because they either make the balance of power too random (e.g Guardian Angel will make some random faction much stronger), or the game otherwise too chaotic.
-Comparing the two role lists, the one with neutral killing has a jester instead of an executioner, so that town is not more weak
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