Pirate (Rework)

[RiceHatMan]

Role:
Pirate

Alignment:
Neutral (Evil)

Changes:
- Rock, paper, scissors is removed, it is replaced with a different system
- Pirate may choose to bait, deceive, swindle or pursue during their duel
- The target may choose to attack, investigate, bargain, or flee during their duel, depending on their night ability
\\\\- If the target has a direct attack as a night ability, they are able to choose "attack". This includes Arsonist, Hex Master, and Poisoner
\\\\- If the target is a Town (Investigative), Mafia (Deception), or Consigliere, they are able to choose "investigate"
\\\\- If the target is capable of giving notification as a night ability that is not categorized as an "attack", or cannot leave their home using their night ability, they are able to choose "bargain"
\\\\- All targets are able to flee
- If Pirate wins, the following will happen
\\\\- If Pirate: bait/////Target: attack//////Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: deceive//Target: investigate//Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: swindle//Target: bargain/////Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target. The target is still able to use their night ability if it doesn't involve visiting
\\\\- If Pirate: pursue///Target: flee////////Pirate wins, role blocks the target and deals a Basic attack to the target
- If Pirate loses, the following will happen
\\\\- If Target: attack//////Pirate will be directly visited and attacked by the target using their night ability
\\\\- If Target: investigate//Pirate will be directly visited and the target will know the Pirate's name
\\\\- If Target: bargain/////Pirate will not be directly visited and the Pirate will lose a plunder if they have more than 0. The target is still able to use their night ability if it doesn't involve visiting
\\\\- If Target: flee////////Pirate will not be directly visited and the target will be free to use their night ability
- If the [color=#FFBF00]Pirate wins, they will visit their target[/color]
- There is no cool-down for any of the choices
- Pirate now super-role blocks instead of normal role blocking, but it now depends on what the target chooses
- You may not successfully plunder a person two times in a game
- You now need to plunder 3 (used to be 4) times to win
- If you successfully plunder someone with natural defense, it will not add to your plunder count. You won't die, however, if they decide to "attack", since you still won the duel
- Serial Killer and Werewolf won't automatically attack you if you lose the duel. They will attack you, however, if they chose "attack" and you lose
- If you successfully plunder a non-faction role, it will not add to your plunder counter
- The alignment is changed to Neutral (Evil)

Additional Notes:
You can still duel the same person twice in a game, it's just if you win, it won't count towards your plunder count.

[DiamondRanger8]

Tbh this is much better than the completely luck based pirate now. Rock paper scissors isn't very fun for the pirate or the player. The Neutral Evil alignment change is great, since I've always wanted to see pirate in ranked. Imo, all the Neutral Chaos roles would be just fine in ranked with the exception of vampire.

[cob709]

too complicated and unnecessary

/nonsupport

[Brilliand]

I like this idea overall. Why does the Pirate not get credit for plundering a fleeing Serial Killer, though?

The super-roleblock feels a little off to me, probably because this Pirate can reliably block roles that are neither offensive nor investigative (i.e. Escort). Perhaps the second option should be changed to "ignore", i.e. "risk your life to not get roleblocked at all" (available only to non-killing roles).

Also, while this role is definitely an improvement over the current Pirate, I'm still concerned that it's more townsided than a Neutral Evil should be.

Anyway, /support, with the qualification that there's probably an even better idea waiting in the wings.

too complicated and unnecessary

It's "necessary" because the current Pirate is just a game of rock-paper-scissors (which is dumb). It's only slightly more complicated that the current Pirate, so I see the tradeoff as well worth it.

[cob709]

too complicated and unnecessary

It's "necessary" because the current Pirate is just a game of rock-paper-scissors (which is dumb). It's only slightly more complicated that the current Pirate, so I see the tradeoff as well worth it.

This will be difficult to explain to players in game, and will cause lots of confusion. For example, the whole "unique" role argument usually takes forever to sort out.

Also, the Pirate can't be considered Neutral(Evil) because it doesn't directly work against the town. I suggest keeping it in Neutral(Chaos).

- If Pirate wins, the following will happen
\\\\- If Pirate: bait/////Target: attack//////Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: deceive//Target: investigate//Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: swindle//Target: flee////////Pirate wins but doesn't deal a attack
- If Pirate loses, the following will happen
\\\\- If Target: attack//////Pirate will be directly visited and attacked by the target using their night ability
\\\\- If Target: investigate//Pirate will be directly visited and the target will know the Pirate's name
\\\\- If Target: flee////////Nothing happens

if none of these happen, then what happens?

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

- If Pirate wins, the following will happen
\\\\- If Pirate: bait/////Target: attack//////Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: deceive//Target: investigate//Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: swindle//Target: flee////////Pirate wins but doesn't deal a attack
- If Pirate loses, the following will happen
\\\\- If Target: attack//////Pirate will be directly visited and attacked by the target using their night ability
\\\\- If Target: investigate//Pirate will be directly visited and the target will know the Pirate's name
\\\\- If Target: flee////////Nothing happens

if none of these happen, then what happens?

One of those must happen

Say target is Doctor
Doctor cannot attack, so cannot select the Attack option
Doctor cannot investigate, so cannot select the Investigative option
Doctor must select flee

I'm assuming you are asking what happens if the target doesn't select an option. I'm just gonna assume the TARGET automatically flees, while the PIRATE automatically swindles.

[cob709]

- If Pirate wins, the following will happen
\\\\- If Pirate: bait/////Target: attack//////Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: deceive//Target: investigate//Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: swindle//Target: flee////////Pirate wins but doesn't deal a attack
- If Pirate loses, the following will happen
\\\\- If Target: attack//////Pirate will be directly visited and attacked by the target using their night ability
\\\\- If Target: investigate//Pirate will be directly visited and the target will know the Pirate's name
\\\\- If Target: flee////////Nothing happens

if none of these happen, then what happens?

One of those must happen

Say target is Doctor
Doctor cannot attack, so cannot select the Attack option
Doctor cannot investigate, so cannot select the Investigative option
Doctor must select flee

I'm assuming you are asking what happens if the target doesn't select an option. I'm just gonna assume the TARGET automatically flees, while the PIRATE automatically swindles.

Target: Flees
Pirate: Deceives
Result: Nothing?

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

Also I like this idea. However, there are some flaws to it.

I like the idea of the Pirate actually having the pay attention to how the game is playing out and make good target selection, but this Pirate really just hard-tunnels TP, TS, MS/MD, and most Coven roles.
The following roles are basically a free win for the Pirate: (total of 24 roles)
Spoiler: Doctor
Bodyguard
Crusader
Trapper
Escort
Mayor
Transporter
Medium
Retributionist
By your definitions, Jailor and Veteran
Ambusher
Blackmailer
Consort
Disguiser
Forger
Framer
Hypnotist
Janitor
Coven Leader before N3.
Medusa without Necro.
Hex Master without Necro.
Medusa without Necro.
Necromancer without Necro.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

- If Pirate wins, the following will happen
\\\\- If Pirate: bait/////Target: attack//////Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: deceive//Target: investigate//Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: swindle//Target: flee////////Pirate wins but doesn't deal a attack
- If Pirate loses, the following will happen
\\\\- If Target: attack//////Pirate will be directly visited and attacked by the target using their night ability
\\\\- If Target: investigate//Pirate will be directly visited and the target will know the Pirate's name
\\\\- If Target: flee////////Nothing happens

if none of these happen, then what happens?

One of those must happen

Say target is Doctor
Doctor cannot attack, so cannot select the Attack option
Doctor cannot investigate, so cannot select the Investigative option
Doctor must select flee

I'm assuming you are asking what happens if the target doesn't select an option. I'm just gonna assume the TARGET automatically flees, while the PIRATE automatically swindles.

Target: Flees
Pirate: Deceives
Result: Nothing?

Oh I see

I don't know. Duel fails and nothing happens? Pirate loses, no one is attacked and name isn't revealed?

[cob709]

Spoiler:

- If Pirate wins, the following will happen
\\\\- If Pirate: bait/////Target: attack//////Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: deceive//Target: investigate//Pirate wins and deals a Basic attack to the target
\\\\- If Pirate: swindle//Target: flee////////Pirate wins but doesn't deal a attack
- If Pirate loses, the following will happen
\\\\- If Target: attack//////Pirate will be directly visited and attacked by the target using their night ability
\\\\- If Target: investigate//Pirate will be directly visited and the target will know the Pirate's name
\\\\- If Target: flee////////Nothing happens

if none of these happen, then what happens?

One of those must happen

Say target is Doctor
Doctor cannot attack, so cannot select the Attack option
Doctor cannot investigate, so cannot select the Investigative option
Doctor must select flee

I'm assuming you are asking what happens if the target doesn't select an option. I'm just gonna assume the TARGET automatically flees, while the PIRATE automatically swindles.

Target: Flees
Pirate: Deceives
Result: Nothing?

Oh I see

I don't know. Duel fails and nothing happens? Pirate loses, no one is attacked and name isn't revealed?

Oh, I suppose that would work.

Yeah, I suppose this would be a good replacement for the current pirate in that case.

Does pirate have basic defense?
Target: Attacks
Pirate: Baits
Target and Pirate attack each other
Pirate "wins", meaning they survive, right?

[Brilliand]

Does pirate have basic defense?
Target: Attacks
Pirate: Baits
Target and Pirate attack each other
Pirate "wins", meaning they survive, right?

Pirate has no defense, but using "bait" blocks the target from counterattacking (even if the target is Werewolf, presumably).

[RiceHatMan]

Does pirate have basic defense?
Target: Attacks
Pirate: Baits
Target and Pirate attack each other
Pirate "wins", meaning they survive, right?

Yes, because technically the target never attacked. The outcome of the duel determines what actually happens, so Pirate was never attacked and deals a Basic attack to the target. Pirate doesn't not gain any defense, since that would be problematic if someone else would decide to attack them.

[RiceHatMan]

I like this idea overall. Why does the Pirate not get credit for plundering a fleeing Serial Killer, though?

It's to make this role more evil sided, as there is absolutely no point in targeting evils with defense.

The super-roleblock feels a little off to me, probably because this Pirate can reliably block roles that are neither offensive nor investigative (i.e. Escort). Perhaps the second option should be changed to "ignore", i.e. "risk your life to not get roleblocked at all" (available only to non-killing roles).

Yeah I either need to make the choices available to a broader amount of roles, or make more choices. i also need to balance some.

Also, while this role is definitely an improvement over the current Pirate, I'm still concerned that it's more townsided than a Neutral Evil should be.

Of course, it could side with Town. The catch here is that there aren't many evils to plunder, since you can't plunder roles with natural defense. Maybe I will add more penalties for losing as the target, so Town can't just give you free plunders by fleeing. Keep in mind you need to plunder 4 people, but I might change that to 3 for balance.

[RiceHatMan]

Also I like this idea. However, there are some flaws to it.

I like the idea of the Pirate actually having the pay attention to how the game is playing out and make good target selection, but this Pirate really just hard-tunnels TP, TS, MS/MD, and most Coven roles.
The following roles are basically a free win for the Pirate: (total of 24 roles)
(I don't have spoiler tag...)

I plan on making the choices available to more roles or make new changes. In the meantime, I will come up with and balance new changes.

[RiceHatMan]

Made changes! Changes in Pink.
Added a new option for Pirate and the target.
If you don't know what roles that can directly give notifications, here's a list:
- All TP (including Potion Master heal)
- All Escort, Consort, Witch, and Coven Leader
- Blackmailer
- Transporter
- Arsonist
Here's a list of roles that cannot visit using their night ability, or have no night ability at all
- Mayor
- Medium
- Veteran
- Medusa
- Jailor
- Ambusher(this is a huge, but necessary, exception)

Roles with more than 2 choices:
Potion Master's range of choices depends on which potions are on cool-down. Choosing to attack, investigate, or bargain will use the corresponding potion, starting the cool-down for that potion. This means they are able to access all 4 choices in one night.
Medusa always has the ability to bargain, and will gain the ability to attack once they have the necronomicon.
Coven Leader always has the ability to bargain, and will gain the ability to attack once they have the necronomicon.
Arsonist will always have access to attack and bargain. Notice how Arsonist will douse the Pirate in any situation if Arsonist decides to attack, since the Pirate will visit you if you fail to douse them anyway.

Godfather and Mafioso:
Godfather does not have access to "attack" if there is a Mafioso alive. If they chose "bargain", the Godfather will still be able to choose who the Mafioso will attack, but the attack will fail if the Mafioso is jailed or role blocked. This is still useful since your Mafioso may get controlled. Godfather will have access to "attack" if there is no Mafioso alive. This is vice-versa for "bargain".
Mafioso always and only has access to "attack". However, if the Godfather orders you to attack someone, the Godfather will instead attack their target and your "attack" will be cancelled (the game will act as if you chose flee and didn't do your ability).

[Brilliand]

- Each choice for the Pirate will have a three (used to be two) night cool-down (like Potion Master)

Wait, why does the Pirate have a cooldown on his options at all? Seems to me giving the Pirate a choice between multiple unequal options of the point of this rework; taking away those choices limits that benefit.

\\\\- If Target: bargain/////Pirate will not be directly visited and the Pirate will lose a plunder if they have more than 0. The target is still able to use their night ability if it doesn't involve visiting

I don't like the "lose a plunder" option being a possibility. It seems both overly cruel to the Pirate, and not useful enough to the target. It'd probably be okay to just strip that part out and have this be the "nothing happens" outcome, though.

What if instead of having distinct "Kill" and "Investigate" options, there was a generic "visit the Pirate" option available to all visiting roles? It wouldn't need to count as a control, since choosing that option would be an intentional choice on the part of the target, even if they didn't know who the pirate is. It would still need the "learn the Pirate's name" outcome, and that could be limited to just the roles with role-learning abilities... but I don't see any harm in simplifying that to "any visiting role can learn the Pirate's name this way".

[RiceHatMan]

Wait, why does the Pirate have a cooldown on his options at all? Seems to me giving the Pirate a choice between multiple unequal options of the point of this rework; taking away those choices limits that benefit.

I guess you are right. Adding to that, this also makes Pirate's job especially harder depending what roles are in the game.

I don't like the "lose a plunder" option being a possibility. It seems both overly cruel to the Pirate, and not useful enough to the target. It'd probably be okay to just strip that part out and have this be the "nothing happens" outcome, though.

I might come up with a new outcome for that Pirate loss. The thing is, "nothing happens" will make the duel risk free for the Pirate. That makes this option way better than trying to pursue them, and I am trying to make them all equal for the time being.
What if instead of having distinct "Kill" and "Investigate" options, there was a generic "visit the Pirate" option available to all visiting roles? It wouldn't need to count as a control, since choosing that option would be an intentional choice on the part of the target, even if they didn't know who the pirate is. It would still need the "learn the Pirate's name" outcome, and that could be limited to just the roles with role-learning abilities... but I don't see any harm in simplifying that to "any visiting role can learn the Pirate's name this way".[/quote]
I mean, that would be a little too broad if everyone that can visit were to be able to learn their name. Some roles do completely nothing when they visit the Pirate, such as all of the TI, which is why I gave the option exclusively to them. Role blockers and controllers also don't do anything, which is why I gave them the option to bargain.

[RiceHatMan]

Also, the Pirate can't be considered Neutral(Evil) because it doesn't directly work against the town. I suggest keeping it in Neutral(Chaos).

Neutral (Evil) don't have to directly work against Town. They work against anyone that won't give them their win, not just Town. Plus, there are only three Mafia that you can plunder, and chances are, you won't be able to plunder all three of them. This means you will need to plunder 1 or 2 Town if you really want to work with Town, meaning the trade-off is worse for Town than giving a Jester a free lynch.