Jugg Op compared to other NK.

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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Brilliand » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:07 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:Alternatively, the Juggernaut could be upgraded to powerful defense on the second kill. It would make Juggernaut more powerful in the long run, but it would delay the rampage and unstoppable attacks while making the Juggernaut/Pestilence achievement less gamethrow-y.


This would be better than giving the Jugg Astral. I approve.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:16 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:Alternatively, the Juggernaut could be upgraded to powerful defense on the second kill. It would make Juggernaut more powerful in the long run, but it would delay the rampage and unstoppable attacks while making the Juggernaut/Pestilence achievement less gamethrow-y.


This would be better than giving the Jugg Astral. I approve.

Nah

After Jugg gets his 5th kill the game ends and he wins automatically obv
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:29 am

Ezradekezra wrote:What about changing Juggernaut so that it starts with a one-time barrier, like what Witch has, and then upgrading it to actual defense later on?

Alternatively, the Juggernaut could be upgraded to powerful defense on the second kill. It would make Juggernaut more powerful in the long run, but it would delay the rampage and unstoppable attacks while making the Juggernaut/Pestilence achievement less gamethrow-y.


He doesnt need powerful defence. The role was designed to have (and use) the strongest attack in the game. Pest was designed to have the strongest defence. Powerful defence would make Jugg immune to WW and immune to his own attack (until his attack powers up) would also make him immune to BG, trap, vet.

Also Im sure Jugg ignores BG and trapper when hes fully powered up (Bypasses anything that protects a player) so n6 onwards. Im not sure, but he may even ignore GA protection.

Yes Jugg is OP, it was designed that way. It was also weak. too many people complained that it was too weak, so it got the basic defence buff. Before the buff, town had 3 nights to deal with him. If anything needs to be done to solve ''the problem'' they should just revert it to how it was designed in the first place.... no defence til n3, no unstoppable rampage until n6. (but apparently thats ''too hard'' to win with....altho I managed to do it 10 times...)
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:19 pm

kyuss420 wrote:Also Im sure Jugg ignores BG and trapper when hes fully powered up (Bypasses anything that protects a player) so n6 onwards.


I can't remember where I saw this, but I'm sure I saw it confirmed recently that if a full-power Juggernaut walks into a Bodyguard/Trapper protection, both the Juggernaut and his target die. That is, the Juggernaut "kills through" the protection, but doesn't entirely bypass it.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:23 pm

Wouldn't upgrading Juggernaut to powerful defense after the second kill (as I suggested before) eliminate confusion over how the final power-up works with a Bodyguard or Trapper? Both of them only have powerful attacks, so powerful defense would make Juggernaut fully immune to killing TPs.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:17 am

Ezradekezra wrote:Wouldn't upgrading Juggernaut to powerful defense after the second kill (as I suggested before) eliminate confusion over how the final power-up works with a Bodyguard or Trapper? Both of them only have powerful attacks, so powerful defense would make Juggernaut fully immune to killing TPs.


It would, but you forget that the OP complained that Jugg is too hard to kill, now that he has basic defence, so thats what makes him more OP than other NKs.... he is too hard to kill.... (really no harder than any other NK) I think this is what the thread was about anyway....
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Brilliand » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:28 am

kyuss420 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:Wouldn't upgrading Juggernaut to powerful defense after the second kill (as I suggested before) eliminate confusion over how the final power-up works with a Bodyguard or Trapper? Both of them only have powerful attacks, so powerful defense would make Juggernaut fully immune to killing TPs.


It would, but you forget that the OP complained that Jugg is too hard to kill, now that he has basic defence, so thats what makes him more OP than other NKs.... he is too hard to kill.... (really no harder than any other NK) I think this is what the thread was about anyway....


Yes. This line of discussion about buffing the Juggernaut came about in response to this:

kyuss420 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:Here's an idea: Make Juggernaut start with a basic attack instead of a powerful one, and give them the powerful attack as a reward for the second kill, replacing what used to be gaining defense. It might make Juggernaut a bit underpowered if too many people have defense, though.


problem is when they hit someone with basic defence n2. May as well give up there and then..... no kill means no power up, means 2 more nights before a kill attempt can be made again.. Would also make WW a stronger version of Jugg XD


Ezradekezra proposed a nerf to Juggernaut, you objected that that would be an over-nerf, and then I started the discussion of ways to buff Juggernaut a little more to compensate for that.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:16 am

oh yea

So OP was complaining that Jugg has basically won the match, if hes alive n6 (unless he walks into a vet, BG, trapper, jailor, WW, Arso, Pest, pirate, jester.... or if everybody decides to stay home cos, ya know, fully powered up jugg on the loose) because hes too hard to kill.

but Id argue that if WW is alive n6, he also has basically won the match (unless he walks into a vet, BG, trapper, jailor, Jugg, Arso, Pest, pirate, jester.... or if everybody decides to stay home cos, ya know, WW on the loose)
or if Pest was alive n6 (unless he walks into a TP combo.... or if everybody decides to stay home cos, ya know, Pest on the loose)

Joca complained that the rampage treaded on WWs toes too much... (altho jugg can rampage a jailor and kill the jailed target...which is written in the lore) to which I argued that Jugg has always been a stronger version of WW at end game and a stronger version of SK in early game (apart from the defence, which was never really Juggys thing anyway).

Easy fix... make the role rare again ^^
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:42 am

What would making the role rarer fix? Bragging rights?
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:33 am

Joacgroso wrote:What would making the role rarer fix? Bragging rights?


noobs would stop complaining that hes too hard to kill/too OP, becuase they wouldnt face a Jugg as often. Probably why they made it rare to begin with...... but apparently the community wanted it less rare and wanted more games with a powerful role in play, because no one said shit on the ''buff jugg'' and the ''make jugg more common'' threads
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:34 am

Personally I believe making a role super rare is a very cheap way of making it interesting. Roles should be interesting because of their mechanics. I see no reason to revert its rarity.
I don't think the devs made juggs rare so "noobs" wouldn't complaint. They probably wanted a surprise role and didn't think much about it.
And obviously, hiding something that may be a problem so people won't complaint instead of fixing it is a mediocre idea. Either listen to the "noobs" and "fix" it, or convince them why it's not broken. It's not like they can do much anyway.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:15 am

Joacgroso wrote:Personally I believe making a role super rare is a very cheap way of making it interesting. Roles should be interesting because of their mechanics. I see no reason to revert its rarity.
I don't think the devs made juggs rare so "noobs" wouldn't complaint. They probably wanted a surprise role and didn't think much about it.
And obviously, hiding something that may be a problem so people won't complaint instead of fixing it is a mediocre idea. Either listen to the "noobs" and "fix" it, or convince them why it's not broken. It's not like they can do much anyway.


Yea, I dont think it was broken before. I dont think its broken now either. But early game Jugg is much easier now than before. Late game Jugg is really no different to a Pest or WW being in match late game, probably easier for town and evil factions than a late game Pest. In a game with no kingmakers, Id much prefer to face a Jugg than a pest... either way youre not gonna be visiting
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby wozearly » Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:20 pm

I'm broadly with kyuss on this as well.

Pre-change Jugg's main curse was the lack of Basic Defence until after the 2nd kill, particularly in the context of it usually being spawned in All Any. Being a rare role with huge vulnerability to Sheriff and Invest that tended to get randomly killed a lot made the early game a royal headache for Jugg, with passing through it mostly being a matter of luck rather than design. Also, by the time it reached full horror-show status with all of its upgrades, the Jugg had usually all but won the game anyway. I'm not surprised it had a terrible winrate.

Its still got terrible Invest results, albeit marginally less awful, but it can at least go toe to toe against other killers in the early game and have a fighting chance of becoming a horrific, unstoppable nightmare if left alone.

There's a fair comment that by its second kill it outclasses the Werewolf, except for the debateable Sheriff detection immunity on non-full moon nights; if that's seen as a major issue, a potential fix would be to make Rampage the final upgrade (ie, giving Unstoppable after 2nd kill, Rampage after 3rd). Giving the WW the ability to 'bloody' wills of people it kills might also help to separate the two, as that would make the WW more freely able to rampage at home without being instantly revealed via a will if anyone visits.

Personally, I think it sits in quite an interesting niche between SK and WW, with tactics veering from one role to the other as the game progresses. And I'd second the thought that all else being equal, I'd much rather be facing off against the Juggernaut rather than Pestilence.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby ScarfVendetta » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:15 am

wozearly wrote:I'm broadly with kyuss on this as well.

Pre-change Jugg's main curse was the lack of Basic Defence until after the 2nd kill, particularly in the context of it usually being spawned in All Any. Being a rare role with huge vulnerability to Sheriff and Invest that tended to get randomly killed a lot made the early game a royal headache for Jugg, with passing through it mostly being a matter of luck rather than design. Also, by the time it reached full horror-show status with all of its upgrades, the Jugg had usually all but won the game anyway. I'm not surprised it had a terrible winrate.

Its still got terrible Invest results, albeit marginally less awful, but it can at least go toe to toe against other killers in the early game and have a fighting chance of becoming a horrific, unstoppable nightmare if left alone.

There's a fair comment that by its second kill it outclasses the Werewolf, except for the debateable Sheriff detection immunity on non-full moon nights; if that's seen as a major issue, a potential fix would be to make Rampage the final upgrade (ie, giving Unstoppable after 2nd kill, Rampage after 3rd). Giving the WW the ability to 'bloody' wills of people it kills might also help to separate the two, as that would make the WW more freely able to rampage at home without being instantly revealed via a will if anyone visits.

Personally, I think it sits in quite an interesting niche between SK and WW, with tactics veering from one role to the other as the game progresses. And I'd second the thought that all else being equal, I'd much rather be facing off against the Juggernaut rather than Pestilence.

Sheriff has never been able to find a Juggernaut as suspicious.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby wozearly » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:40 pm

ScarfVendetta wrote:Sheriff has never been able to find a Juggernaut as suspicious.


Quite right. To be fair, it's been a little while since my last Coven game, so I'm not surprised my recollection is a little rusty...
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