Buffing Poisoner with Necronomicon

[Ezradekezra]

I've heard that the Poisoner is the weakest Coven role because it gains next to nothing from possessing the Necronomicon. I'd like to discuss possible buffs for the Poisoner's Necronomicon boost.

My idea: In addition to the Poisoner's current boosts from the Necronomicon, the Poisoner deals a basic attack on the night of the initial poisoning which is then upgraded to a powerful attack on the following night, if the poison victim survives until then. This speeds up the Poisoner's kills and allows them to kill NKs, which should be especially useful in Coven All Any.

What does everyone else think? Any other ideas?

(Sorry if this is the wrong subforum)

[cob709]

This post should probably be in the Suggestions or Role Ideas subforum.

I think this would be a good buff.
/support

[Ezradekezra]

This post should probably be in the Suggestions or Role Ideas subforum.

Yeah, it could go there too. My reasoning in putting it here would be so people could also discuss their proposed changes, as that seems to be what happens in the buff threads here.

[Joacgroso]

The thing is that coven usually has more than 1 member. This would be pretty unfair for NKs, who have a lower winrate in balanced gamemodes. Being solo poisoner is very hard, but the game shouldn't be balanced around all any.
On the other side, I agree that poisoners need buffs, and since coven already has 3 roles that can kill NK (4 if there is vet + CL), this would actually make the game less swingy.

[Ezradekezra]

The thing is that coven usually has more than 1 member. This would be pretty unfair for NKs, who have a lower winrate in balanced gamemodes. Being solo poisoner is very hard, but the game shouldn't be balanced around all any.

In all of the modes that people actually play that have multiple Coven members, there are no NKs. Also, only a single Coven member can have the Necronomicon at a time, so I don't really understand that point either.

[Joacgroso]

Plaguebearer is pretty much NK too. I'll never understand why it hasn't been moved to NK yet. Coven RP also has NK slots. Just because no one plays it it doesn't mean devs should give up on balancing the gamemode that is supposed to be balanced. Doing otherwise will only make the problem worse.
What I meant by saying coven has more members is that they don't need the buff as desperately as a solo poisoner, since they can vote their enemies out if they play well enough.

[Ezradekezra]

Whether or not the Coven has more members doesn't matter much imo because only one Coven member can have the Necronomicon at a time. The current buff I'm proposing still makes the role worse than Medusa with the Necronomicon, as the Powerful attack for the Poisoner is delayed and the victim isn't stoned.

[Brilliand]

For the record, multiple Coven members is how most Coven All Any games start too - but the Coven usually gets reduced to a single member over the course of the game, if they get anywhere close to losing.

The same applies to the Mafia, so it may be worth considering what the Mafia winds up with when reduced to one member. That's usually the Mafioso... but, the Mafioso is embarrassingly weak too (just slightly stronger than the Poisoner+Necronomicon).

[Joacgroso]

Whether or not the Coven has more members doesn't matter much imo because only one Coven member can have the Necronomicon at a time. The current buff I'm proposing still makes the role worse than Medusa with the Necronomicon, as the Powerful attack for the Poisoner is delayed and the victim isn't stoned.

Yeah, no coven role beats Medusa with necro. I mean that more coven can take more risks and lose more members than any NK. They can also lynch their enemies without recurring to kingmakers.
I assume the only reason why Medusa doesn't get necronomicon n3 is to intentionally nerf the coven, right?

[Ezradekezra]

I assume the only reason why Medusa doesn't get necronomicon n3 is to intentionally nerf the coven, right?

There's a priority list for the Necronomicon beyond the Coven Leader getting it first? I thought it was just given out either randomly or based on lobby order.

[Joacgroso]

That wasn't what I meant. I don't know how priorities work in coven. I was just saying that having necro n3 would obviously benefit Medusa more than coven leader, and that I guess it's an intentional nerf. It's not just a thematic feature, right?

[Ezradekezra]

I always thought that the reason the Coven Leader got the Necronomicon first was because they're the Coven equivalent to the Godfather. Maybe there is more of a reason behind it, though. I could see why it could be to keep the more powerful Necronomicon effects from being unlocked first.

Does anyone know for sure?

[Joacgroso]

The lore may also be important, but of course it would be better for the coven if Medusa got the necronomicon first, since she is useless without it and can take the biggest advantage out of it by cleaning everyone she kills, while the CL can be pretty useful without the book.

[Ezradekezra]

Personally, I'm fine with the Necronomicon priority that there currently is. Unlike with Mafia promotions, it doesn't force someone into an entirely different role, but it rather buffs an existing role, so it isn't as annoying when a certain role gets the Necronomicon instead of another, like when a Consort gets promoted instead of a Disguiser. The priority isn't really the point of the post, though.

If you think my proposal is too unfair to NKs and too OP for multi-person Covens, do you have any suggestions that might work better?

[Joacgroso]

I don't think much about coven, since I play vanilla. As I said, although your option doesn't seem fair for NKs, the truth is the coven has lots of ways to get rid of them anyway without even voting, so this wouldn't worsen the problem that much.

[Brilliand]

Poisoner pretty much has to get an immediate kill when visiting an ordinary Town player with the Necronomicon. The powerful attack one night later strikes me as an acceptable way to keep the theme of the 'poisoner' going, though I wouldn't consider it a great solution.

A second Basic attack one night later (even if the target is saved the first night) might actually be better for the theme, since it takes away the "for killing NKs" aspect and moves the focus to "for screwing with Doctors", which is what Poisoner has always been good for anyway.

[Ezradekezra]

A second Basic attack one night later (even if the target is saved the first night) might actually be better for the theme, since it takes away the "for killing NKs" aspect and moves the focus to "for screwing with Doctors", which is what Poisoner has always been good for anyway.

This could work, too. If we go with this change instead of my proposal, I'd like to add that if protected, nobody is told that the attacker was a Poisoner (iirc attack + protect messages are different for Poisons). This would make it less likely that a TP would just stay on the target for the second night.

[Joacgroso]

Yeah, Brilliand's suggestion sounds better. Even if targets knew they were poisioned, which would be obvious after poisoner gets 2 kills in 1 night, doctors would be forced to choose between 2 potential victims.

[MegaLT]

Poisoner pretty much has to get an immediate kill when visiting an ordinary Town player with the Necronomicon. The powerful attack one night later strikes me as an acceptable way to keep the theme of the 'poisoner' going, though I wouldn't consider it a great solution.

A second Basic attack one night later (even if the target is saved the first night) might actually be better for the theme, since it takes away the "for killing NKs" aspect and moves the focus to "for screwing with Doctors", which is what Poisoner has always been good for anyway.

I was thinking of allowing poisoner to poison 2 people at the same night, but your idea is even better! allthough this would still make poisoner a weak role, not every game is a doctor game, poisoner would be still slow in killing, which is the main reason it's worst coven role with necro.

[DiamondRanger8]

I've heard that the Poisoner is the weakest Coven role because it gains next to nothing from possessing the Necronomicon. I'd like to discuss possible buffs for the Poisoner's Necronomicon boost.

My idea: In addition to the Poisoner's current boosts from the Necronomicon, the Poisoner deals a basic attack on the night of the initial poisoning which is then upgraded to a powerful attack on the following night, if the poison victim survives until then. This speeds up the Poisoner's kills and allows them to kill NKs, which should be especially useful in Coven All Any.

What does everyone else think? Any other ideas?

(Sorry if this is the wrong subforum)

Honestly this is what I think should be changed. This would at least make it better than just a delayed mafioso.

[DiamondRanger8]

Poisoner pretty much has to get an immediate kill when visiting an ordinary Town player with the Necronomicon. The powerful attack one night later strikes me as an acceptable way to keep the theme of the 'poisoner' going, though I wouldn't consider it a great solution.

A second Basic attack one night later (even if the target is saved the first night) might actually be better for the theme, since it takes away the "for killing NKs" aspect and moves the focus to "for screwing with Doctors", which is what Poisoner has always been good for anyway.

That could work as well. I %100 think that poisoner should get some buff with the Necronomicon. Hopefully they release some poisoner buffs or changes when they release the mafia buffs, whenever that may be.

[Confectionery]

Make Poisoner's visit a passive visit, with and without Necronomicon.

[Ezradekezra]

Make Poisoner's visit a passive visit, with and without Necronomicon.

The point of the buff is to make it stronger with the Necronomicon, not without. The Poisoner is good enough without the Necronomicon because it's already an extra factional kill.