Mystoc wrote:OP Transporter with none of the downsides, the fact its TP is weird since it doesnt stop an attack while all other TP do
this seems more support then TP but i feel u made it TP cause u realized its just an OP transporter and wouldnt make sense as TS
Harryyoshi wrote:This role functions similarly to the Bodyguard when it comes to the protection part, so the attack against their target is negated. The main rebuttal is in the first reply.
Mystoc wrote:maybe you click someone people and if they are evil the attacker attacks them instead
Brilliand wrote:
This role sidesteps all of that by only affecting kills. The Diversionist can be roleblocked, can't counter evil non-killing effects, and is only as confirmable as a Doctor. I think that more than makes up for the fact that it can't kill the person it's trying to protect like a Transporter can.
not protecting from RB or witch amolst never comes up, any role thats worth countinly RBing your better off just killing has an evil
the only true weakness this has is douses and hexes, are delayed attacks so they arent consider true attacks and i dont think this role would stop those
its being a one way transporter is a huge upside as well since it messes up much less actionsMystoc wrote:maybe you click someone people and if they are evil the attacker attacks them instead
That would combo too well with a Vigilante.
Mystoc wrote:not protecting from RB or witch amolst never comes up, any role thats worth countinly RBing your better off just killing has an evil
Brilliand wrote:Though, I'd prefer to reduce this role's confirmability a little more by not even informing the Diversionist's target that they were attacked. The Transporter doesn't notify the target about that, so I don't see why the Diversionist's target should be notified either.
Some questions:
- What happens if this role and a Doctor both visit a person who is being attacked? Does the Doctor stop the attack or not?
- More extreme case: What happens if this role, a Doctor and a Bodyguard are all on the Jailor on N2 when a Werewolf decides to hit the Jailor to go out with a bang?
Brilliand wrote:Mystoc wrote:not protecting from RB or witch amolst never comes up, any role thats worth countinly RBing your better off just killing has an evil
I've had Transporter vs. Witch conflicts come up a lot. A Transporter that can't interfere with the Witch, but can be redirected by the Witch instead, is much less powerful in Witch games.
The Mafia can't kill every important role. They only get one kill per night, and almost every role is important in this game. On top of that, it sometimes happens that you want a player shut down but NOT killed (this is particularly likely for a Blackmailer's targets).
Lalur wrote:Arguably, transporter's best capability is being able to redirect mafia attacks to other mafia. However this comes with a lot of downsides such as messing up TI results, TPs, vigilantes, and getting the wrong target killed.
The diversionist as others mentioned does this without any of those problems, so it completely overshadows transporters. Sure, the transporters can still redirect other evil abilities however this really isn't so powerful and compared to all the problems it causes it's just eh. And the redirecting of evil abilities negates the process of elimination using who is visited by mafia. This role also doesn't have this downside because the visits are astral.
Harryyoshi wrote:Lalur wrote:Arguably, transporter's best capability is being able to redirect mafia attacks to other mafia. However this comes with a lot of downsides such as messing up TI results, TPs, vigilantes, and getting the wrong target killed.
The diversionist as others mentioned does this without any of those problems, so it completely overshadows transporters. Sure, the transporters can still redirect other evil abilities however this really isn't so powerful and compared to all the problems it causes it's just eh. And the redirecting of evil abilities negates the process of elimination using who is visited by mafia. This role also doesn't have this downside because the visits are astral.
I pretty sure you didn't read my first reply, because you are literally saying a problem that has been stated and refuted...and stated again. This role can only "transport" when your target is attacked. Also, a transporter "best capability" is not arguably being able to redirect mafia attacks, it's just ruining an evils potential in general. Mafia, NE, and NK need to be a step ahead of Town in every aspect to win, not just killing. Not to mention that all the downsides to Transporter you mentioned aren't relevant to this role. Messing up TI results doesn't matter because you can get everything sorted out during the day. TPs won't matter, you are last resort and you should transport people who call for TP if there are TP left. If there is no Jailor meta, it won't matter anyway if they are random protecting. Vigilante mess-up aren't mutually exclusive to Transporters, this role also has them too. Getting the wrong target killed is also a problem for this role. Also, a Transporter can redirect many evil visits that aren't considered harmful visits, such as role blocks, controls, and douses, and this definitely outweighs the minuscule downsides that can be fixed with experienced players.
Harryyoshi wrote:So, this role works exactly like a Bodyguard when it comes to protecting the target, but not dealing the attack. For the first question, the Diversionist will successfully divert the attack, while the Doctor will still get the notification that their target was attacked. This also means this role can only divert one attack per Divertionist, so if another role were to attack the victim, the victim will get the notification that they were successfully healed by a Doctor. For the second question, the Doctor will be the one to do nothing, since Bodyguard already has a higher protecting priority than them. I really don't know what should happen with the Bodyguard and the Diversionist, but I do think that the Diversionist should take priority, even if in this situation the Bodyguard would have been better. This is just due to the fact that, if I were to remove the notification the victim gets, it makes sense to make the Bodyguard more last-resort than the Diversionist. The outcome? Firstly, all the TP would die from the rampage, and the Diversionist's second target would be dealt with a astral Powerful Werewolf attack, with no rampage included.
Harryyoshi wrote:This also reminds me, I have put it in the main post. Witches many only control your first target, not your second, and since your second target is dealt with an astral visit, they are also not affected by Transporters.
Brilliand wrote:Harryyoshi wrote:This also reminds me, I have put it in the main post. Witches many only control your first target, not your second, and since your second target is dealt with an astral visit, they are also not affected by Transporters.
Astral visits do not bypass Transporters. Transporter bypass is its own thing, and should be listed separately if the role can do it.
I don't really get why the Diversionist's attack should bypass Transporters, though. Accidentally putting the Diversionist's attack in the wrong place seems like just the sort of mistake a Transporter should be able to make.
Brilliand wrote:Harryyoshi wrote:So, this role works exactly like a Bodyguard when it comes to protecting the target, but not dealing the attack. For the first question, the Diversionist will successfully divert the attack, while the Doctor will still get the notification that their target was attacked. This also means this role can only divert one attack per Divertionist, so if another role were to attack the victim, the victim will get the notification that they were successfully healed by a Doctor. For the second question, the Doctor will be the one to do nothing, since Bodyguard already has a higher protecting priority than them. I really don't know what should happen with the Bodyguard and the Diversionist, but I do think that the Diversionist should take priority, even if in this situation the Bodyguard would have been better. This is just due to the fact that, if I were to remove the notification the victim gets, it makes sense to make the Bodyguard more last-resort than the Diversionist. The outcome? Firstly, all the TP would die from the rampage, and the Diversionist's second target would be dealt with a astral Powerful Werewolf attack, with no rampage included.
Ah, that's less fun and more confirmable than I expected. So it's a Bodyguard that gets a Vigilante shot on success, instead of giving its life to kill an evil on success; not a lesser Transporter that transports only specific actions, like I've been imagining.
Ezradekezra wrote:Hey, I think I've seen this one before!
Harryyoshi wrote:Brilliand wrote:Ah, that's less fun and more confirmable than I expected. So it's a Bodyguard that gets a Vigilante shot on success, instead of giving its life to kill an evil on success; not a lesser Transporter that transports only specific actions, like I've been imagining.
If this were the case, could you elaborate on what this role would have been if they were a limited Transporter?
Ezradekezra wrote:Hey, I think I've seen this one before!
Brilliand wrote:Harryyoshi wrote:Brilliand wrote:Ah, that's less fun and more confirmable than I expected. So it's a Bodyguard that gets a Vigilante shot on success, instead of giving its life to kill an evil on success; not a lesser Transporter that transports only specific actions, like I've been imagining.
If this were the case, could you elaborate on what this role would have been if they were a limited Transporter?
If this role were a limited Transporter, then when it came time for kills to be calculated, any killer visiting the Diverter's primary target would switch over to visiting the Diverter's secondary target instead. So, in the Werewolf example, the Werewolf would rampage at the house of the Diverter's secondary target, and no one but the Werewolf would be able to tell that the Werewolf didn't do that intentionally. (In that case the Diverter should count as visiting both targets, so that the Werewolf can still kill him at least.)
Presumably a Coven Leader with Necronomicon would control her actual target but then have her Necronomicon attack diverted, allowing the Town to figure out that a Diverter intervened (or, alternately, giving the Coven an extra kill by way of Medusa).
Harryyoshi wrote:(I'm assuming this role would be TS in this reply)
Harryyoshi wrote:This is good, however, there are a few mechnically broken things with this, and something needs to be dropped for this role to work. Firstly, control and role block immunity are mutually exclusive with visiting both targets. Why? You need the highest priority, which is 1, just like the transporter in order to visit both targets, because a Witch should be able to control your visits, and being able to control one of your visits and not the other is weird and probably mechanically broken.
Harryyoshi wrote:I could, however, make this role so that they only visit their first target and not the second, similar to the original idea, and make this role exactly how you explained it. This role would then have to make a priority from 3 - 4, which means they go after Witches, role blockers, and Transporters, but before any direct attackers.
Brilliand wrote:Harryyoshi wrote:This is good, however, there are a few mechnically broken things with this, and something needs to be dropped for this role to work. Firstly, control and role block immunity are mutually exclusive with visiting both targets. Why? You need the highest priority, which is 1, just like the transporter in order to visit both targets, because a Witch should be able to control your visits, and being able to control one of your visits and not the other is weird and probably mechanically broken.
No... it isn't mechanically broken, and it's only weird if the two visits are interchangeable (which they are for the full Transporter, but wouldn't but for this limited Transporter).
Harryyoshi wrote:Well, the thing is, even if the visits are not interchangeable, it would still be quite weird because of the fact you visit both targets. A Witch should be able to control who you visit, and one of your visits not being able to be controlled, is a bit weird and hasn't ever been implemented.
Harryyoshi wrote:However, the most mechanically broken part of this is you can visit the same person twice in a night. Could you die from a rampage attack twice?
Brilliand wrote:Harryyoshi wrote:However, the most mechanically broken part of this is you can visit the same person twice in a night. Could you die from a rampage attack twice?
A Transporter can visit the same person twice in a night if another Transporter interferes. The game seems to handle it just fine.
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