Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:18 pm

cob709 wrote:tbh the game shouldn't be about win rates.

it should be about player skill and strategy
each faction should have equal chances of winning

i mean you also have to think about win rates being connected to balance and stuff. I would be worried if the NKs we doing better than the team of evils with communication and knowledge but that's clearly not the case.

Of course beyond winrates some roles need to be buff/changed anyways.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:21 am

SK change about killing 2 people is terrible.

WW change is boring and too late game oriented. Why not implement this rework instead?
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Superalex11 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:47 am

Here's some more data, now looking at just ranked, sorting wins based on the NK present. Again, these go through all P2P reports and exclude guilty GT, MA, cheating, and leaving.
Image
So, put simply:
In ranked games with an arso, town wins 52.64%, mafia wins 34.98%, and the arso wins 10.08%.
In ranked games with a ww, town wins 51.83%, mafia wins 35.18%, and the ww wins 11.04%.
In ranked games with an sk, town wins 50.83%, mafia wins 37.37%, and the sk wins 9.84%.

I think this shows nicely where the public perception of sk>ww>arso comes from, as that ordering is true from town's perspective.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:23 am

Alright. Now some stuff is starting to make sense about why most people think SK > WW > Arso but winrate says another way. Glad we're all not insane
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:21 am

HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:
Superalex11 wrote:Ok so I did a dumb and didn't actually go through all P2P reports, just 2020's. Made the fix, and also excluded guilty MA+Leaving reports since they line up with the idea of cheating and GT:

https://i.gyazo.com/6c181f295c20faa09ee ... 248422.png


Quick stats for simplicity.

Town has about ~52% win rate

Mafia has about ~36% win rate

NK in total has about ~10% win rate

Still about ~2% of games are draws/stalemates/solo NE wins

I highly doubt this guy has 200k+ games played unless I’m understanding the graphic wrong because it’s utterly confusing.
I am kindly telling you to fuck off mate.

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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby ScarfVendetta » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:31 am

BasicFourLife wrote:I highly doubt this guy has 200k+ games played unless I’m understanding the graphic wrong because it’s utterly confusing.

He is using Trial System reports as the basis for his data.
Just some Sheriff who didn't claim until Day 5, and has no leads whatsoever

No need to be alarmed...
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby oddluck » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:37 am

Ok one question. If Escort targets SK and gets a blood soaked will at the same time that Mafia and Janitor target Escort and clean them. Does it clean the blood off the will?
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Freechancer » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:08 am

A cleaned person's will is not shown in the first place, so if they were to implement it literally, there should be no indication they died rbing the sk (except that sk will probably have killed two people, which would make it very obvious).
If you meant if jani could still see their will then I guess they would but is a good question.

I'm fairly certain sk attacks all roleblockers so sk killing multiple people in a single night has been a thing, though this is different, of course. On the other hand, this will just promote escort coordinating with a confirmed townie (which is a good thing) so the extra kill is a bigger deal both for sk and town. It's not like escort (or even consort) is supposed to rb "at random", so it's not very clear what this is supposed to "solve". Unless you meant to make sk more noob-friendly and better in all any.

It does puzzle me how come sk is the nk that helps maf more than themselves. I imagine they would have to be hanged more often as they should be best at keeping the balance.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:06 am

SK is more likely to be found out and 1 KPN means it is always a threat to town for a lynch target. WW can at the very least have (against a known invest) a sheriff claim compared to SK's doctor claim which would be auto susp if there's a lookout with jailor meta or any confirmed town. (Although WW would be just as likely doomed in the long run)
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby ydnnek » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:14 am

Superalex11 wrote:Here's some more data, now looking at just ranked, sorting wins based on the NK present. Again, these go through all P2P reports and exclude guilty GT, MA, cheating, and leaving.
So, put simply:
In ranked games with an arso, town wins 52.64%, mafia wins 34.98%, and the arso wins 10.08%.
In ranked games with a ww, town wins 51.83%, mafia wins 35.18%, and the ww wins 11.04%.
In ranked games with an sk, town wins 50.83%, mafia wins 37.37%, and the sk wins 9.84%.

I think this shows nicely where the public perception of sk>ww>arso comes from, as that ordering is true from town's perspective.


Curious, how did you grab these 200k reports quickly?
I'd like to perform some own analyses in R as well.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Confectionery » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:33 am

OH, about buffing Juggernaut too.

Give him an investigator result as well.

I think BG/GF/Arso/Crus/Juggernaut would fit rather nicely.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Robbytherobot » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:42 am

I feel that sk should not be given more KPN already sk games move too quickly, personally I like it when mafia gets majority day 5 or 6 not on day 3 or 4.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby ZedKiller13 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:59 am

I’m honestly dumbfounded on how people think the SK change is horrible still, when it literally only gives SK a situational advantage that can deal heavy damage quickly.

SK will still remain heavily counterable on all sides and this virtually unchanges it, so why would you be against it?

The Werewolf literally relies on winning late game anyway. This change increases their kill power quickly and causes town to think quickly. I’d say putting a time-bomb in Ranked might be better since it’ll pressure the Town early before people start really dying off quick already combined with the Mafia.

The Arsonist change simply allows for more opportunity to get kills in and to produce strategies to adapt to it.

These buffs all passively help each role. The role itself remains unchanged and its abilities remain the same, and thinking up ways to modify NK roles specifically for that is pretty tough.

People I see having issues with these changes seem to be wanting an entire role rework on the mind, but that is completely unrelated to the buffs in general.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Confectionery » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:08 am

Also, I don't see the issue with the Arsonist buff.

Giving him Plaguebearer properties is an excellent idea, and the people who complain about it are upset that they can't win frequently as Town anymore if these buffs are introduced.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby FrenchyTheSphee » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:47 am

I really like all the buffs especially the Arsonist buff the most, since it kills the Jailor tp lo meta.

Also love the Lookout nerfs, this allows mafia to legit claim spy/doc/bg/escort/lookout and just say that they all visited jailor which would be over 7 visits and would be too messy for lookouts.

WW buff is also nice, just gives him a bit of an emph to his damage.

Even with the Serial killer buff, I feel like Serial killer will be the worst NK where before he was the best NK. After this patch, Serial killer will definetally need another buff in the future, but lets see how this folds on.

Either way, the pace that the updates are coming out is amazing. If this continues on the game will definetally revitalize and become a whole lot better.

Here are some quick roles that need to be changed in the future for you to decide which one to pick in the next patch:

Buffs:

Blackmailer(Just a tiny buff), Retributionist (funny seeing this guy on the buff list)

Nerfs:

Mayor, Transporter, Jailor

Reworks:

Consig, Spy, Medium, Disguiser (or instead of reworking you can buff), Forger (Just give him Blackmailers whisper ability), Framer and last but not least MAFIOSO change this guy he is so trash
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Brilliand » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:56 pm

FrenchyTheSphee wrote:Reworks:

Consig


What? Your list was mostly pretty defensible, but I don't see how the Consig needs a change at all.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby OreCreeper » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:34 pm

FrenchyTheSphee wrote:I really like all the buffs especially the Arsonist buff the most, since it kills the Jailor tp lo meta.

Also love the Lookout nerfs, this allows mafia to legit claim spy/doc/bg/escort/lookout and just say that they all visited jailor which would be over 7 visits and would be too messy for lookouts.

WW buff is also nice, just gives him a bit of an emph to his damage.

Even with the Serial killer buff, I feel like Serial killer will be the worst NK where before he was the best NK. After this patch, Serial killer will definetally need another buff in the future, but lets see how this folds on.

Either way, the pace that the updates are coming out is amazing. If this continues on the game will definetally revitalize and become a whole lot better.

Here are some quick roles that need to be changed in the future for you to decide which one to pick in the next patch:

Buffs:

Blackmailer(Just a tiny buff), Retributionist (funny seeing this guy on the buff list)

Nerfs:

Mayor, Transporter, Jailor

Reworks:

Consig, Spy, Medium, Disguiser (or instead of reworking you can buff), Forger (Just give him Blackmailers whisper ability), Framer and last but not least MAFIOSO change this guy he is so trash

Blackmailer doesn't need a buff, it's already good enough.
Mayor doesn't need a nerf, it's like the most balanced "town power" role atm imo
Consig is fine, it does it's job.
Forger is OP af if you know how to play the role, but most people don't and just erase wills so idk.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Confectionery » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:40 pm

FrenchyTheSphee wrote:
Even with the Serial killer buff, I feel like Serial killer will be the worst NK where before he was the best NK. After this patch, Serial killer will definetally need another buff in the future, but lets see how this folds on.



The solution? Let him select himself and attack a random visitor to him. Roleblockers don't count as they get attacked anyway due to the buff.

FrenchyTheSphee wrote:
Here are some quick roles that need to be changed in the future for you to decide which one to pick in the next patch:

Buffs:

Blackmailer(Just a tiny buff), Retributionist (funny seeing this guy on the buff list)

Nerfs:

Mayor, Transporter, Jailor

Reworks:

Consig, Spy, Medium, Disguiser (or instead of reworking you can buff), Forger (Just give him Blackmailers whisper ability), Framer and last but not least MAFIOSO change this guy he is so trash


For Blackmailer, I think give him a day ability that allows him to tap into a random night chat.

So if you activate the ability, you will see either one of the following:

Jailor/Jailee chat
Vampire chat
Coven chat
Medium seancing chat

You won't get their names, only the faction they are in.

For Transporter, add Hypnotist to the normal gamemode so people will think it's Hypnotist faking transporter.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Brilliand » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:45 pm

Confectionery wrote:The solution? Let him select himself and attack a random visitor to him. Roleblockers don't count as they get attacked anyway due to the buff.


I don't have any reason to oppose this, but I don't see how this would help anything either?

Confectionery wrote:For Blackmailer, I think give him a day ability that allows him to tap into a random night chat.


I think Blackmailer should only get abilities that have something to do with Blackmailing.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby OreCreeper » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:48 pm

ZedKiller13 wrote:I’m honestly dumbfounded on how people think the SK change is horrible still, when it literally only gives SK a situational advantage that can deal heavy damage quickly.

SK will still remain heavily counterable on all sides and this virtually unchanges it, so why would you be against it?

The Werewolf literally relies on winning late game anyway. This change increases their kill power quickly and causes town to think quickly. I’d say putting a time-bomb in Ranked might be better since it’ll pressure the Town early before people start really dying off quick already combined with the Mafia.

The Arsonist change simply allows for more opportunity to get kills in and to produce strategies to adapt to it.

These buffs all passively help each role. The role itself remains unchanged and its abilities remain the same, and thinking up ways to modify NK roles specifically for that is pretty tough.

People I see having issues with these changes seem to be wanting an entire role rework on the mind, but that is completely unrelated to the buffs in general.

Well SK change nerfs the SK and indirectly buffs mafia. Because before if an escort died to SK there is at least some doubt but now if the escort whispers someone who they RB and their will is covered in blood it just auto-confirms who the SK is. Werewolf usually does not last till "late game", in fact most of them die after N2 where a werewolf is revealed cuz sheriff claims are immediately sus and WW always claims sheriff even in high elo ranked for reason beyond my understanding but the point is most werewolves die by N4 cuz they're a weak sheriff claim with no info and sheriff is a WW claim. Arsonist should not be getting more than one douse per night. Arso has a solid TP claim and a way higher survivability than both SK and Werewolf, it does not need yet another buff that lets it kill people super fast like thats the definition of broken. Oh and also it doesn't even let the arso choose who he wants to douse so if its 4v3v1 and the arso passively douses 2 townies, igniting basically hands the win to maf. Overall these changes do very little to help NK win except for arso buff (which is gamebreaking) and most of the time just makes it so they take down more townies before they die. SK change is an automatic reveal, WW change would be fine if most WWs actually lived long enough to be affected by the change, and the Arso change should just be scrapped overall.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby GreekGodSudura » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:59 pm

Brilliand wrote:...and that's definitely not what the folks over in Role Ideas were expecting. (I think the most commonly-guessed order was SK>WW>Arso.)


Almost like their god complex is a god complex and not them being messiahs.

Who knows, though? Role Ideas is a toxic forum full of egotistical nutballs who believe themselves to be the greatest infallible messengers of Jesus himself. While making TERRIBLE role ideas, I should add.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Brilliand » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:06 pm

GreekGodSudura wrote:Almost like their god complex is a god complex and not them being messiahs.

Who knows, though? Role Ideas is a toxic forum full of egotistical nutballs who believe themselves to be the greatest infallible messengers of Jesus himself. While making TERRIBLE role ideas, I should add.


Role Ideas is a community of people having discussions. It isn't a closed community in any sense.

Also I think you're projecting, with a name like "GreekGodSudura".
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Confectionery » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:21 pm

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=110606

Tell me what you think of these, comment on what you think needs to be changed.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Superalex11 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:46 pm

ydnnek wrote:Curious, how did you grab these 200k reports quickly?
I'd like to perform some own analyses in R as well.

The secret is it wasn't quick. This is a big project I've been working on since March and I've only recently got it to a point where I can efficiently parse the data. I'll PM you some details.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby GreekGodSudura » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:14 pm

Brilliand wrote:
GreekGodSudura wrote:Almost like their god complex is a god complex and not them being messiahs.

Who knows, though? Role Ideas is a toxic forum full of egotistical nutballs who believe themselves to be the greatest infallible messengers of Jesus himself. While making TERRIBLE role ideas, I should add.


Role Ideas is a community of people having discussions. It isn't a closed community in any sense.

Also I think you're projecting, with a name like "GreekGodSudura".


And I think you're one of the people that makes it that way.

Funny how that be.

But sure, get offended over a sarcastic name. Let's not go into the spoken and "Unspoken" rules of Role Ideas, made by a small group of unsavory community members who view themselves as Judge, Jury and Executioner of the roles. Nobody cares if you don't like conversion, or hardcounters, or names being too similar, or NKs that aren't better balanced than the current ones ??? - Like c'mon, roles equivalent to the ones IN THE GAME get ripped up for being too bad, because everything must be 100% ideal even though the game itself isn't.

Spy, Vampire Hunter
Vampire
ALL OF THE NKs

No. It's a toxic terrible place. And it's why BMG never ever looks at it.
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