Remove Witch from TT

[Savagepeyton]

I know I have seen people suggest this elsewhere, but I am going to create a discussion for it. Please remove witch from TT! As the game mode is currently, witch, being an evil with killing capabilities provided that a TK is alive, needs to be killed before the Traitor countdown timer starts. However, in most cases, witch is unable to kill on a regular basis (either because they can’t find TK or they are deliberately being kept alive and blocked by jailor). The witch presence makes it so that town can start looking for TT before the timer begins without having to worry about being killed by evils. As a result, most people quit as witch when only TT is left to give evils a chance to win, as they are unable to win themselves at this point. In other words, witch being in TT basically encourages throwing, which is not healthy for the game environment!

It can’t really win in TT anyway. If you think about it, the only way for witch to win in TT is via mafia winning the regular way (by just killing all town members and tricking town with fake claims). However, a mafia win without relying on TT timer is almost nonexistent in TT mode (due to the large number of townies to begin with, and also because winning via TT timer is easier so most mafia will find ways to deliberately get themselves killed such as by making really bad claims). And not only does mafia have to win the regular way, but witch has to survive too (which is hard enough to do in regular modes). As a result, most people who get witch in TT consider the game to be a guaranteed loss.

Instead of witch, I think that jester would be a better neutral to include in TT. Jester would have lodes of fun in TT. In a mode where the slightest wrong thing said is guaranteed to get you lynched, the jester should have no problem getting the win most times. It would also be cool in TT because it would add to the already high amount of paranoia; potentially lynching the jester could mean losing retributionist or another confirmed town member, thus creating a penalty for randomly lynching for TT. Jester also wouldn’t need to be killed in order for the TT timer to start, thus creating the possibility that town will waste a much-needed day on killing the jester.

At any rate, whether jester is included or not, WITCH NEEDS TO GO!!! Witch is virtually impossible to win in TT and encourages throwing in order to help mafia win. Not only does it not contribute very many positive things to the game mode (as a witched vigilante shooting a townie often helps town in TT), it hurts the mafia’s chance of winning significantly. PLEASE REMOVE WITCH FROM TT!!!

[MewNyanFan700]

/support
Or at the very least let the timer start with them alive...

[MysticMismagius]

I think Witch's slot should be replaced with an RM
It's effectively a 5th Mafia, but just worse
Just make the 10v5 official and cut neutrals out of the picture

[Robbytherobot]

Witch needs to be removed I cant tell you how many times town keeps witch alive to find tt using jailor, or how many times witch gets bussed by mafia early so tt has a chance of winning, its hard to coordinate and should be changed to something useless like forger.

[Soulshade55r]

RM for witch would make the game mode way better

[Pixies]

omg yes! I support this wholeheartedly!

I've always said to change witch to something like Exe or Jester. The jester can act as a TT to get lynched and let the Exe have a TT as a target.

Winning as the witch is really hard. Maf either finds you, and you get found out by spies or invests, or you get found out by the LO.

[FrenchyTheSphee]

/easysupport

[Brilliand]

I've always said to change witch to something like Exe or Jester. The jester can act as a TT to get lynched and let the Exe have a TT as a target.

The Jester would be a safe lynch during the TT countdown, since the Jester haunt would be just as likely to hit the TT as a lynch would.

The Exe would be a confirmed non-Traitor, and I doubt the Town would mind lynching his target when they're randoming "townies who might be Traitor" anyway.

Neither of those would help scum much at all.

[FrenchyTheSphee]

I've always said to change witch to something like Exe or Jester. The jester can act as a TT to get lynched and let the Exe have a TT as a target.

The Jester would be a safe lynch during the TT countdown, since the Jester haunt would be just as likely to hit the TT as a lynch would.

The Exe would be a confirmed non-Traitor, and I doubt the Town would mind lynching his target when they're randoming "townies who might be Traitor" anyway.

Neither of those would help scum much at all.

Jester does not help TT, Jester helps MAFIA and is indirectly buffed from TT.

Having Jester increases the chance that to make town mislynch and makes them have to care about their votes

Executioner is the better addition to TT more than Jester since having Exe will make people trust sheriffs/investigators/spies less which helps Mafia in the early game

[Brilliand]

Executioner is the better addition to TT more than Jester since having Exe will make people trust sheriffs/investigators/spies less which helps Mafia in the early game

Executioner was in TT at the start, but was removed for some reason (in favor of another Town slot).

Unfortunately I have no idea where the discussion was held to make that decision.

However, I already explained (in my previous post) why the Executioner's presence would be actively harmful to the TT during the TT countdown.

[MysticMismagius]

I believe that discussion was in this thread

[OreoNyan]

I would like to see witch replaced by NE... *could* be a witch, but could also be another NE. I think witch is really only useful to maf if the town doesn’t know the witch is there. If witch finds maf N1, they can lay low and then SURPRISE! Come for vigi once he comes out. Or maf can CLAIM witched to let the actual NE know who they are, and let a Jester know who TT is so he haunts an actual townie.

As it is, I have won as witch ONCE in TT, and I have seen ONE other person win as witch. On the other hand, I more often see maf (or TT jailor) DELIBERATELY go for the witch to “prove” themselves, and I’ve had maf basically tell me to stop helping and just DC as witch. MAF IN TT HATES THE WITCH in most cases. EVERYONE wants the witch dead. And the fun thing about NE in other modes is finding maf and strategizing together. That’s just not (usually) possible when town knows for a fact that there’s a witch.

[dolphina]

/support /support /support /support

yes. just yes.

[Soulshade55r]

Imagine if witch could be mafia for this gamemode that would be epic but never happen

[OreCreeper]

Coven TT has 2 RCs, so why shouldn't mafia TT have 2 RMs? The reason why coven has an overall higher WR than mafia in TT is because the coven knows their entire team right off the bat so its easier to coordinate, while in mafia TT, the witch and mafia don't know who each other are, making coordination borderline impossible.

[James2]

I know I have seen people suggest this elsewhere, but I am going to create a discussion for it. Please remove witch from TT! As the game mode is currently, witch, being an evil with killing capabilities provided that a TK is alive, needs to be killed before the Traitor countdown timer starts. However, in most cases, witch is unable to kill on a regular basis (either because they can’t find TK or they are deliberately being kept alive and blocked by jailor). The witch presence makes it so that town can start looking for TT before the timer begins without having to worry about being killed by evils. As a result, most people quit as witch when only TT is left to give evils a chance to win, as they are unable to win themselves at this point. In other words, witch being in TT basically encourages throwing, which is not healthy for the game environment!

It can’t really win in TT anyway. If you think about it, the only way for witch to win in TT is via mafia winning the regular way (by just killing all town members and tricking town with fake claims). However, a mafia win without relying on TT timer is almost nonexistent in TT mode (due to the large number of townies to begin with, and also because winning via TT timer is easier so most mafia will find ways to deliberately get themselves killed such as by making really bad claims). And not only does mafia have to win the regular way, but witch has to survive too (which is hard enough to do in regular modes). As a result, most people who get witch in TT consider the game to be a guaranteed loss.

Instead of witch, I think that jester would be a better neutral to include in TT. Jester would have lodes of fun in TT. In a mode where the slightest wrong thing said is guaranteed to get you lynched, the jester should have no problem getting the win most times. It would also be cool in TT because it would add to the already high amount of paranoia; potentially lynching the jester could mean losing retributionist or another confirmed town member, thus creating a penalty for randomly lynching for TT. Jester also wouldn’t need to be killed in order for the TT timer to start, thus creating the possibility that town will waste a much-needed day on killing the jester.

At any rate, whether jester is included or not, WITCH NEEDS TO GO!!! Witch is virtually impossible to win in TT and encourages throwing in order to help mafia win. Not only does it not contribute very many positive things to the game mode (as a witched vigilante shooting a townie often helps town in TT), it hurts the mafia’s chance of winning significantly. PLEASE REMOVE WITCH FROM TT!!!

The possibility of gamethrowing and people being mad about losing are not valid reasons for changing game mechanics. And jester should not be allowed in TT mode, for the reasons that others have explained.

That said, the town's ability to delay tt time indefinitely by keeping witch alive is contrary to the principle of the game mode (unlike the case where they keep mafia alive, the witch has no incentive to get themselves killed). Witch should either be replaced with an RM or should cease being a barrier to the start of the countdown. Of course, either of these would buff the mafia, and would need to be balanced with a corresponding town buff or mafia nerf.

[Brilliand]

The possibility of gamethrowing and people being mad about losing are not valid reasons for changing game mechanics.

The possibility of gamethrowing is a serious problem for ToS, and sometimes it's addressed by changing game mechanics. That has worked out pretty well so far.

One role not being able to win at all is the best reason for changing game mechanics, and that's actually relevant to this thread.

[James2]

The possibility of gamethrowing and people being mad about losing are not valid reasons for changing game mechanics.

The possibility of gamethrowing is a serious problem for ToS, and sometimes it's addressed by changing game mechanics. That has worked out pretty well so far.

Legitimate gameplay should never be impeded on account of the possibility that someone might gamethrow. The devs have made many decisions that were unwise, but I can't think of any case where they changed game mechanics for this bad reason.

One role not being able to win at all is the best reason for changing game mechanics, and that's actually relevant to this thread.

I've won as witch in tt mode. Simply being more likely to lose than win isn't a valid reason for removing a role.

[Brilliand]

Legitimate gameplay should never be impeded on account of the possibility that someone might gamethrow. The devs have made many decisions that were unwise, but I can't think of any case where they changed game mechanics for this bad reason.

iirc, the Vigilante's guilt suicide is an example of this.

Seems to me that insisting that this reason is always bad and should not be acknowledged at all is rather unreasonable.

[James2]

Legitimate gameplay should never be impeded on account of the possibility that someone might gamethrow. The devs have made many decisions that were unwise, but I can't think of any case where they changed game mechanics for this bad reason.

iirc, the Vigilante's guilt suicide is an example of this.

Seems to me that insisting that this reason is [i]always[.i] bad and should not be acknowledged at all is rather unreasonable.

My understanding is that Vig always suicided and that that was simply a nerf. If it was designed to "punish" a gamethrower (who we assume would want to live?), then it was a dumb call, though the outcome happened to be okay.

The reason why gamethrowing is bad is that it's a major external influence on the game. Changing game mechanics to account for throwers is bad for the same reason, it lets them affect the game's balance. It would defeat the whole purpose of opposing gamethrowing in the first place.

[Brilliand]

The reason why gamethrowing is bad is that it's a major external influence on the game. Changing game mechanics to account for throwers is bad for the same reason, it lets them affect the game's balance. It would defeat the whole purpose of opposing gamethrowing in the first place.

Assuming we expect to be able to eliminate gamethrowing entirely.

Sometimes a half-measure that can't be perfect gets better results than trying for perfection and failing to attain it.

You're not seriously wrong here, but I'm objecting to your black-and-white thinking.

[James2]

The reason why gamethrowing is bad is that it's a major external influence on the game. Changing game mechanics to account for throwers is bad for the same reason, it lets them affect the game's balance. It would defeat the whole purpose of opposing gamethrowing in the first place.

Assuming we expect to be able to eliminate gamethrowing entirely.

Sometimes a half-measure that can't be perfect gets better results than trying for perfection and failing to attain it.

You're not seriously wrong here, but I'm objecting to your black-and-white thinking.

We can't eliminate it, though they could probably do a better job removing throwers than they do.

If a person's goal is to throw, they'll find a way to do so regardless of what mechanical obstacles are in place. Such obstacles will only really hinder people with legitimate goals. Humans are smarter than machines, so without putting a human moderator in every game, there's no way to stop determined throwers before the fact.

[Brilliand]

If a person's goal is to throw, they'll find a way to do so regardless of what mechanical obstacles are in place. Such obstacles will only really hinder people with legitimate goals. Humans are smarter than machines, so without putting a human moderator in every game, there's no way to stop determined throwers before the fact.

Considering the audience this game attracts, I'm not sure "determined throwers" are the primary concern (though they certainly do show up sometimes).

[James2]

If a person's goal is to throw, they'll find a way to do so regardless of what mechanical obstacles are in place. Such obstacles will only really hinder people with legitimate goals. Humans are smarter than machines, so without putting a human moderator in every game, there's no way to stop determined throwers before the fact.

Considering the audience this game attracts, I'm not sure "determined throwers" are the primary concern (though they certainly do show up sometimes).

If the concern is "casual" throwers, I really object on principle to presuming that all players are clueless idiots, which is what mechanical attempts to stop throwing do.