MysticMismagius wrote:There's an extra slot there, buddy
Also Traitor takes up a town slot, it's not a role in and of itself
ALSO also, try to avoid writing up lists that have currently non-existent elements in them
I only ever suggested the idea of a second Traitor in the context of a multiball role list, so that Mafia and Coven each have a Traitor by their side. If we're not doing multiball, then having two Traitors means that you can reach an effective team of six Mafia/Coven members with these role lists, which is way too many to have on a single evil team. Making it based on RNG is even worse because then you can't balance around it. Additionally, the RNG element means Mafia/Coven can get saved or screwed by basically a coin flip: If they happen to get two Traitors they've pretty much won, and if they don't then it can make the difference if they lose.Achilles wrote:Making some role list tweaks that should be a step in the right direction. Keep in mind that nothing is final and I am reading your feedback to make incremental improvements. Additionally since this patch includes a lot of WebGL/HTML5 stuff it is likely to be on PTR for a bit for heavy testing.
Reading this thread did give me an idea though. There COULD be an argument for having a chance for more than 1 Traitor. Such as 1-2 Traitors with a 50% chance of having a second Traitor. Could add an extra spin on the game mode if you aren't sure if there is a second Traitor.
Achilles wrote:New Classic Town Traitor List:
Spoiler:
Achilles wrote:Coven Town Traitor Role List:
Spoiler:
MysticMismagius wrote:I only ever suggested the idea of a second Traitor in the context of a multiball role list, so that Mafia and Coven each have a Traitor by their side. If we're not doing multiball, then having two Traitors means that you can reach an effective team of six Mafia/Coven members with these role lists, which is way too many to have on a single evil team. Making it based on RNG is even worse because then you can't balance around it. Additionally, the RNG element means Mafia/Coven can get saved or screwed by basically a coin flip: If they happen to get two Traitors they've pretty much won, and if they don't then it can make the difference if they lose.Achilles wrote:Making some role list tweaks that should be a step in the right direction. Keep in mind that nothing is final and I am reading your feedback to make incremental improvements. Additionally since this patch includes a lot of WebGL/HTML5 stuff it is likely to be on PTR for a bit for heavy testing.
Reading this thread did give me an idea though. There COULD be an argument for having a chance for more than 1 Traitor. Such as 1-2 Traitors with a 50% chance of having a second Traitor. Could add an extra spin on the game mode if you aren't sure if there is a second Traitor.Achilles wrote:New Classic Town Traitor List:
Spoiler:Achilles wrote:Coven Town Traitor Role List:
Spoiler:
T1NO wrote:The new coven TT role list is a step in the right direction, but it still seems far too town sided. When there are threads discussing game wide rebalance to counter 'jailor meta', it concerns me that new chaos game modes are being created with roles lists that are still jailor centric. The new role list is a 10 town v 4 coven + 1 traitor game with very powerful town such as mayor with easily provable town roles while coven still lacks early game killing power. I think a decently played town will still walk over a well played coven, especially when 5 town are still set roles like sheriff tracker etc.
I would like to suggest the following role list
Spoiler: I would love some comments and feedback. I wrestled a lot with determining the coven composition as well as what in the world to put as the 15th role.
T1NO wrote:The new coven TT role list is a step in the right direction, but it still seems far too town sided. When there are threads discussing game wide rebalance to counter 'jailor meta', it concerns me that new chaos game modes are being created with roles lists that are still jailor centric. The new role list is a 10 town v 4 coven + 1 traitor game with very powerful town such as mayor with easily provable town roles while coven still lacks early game killing power. I think a decently played town will still walk over a well played coven, especially when 5 town are still set roles like sheriff tracker etc.
I would like to suggest the following role list
1. Psychic - Psychic is a fun role that encourages town activity and thought. It's a good TI role and a player who town can sort of look to and center around without being able to do all the work by itself. Plus a traitor psychic would be very entertaining.
2. Vigilante - What fun is there having a Coven Leader game without a vigilante discouraging town from role calling early? Plus town always needs nighttime killing power. (may possibly want to exclude roles like Vigi or even Vigi/BG from being traitor)
3. Sheriff - Sheriff is a nice to have guaranteed TI, especially since it gives a possible HM something to do
4. Lookout - having one more set TI role seems important, I've chosen LO here as I find its ability to find town as useful and as rewarding as its ability to catch evils
5. TP - open to having this be a set TP, either trapper or Crus
6. TP - need to have a random TP as well for the claim space
7. TI
8. TI
9. TS
10. TS - I struggled with having a 2nd TS or making this slot RT
11. Coven Leader
12. Medusa - Early game killing power for coven, opens up claim space, encourages baiting visitors
13. HM/PM/RC - a guaranteed HM or PM seems like it might be desirable, perhaps even guarantee a HM instead of the medusa
14. RC - there should always be some mystery as to what some of the coven roles are
15. Plaguebearer - I was looking so a role that wouldn't have early game killing power but that cannot decide to act as a 6th vote for the other evils. GA or Exe here could give the evils a block of 6 votes which would be problematic in my opinion
or
15. RT - simply make this mode a 10 town v 4 coven + traitor mode, but then town may have to be nerfed from the above list
I would love some comments and feedback. I wrestled a lot with determining the coven composition as well as what in the world to put as the 15th role.
T1NO wrote:When I say confirmed or easily provable I mean it in terms of being that role. While there is still some traitor paranoia, that doesn't change the lack of claimspace that role list would provide to the coven. It still seems trivial in my opinion for the jailor (who may not even be able to be killed N1 or N2 depending on what the coven are) to sus out the coven and start executing by N3.
orangeandblack5 wrote:I think my posts have been ones I stand by same here with mine
Even without Town Leader running my/Mystic's most recent suggestions with Jailor (or Mayor I guess) guaranteed seems like it would be best in theory, would be very interested to see if people like it in practice or if we missed something somewhere hehe, thank you =)
Beyond the massive lack of claimspace I think the list is not my biggest worry with the mode but overall it's been fun so I don't think we're too too far off from something really workable
Also p sure Mystic meant to say swap Witch for Mafioso not RM? Maybe not but rn Jailor/Escort can just screw the Mafia completely He already added Mafioso, so no I did mean RM. New list looks like this:
Spoiler:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah
I know I've been busy with the Mafia Championships but how did I miss that lmao
Yeah I'd trade Sheriff for TI, Doctor for TP, Lookout for RT, ONE of Mayor or Jailor for RT. and then Witch for RM - which I believe is in total what you also suggest?
Not sure about orangeandblack5, but I don't play Ranked.Achilles wrote:That seems like a massive amount of randoms. Perhaps you are trying to design this from a ranked perspective and that may not be what the general community wants (non-ranked players) for a game mode such as this.orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah
I know I've been busy with the Mafia Championships but how did I miss that lmao
Yeah I'd trade Sheriff for TI, Doctor for TP, Lookout for RT, ONE of Mayor or Jailor for RT. and then Witch for RM - which I believe is in total what you also suggest?
Achilles wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah
I know I've been busy with the Mafia Championships but how did I miss that lmao
Yeah I'd trade Sheriff for TI, Doctor for TP, Lookout for RT, ONE of Mayor or Jailor for RT. and then Witch for RM - which I believe is in total what you also suggest?
That seems like a massive amount of randoms. Perhaps you are trying to design this from a ranked perspective and that may not be what the general community wants (non-ranked players) for a game mode such as this.
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