CrimsonKatana wrote:Idk what you mean by afford to lose a townie, people with that mindset is what I call a bad player. The only way that lynch would ever be good is if it's somehow a 2 for x where x>0... Anyways, if town has majority I think the best lynch is always the NK before the Mafia cause you're limiting the evils to 1 kill per night and making it to where their chance of gaining majority or tying it up is way lower and nearly impossible if you know what you're doing.
CrimsonKatana wrote:The only way I would lynch a doc for not being on Jailor is if Jailor says "TP on me or die! OR DIE!!!!" Because if you're not letting them know what'll happen it could be a bad townie not on you thinking there won't be a consequence.
kyuss420 wrote:Town: Vote 7 for role, he hasnt claimed
7: Why me?
Any Townie claim:This is random!
Town: vote 7, he claims doc but his will says he went randomly on a rando for 3 nights
7: You have no proof!!
CrimsonKatana wrote:Just tell them to be on Jailor or they'll die... There's a lot of players who sometimes purposely don't go on Jailor to say sCrEw ThE mEtA
MysticMismagius wrote:It’s almost always in Town’s better interest to kill some form of evil than to do nothing (which in my experience they often do without a lead). Obviously if there are leads on the Maf/Coven then do that first. But if there are no better leads, and you don’t desperately need to hang a Mafia member specifically, right exactly now, then bringing up the death note isn’t that bad.
Edit: even if you’re adamant about not hanging the NK too early, sometimes putting the cards on the table can be useful in getting said NK to do what you want. “Hey we all know you’re SK, kill who we tell you to when we tell you to or you get hanged” is a viable strategy. But that won’t happen if you keep quiet about it and let everyone miss the death note.
kyuss420 wrote:Nk is going to do whatever the hell they want anyway. Seems like more reason to kill them, to take their wild card antics out of play. I've been pushed up as NK many times and been innoed, by telling town simple logic - vote me off, and tomorrow you're in a 3v3 situation (ofc Im gonna backstab as soon as I can) but, what people fail to see, is how many townies are going to die that night. Last time I got hung as NK, (in a ranked match) I pointed out that vigi was dying of guilt and they would lose another townie to maf that night, giving town a 3v3 majority the next day, also pointed 2 TP were dead so maf were hitting jailor that night.. (I even told jailor who the GF was... guess who? the guy screaming about the death note pointing me out ofc) but jailor exed a TS claim instead....for whatever reason...got kiled by maf, vigi died and they ended up 3 maf vs 2 town. (If jailor exed the GF that I outed and town left me alive to kill the RM, there would have been 3 town vs 1 maf and 1 NK... a winnable situation) This is a desperate situation for town. I'll go over this in a bit.
Problem is people dont know how to do the math to win as SK. You have to put town into a position where if they lynch you, they lose majority the following day. You have to make town understand that (because theyre noobs and dont know how to NK without doing random crap), while picking off the mafia so that they don't gain the majority to lynch you.
Lynching NK because they are a confirmed evil, when the only way they can win is to kill mafia, is playing into mafias strategy, basically handing mafia the win, But this is only the case if you're desperate to kill Mafia, specifically, right exactly now. Obviously if you're desperate to kill the Mafia, then kill the Mafia. Duh. But situations where you need to kill a member of the mafia only, right now or you will lose while the NK is still alive are not even that common, let alone a constant. Unless you are arguing that the Mafia will only reveal the NK in their death note when getting them lynched the next day will put them in majority, which I can assure you is not true (they tend to out them as soon as they find them), claims about the desperate edge cases don't exactly prove OP's point. Remember, they argued that pointing out the death note is never a good idea, to the point where they will instantly try to hang you if you ever do it, not something that is only a bad idea if and when you become desperate to kill the Mafia. Neither of you have provided any reason not to point out the NK from the death note outside of desperation cases like this (or times where you have leads on the Mafia, but again, duh).
You're better off doing nothing and letting NK kill the maf for you, as mafias no1 priority to win, at that point is lynching the NK. You literally defeated this point two paragraphs ago by saying that the NK will probably do whatever they want. Either they will do whatever and you should kill them to prevent them from making things worse, or they will listen to you and you should out them so you can make them work for you. But you gotta pick one. Don't switch around to whichever one is more convenient to you at the time. But townies realize they've lost at that point, and lynch the NK to end the game faster, so they can move on to the next one.
MysticMismagius wrote:This argument is circular. Town shouldn't point out the death note because the person outing the death note isn't Town.
But why shouldn't Town do it in the first place? And when (not if) your overzealousness of hanging someone whose only crime was paying attention ends with you mislynching a townie, then what? Why is that their fault for outing the NK and not your fault for being trigger happy?
Question for you: Would pointing out the will of someone who found an evil, that the rest of Town seems to have missed, be just as bad as pointing out the death note? If not, what's the difference?Algus wrote:I answered you. Town shouldn't do it because town shouldn't be screaming "I'M MAFIA".
This is what I mean when I say that the members of town that (rarely) do do this are more of a detriment to the rest of town. This is begging the question: you haven't proven that people who do this are scum or are screaming "I AM MAFIA", or that it is rare that a non-mafia will point it out.
When you're acting like scum you're going to get yourself lynched, and to be perfectly clear, it's going to be your own fault.
Everyones paying attention, you aren't getting points for stating something we all saw. You'd be surprised how many people miss these seemingly "obvious" things. People often don't read the wills and death notes even though valuable information can be on them. It's not a crime to point it out in case this happens. We're all looking for scum, and the person that feels the need to point out the obvious tends to be the scum, because they tend to have literally nothing of merit to add.
A TI would be giving out known information, an escort would be naming their RB, and the list goes on. Not every townie has information to give. TI might not have found anything useful. The person you roleblocked may already claim they've been roleblocked before you said anything. Medium may not have gotten anything but a "hi" from the dead. TP sure as hell has no information from the night, same for Ret and Mayor. Sometimes the best you can do is point out something that the rest of Town seems to have missed. This is still valuable even if it's not information you got yourself. Edit: If you are giving other information, and pointing out the "obvious" on top of that, there shouldn't be any problem with that. What the mafia is going to do is point out that death note, because it furthers their goal and it allows them to talk without really saying anything. I would argue that "hey guys you missed this and it might be important" isn't "talking without really saying anything", but I digress.
Any town member who is contributing to a mislynch, Hanging NK isn't a mislynch, and if you instahang someone who points out the death note then they are only marginally "contributing" to their own mislynch who is furthering the mafia's objective, and who is not adding anything of merit to the day to day conversation is strictly bad. Any town member doing that, is a fucking garbage teammate to have.
MysticMismagius wrote:Question for you: Would pointing out the will of someone who found an evil, that the rest of Town seems to have missed, be just as bad as pointing out the death note? If not, what's the difference?Algus wrote:I answered you. Town shouldn't do it because town shouldn't be screaming "I'M MAFIA".
This is what I mean when I say that the members of town that (rarely) do do this are more of a detriment to the rest of town. This is begging the question: you haven't proven that people who do this are scum or are screaming "I AM MAFIA", or that it is rare that a non-mafia will point it out.
When you're acting like scum you're going to get yourself lynched, and to be perfectly clear, it's going to be your own fault.
Everyones paying attention, you aren't getting points for stating something we all saw. You'd be surprised how many people miss these seemingly "obvious" things. People often don't read the wills and death notes even though valuable information can be on them. It's not a crime to point it out in case this happens. We're all looking for scum, and the person that feels the need to point out the obvious tends to be the scum, because they tend to have literally nothing of merit to add.
A TI would be giving out known information, an escort would be naming their RB, and the list goes on. Not every townie has information to give. TI might not have found anything useful. The person you roleblocked may already claim they've been roleblocked before you said anything. Medium may not have gotten anything but a "hi" from the dead. TP sure as hell has no information from the night, same for Ret and Mayor. Sometimes the best you can do is point out something that the rest of Town seems to have missed. This is still valuable even if it's not information you got yourself. What the mafia is going to do is point out that death note, because it furthers their goal and it allows them to talk without really saying anything. I would argue that "hey guys you missed this and it might be important" isn't "talking without really saying anything", but I digress.
Any town member who is contributing to a mislynch, Hanging NK isn't a mislynch, and if you instahang someone who points out the death note then they are only marginally "contributing" to their own mislynch who is furthering the mafia's objective, and who is not adding anything of merit to the day to day conversation is strictly bad. Any town member doing that, is a fucking garbage teammate to have.
Algus wrote:Read very carefully:
Townies are going to mislynch or contribute to it once in awhile. Townies are occasionally going to have literally nothing valuable to say. Townies are occasionally going to actively contribute to the mafia's goal. No townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, and BECAUSE no townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, no one who does all 3 at once is a townie. I like how you barely addressed anything I said here, and are just restating your argument over and over again. Pointing out the death note is not necessarily contributing to a mislynch under your definition, and can be valuable. The only one of the three things you listed that it without a doubt does is the last one, and in a way that also contributes actively to Town's goal because they want the NKs dead too.
And because I feel like I see the next stupid question coming, No, but the insults don't help, especially since this would have been a good question to ask when I say 'contribute to a mislynch, read that as 'I'm acting like scum' or 'I'm doing something that makes me LOOK like scum'. Again, pointing out the death note is not necessarily acting like scum or making yourself look like scum, and I've explained in several ways why Townies might have a good reason to do it.
A confirmed townie can do whatever the fuck they want, and it's far less suspicious to be pointing out a confirmed town's will than a mafia's deathnote, to answer that question. I never said the will was from a townie, but fair enough.
MysticMismagius wrote:Algus wrote:Read very carefully:
Townies are going to mislynch or contribute to it once in awhile. Townies are occasionally going to have literally nothing valuable to say. Townies are occasionally going to actively contribute to the mafia's goal. No townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, and BECAUSE no townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, no one who does all 3 at once is a townie. I like how you barely addressed anything I said here, and are just restating your argument over and over again. Pointing out the death note is not necessarily contributing to a mislynch under your definition, and can be valuable. The only one of the three things you listed that it without a doubt does is the last one, and in a way that also contributes actively to Town's goal because they want the NKs dead too.
And because I feel like I see the next stupid question coming, No, but the insults don't help, especially since this would have been a good question to ask when I say 'contribute to a mislynch, read that as 'I'm acting like scum' or 'I'm doing something that makes me LOOK like scum'. Again, pointing out the death note is not necessarily acting like scum or making yourself look like scum, and I've explained in several ways why Townies might have a good reason to do it.
A confirmed townie can do whatever the fuck they want, and it's far less suspicious to be pointing out a confirmed town's will than a mafia's deathnote, to answer that question. I never said the will was from a townie, but fair enough.
MysticMismagius wrote:
Lynching NK because they are a confirmed evil, when the only way they can win is to kill mafia, is playing into mafias strategy, basically handing mafia the win, But this is only the case if you're desperate to kill Mafia, specifically, right exactly now. Obviously if you're desperate to kill the Mafia, then kill the Mafia. Duh. But situations where you need to kill a member of the mafia only, right now or you will lose while the NK is still alive are not even that common, let alone a constant. Unless you are arguing that the Mafia will only reveal the NK in their death note when getting them lynched the next day will put them in majority, which I can assure you is not true (they tend to out them as soon as they find them), claims about the desperate edge cases don't exactly prove OP's point. Remember, they argued that pointing out the death note is never a good idea, to the point where they will instantly try to hang you if you ever do it, not something that is only a bad idea if and when you become desperate to kill the Mafia. Neither of you have provided any reason not to point out the NK from the death note outside of desperation cases like this (or times where you have leads on the Mafia, but again, duh).
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