When you literally MUST be evil

[Algus]

let's go through some scenarios, forums

Green = Actual town member
Red = Mafia

All roles are claims.

Jailor: why didn't you revive the medium?
Ret: i was RB'd
Spy: I bugged him, he was RB'd. [insert my spy will showing mafia visiting him]

pause

alright well, now I NEED one of you two to die because it gives me twice as much information. If I were going to inno vote this ret claim before, now that this person defends you It's worth more to me if I just guilty you. If you're ret, it confirms a consort and a spy. If you aren't it confirms the spy is also bad.

Literally any role:The mafia death note said...

pause

you're more confirmed evil than the revealed mayor is confirmed town for saying this, and i'm actually just going to try to hang you first. If you're a jester this is the freest fucking win you've ever had.

Literally any town:That's a maf claim...

pause

you're mafia, because only they say that. if you're town then you were a disguiser, even if you weren't.

I refuse to believe an upstanding citizen in my great town would say dumb shit like this.


alright now u guys try

[CrimsonKatana]

Well I wouldn't kill someone for just pointing out the Mafia death note, part of being a good player is knowing to adapt to bad players as well as players that don't follow the meta and still being able to win. The only way I would kill them if there was more evidence. On the first scenario keep the two mafs alive unless there's more info but keep doing your process of elimination until you eventually figure out there's no room for them.

[Algus]

every scenario is situational, scenario 1 is the ret claim not immediately reviving the dead townie, and failing to do it at a point in the game where I can afford to lose them

the scenarios are made up, person x defends person y; obviously neither of these players can be confirmed town or this doesn't apply

if you're pointing out a mafia deathnote you better be confirmed town or i'm gonna have to kill you.


if you're town and you're pointing out a mafia deathnote or pushing it then you're actually such a fucking detriment to the town that you're better off dead

town should not be trying to lynch an NK before at least one member of the mafia is dead

[CrimsonKatana]

Idk what you mean by afford to lose a townie, people with that mindset is what I call a bad player. The only way that lynch would ever be good is if it's somehow a 2 for x where x>0... Anyways, if town has majority I think the best lynch is always the NK before the Mafia cause you're limiting the evils to 1 kill per night and making it to where their chance of gaining majority or tying it up is way lower and nearly impossible if you know what you're doing.

[kyuss420]

Idk what you mean by afford to lose a townie, people with that mindset is what I call a bad player. The only way that lynch would ever be good is if it's somehow a 2 for x where x>0... Anyways, if town has majority I think the best lynch is always the NK before the Mafia cause you're limiting the evils to 1 kill per night and making it to where their chance of gaining majority or tying it up is way lower and nearly impossible if you know what you're doing.

It makes perfect sense, most times you are going to 1v1 a counter claim with a lynch. If lynching a ret to confirm them as ret, outs 2 evils, or confirms 2 town, then its a good lynch regardless, especially if theres a jailor or vigi to clean up the leftovers.

100% agree that anyone pushing on a maf death note is 95% of the time mafia. What you have to think about here, is that it may not even be an NK that mafia are pushing on, and playing along with mafias startegy, as town, is just a plain dumb move (tantamount to a gamethrow IMO). If theres no dead mafia, the NKs only chance is to start targeting mafia, at that point to keep the votes even, so town lose majority if the NK is lynched, and maf dont have majority to vote the NK.

[kyuss420]

Town: Vote 7 for role, he hasnt claimed
7: Why me?
Any Townie claim:This is random!


Town: vote 7, he claims doc but his will says he went randomly on a rando for 3 nights
7: You have no proof!!

[CrimsonKatana]

The only way I would lynch a doc for not being on Jailor is if Jailor says "TP on me or die! OR DIE!!!!" Because if you're not letting them know what'll happen it could be a bad townie not on you thinking there won't be a consequence.

[kyuss420]

The only way I would lynch a doc for not being on Jailor is if Jailor says "TP on me or die! OR DIE!!!!" Because if you're not letting them know what'll happen it could be a bad townie not on you thinking there won't be a consequence.

would lynch for being on possible maf tho. Who does that??? Id prefer to stay home than randomly heal

[CrimsonKatana]

Just tell them to be on Jailor or they'll die... There's a lot of players who sometimes purposely don't go on Jailor to say sCrEw ThE mEtA

[fwogcarf]

Town: Vote 7 for role, he hasnt claimed
7: Why me?
Any Townie claim:This is random!


Town: vote 7, he claims doc but his will says he went randomly on a rando for 3 nights
7: You have no proof!!

why me = fry me

little trick i learned from good ol mafia.gg

[kyuss420]

Just tell them to be on Jailor or they'll die... There's a lot of players who sometimes purposely don't go on Jailor to say sCrEw ThE mEtA

Its not about not liking meta... plenty of people claim and confirm themselves day 2, and could use a doc, even if you dont want to be on the jailor.

[MysticMismagius]

I too disagree with bringing up the death note being an insta-hang.

Mafia (and Coven) have very good reason to tell the truth about who is immune in their death notes, for several reasons.
A) The NK is dangerous to everyone, and the Mafia wants to get rid of them as much as anyone else, especially in AA games where there can be multiple NKs (Obligatory "AA is not Ranked"). Since most evils won't know to fakeclaim TI and push their enemies that way (or can't, because they already claimed something else), the death note is the only safe and reliable way they can reveal their findings.
B) If they lie about who's immune and mislynch a Townie, the logical follow-up is that Town won't believe them again. This will bite them in the ass when they try to reveal the actual NK.
C) Orchestrating a lie by not attacking and then naming someone as immune with the next night's death note is a bad idea because that wastes a night that they could have spent just shooting the guy they mislynched instead. There's no actual benefit to this.

Additionally, people are really inattentive. Knowing that the Mafia/Coven is most likely telling the truth when they say who's immune, and knowing that, like with wills, there's a decent chance people won't read it, it's a good idea to at least bring it to people's attention unless there's already a lead on Mafia/Coven.

[Algus]

i think you misunderstand the point

I operate under the asumption that the deathnote is accurate, i would never hang the nk before at least 1 but preferably 2 of the mafia are dead as town

town in general shouldn't be hanging the nk prior to this (there is an exception if the nk is arso or is found before any useful town have died)

if you're pushing nk based off of mafia information-

either you're mafia or you're just fucking bad. it is in mafia's best interest to kill the nk, it is not *always* in towns best interest to hang the nk.

keep in mind, it's fine if jailor executes the nk, assuming it doesn't place town into a no win situation by proxy; town has better things to do during the day though, even when they don't seem to know what that is.

[MysticMismagius]

It’s almost always in Town’s better interest to kill some form of evil than to do nothing (which in my experience they often do without a lead). Obviously if there are leads on the Maf/Coven then do that first. But if there are no better leads, and you don’t desperately need to hang a Mafia member specifically, right exactly now, then bringing up the death note isn’t that bad.

Edit: even if you’re adamant about not hanging the NK too early, sometimes putting the cards on the table can be useful in getting said NK to do what you want. “Hey we all know you’re SK, kill who we tell you to when we tell you to or you get hanged” is a viable strategy. But that won’t happen if you keep quiet about it and let everyone miss the death note.

[kyuss420]

It’s almost always in Town’s better interest to kill some form of evil than to do nothing (which in my experience they often do without a lead). Obviously if there are leads on the Maf/Coven then do that first. But if there are no better leads, and you don’t desperately need to hang a Mafia member specifically, right exactly now, then bringing up the death note isn’t that bad.

Edit: even if you’re adamant about not hanging the NK too early, sometimes putting the cards on the table can be useful in getting said NK to do what you want. “Hey we all know you’re SK, kill who we tell you to when we tell you to or you get hanged” is a viable strategy. But that won’t happen if you keep quiet about it and let everyone miss the death note.

Nk is going to do whatever the hell they want anyway. Ive been pushed up as NK many times and been innoed, by telling town simple logic - vote me off, and tomoro youre in a 3v3 situation (ofc Im gonna backstab as soon as I can) but, what people fail to see, is how many townies are going to die that night. Last time I got hung as NK, (in a ranked match) I pointed out that vigi was dieing of guilt and they would lose another townie to maf that night, giving town a 3v3 majority the next day, also pointed 2 TP were dead so maf were hitting jailor that night.. (I even told jailor who the GF was... guess who? the guy screaming about the death note pointing me out ofc) but jailor exed a TS claim instead....for whatever reason...got kiled by maf, vigi died and they ended up 3 maf vs 2 town. (If jailor exed the GF that I outed and town left me alive to kill the RM, there would have been 3 town vs 1 maf and 1 NK... a winnable situation)

Problem is people dont know how to do the math to win as SK. You have to put town into a position where if they lynch you, they lose majority the following day. You have to make town understand that (because theyre noobs and dont know how to NK without doing random crap), while picking off the mafia so that they dont gain the majority to lynch you.

Lynching NK because they are a confirmed evil, when the only way they can win is to kill mafia, is playing into mafias strategy, basically handing mafia the win, youre better off doing nothing and letting NK kill the maf for you, as mafias no1 priority to win, at that point is lynching the NK. But townies realise theyve lost at that point, and lynch the NK to end the game faster, so they can move on to the next one.

[MysticMismagius]

Nk is going to do whatever the hell they want anyway. Seems like more reason to kill them, to take their wild card antics out of play. I've been pushed up as NK many times and been innoed, by telling town simple logic - vote me off, and tomorrow you're in a 3v3 situation (ofc Im gonna backstab as soon as I can) but, what people fail to see, is how many townies are going to die that night. Last time I got hung as NK, (in a ranked match) I pointed out that vigi was dying of guilt and they would lose another townie to maf that night, giving town a 3v3 majority the next day, also pointed 2 TP were dead so maf were hitting jailor that night.. (I even told jailor who the GF was... guess who? the guy screaming about the death note pointing me out ofc) but jailor exed a TS claim instead....for whatever reason...got kiled by maf, vigi died and they ended up 3 maf vs 2 town. (If jailor exed the GF that I outed and town left me alive to kill the RM, there would have been 3 town vs 1 maf and 1 NK... a winnable situation) This is a desperate situation for town. I'll go over this in a bit.

Problem is people dont know how to do the math to win as SK. You have to put town into a position where if they lynch you, they lose majority the following day. You have to make town understand that (because theyre noobs and dont know how to NK without doing random crap), while picking off the mafia so that they don't gain the majority to lynch you.

Lynching NK because they are a confirmed evil, when the only way they can win is to kill mafia, is playing into mafias strategy, basically handing mafia the win, But this is only the case if you're desperate to kill Mafia, specifically, right exactly now. Obviously if you're desperate to kill the Mafia, then kill the Mafia. Duh. But situations where you need to kill a member of the mafia only, right now or you will lose while the NK is still alive are not even that common, let alone a constant. Unless you are arguing that the Mafia will only reveal the NK in their death note when getting them lynched the next day will put them in majority, which I can assure you is not true (they tend to out them as soon as they find them), claims about the desperate edge cases don't exactly prove OP's point. Remember, they argued that pointing out the death note is never a good idea, to the point where they will instantly try to hang you if you ever do it, not something that is only a bad idea if and when you become desperate to kill the Mafia. Neither of you have provided any reason not to point out the NK from the death note outside of desperation cases like this (or times where you have leads on the Mafia, but again, duh).

You're better off doing nothing and letting NK kill the maf for you, as mafias no1 priority to win, at that point is lynching the NK. You literally defeated this point two paragraphs ago by saying that the NK will probably do whatever they want. Either they will do whatever and you should kill them to prevent them from making things worse, or they will listen to you and you should out them so you can make them work for you. But you gotta pick one. Don't switch around to whichever one is more convenient to you at the time. But townies realize they've lost at that point, and lynch the NK to end the game faster, so they can move on to the next one.

[Algus]

you're both missing the point now

if you're pointing out the mafia death note, regardless of what you think you're doing, what you're actually doing is screaming "I'M MAFIA". As town, I really need the mafia to die first. The jailor can exe the nk that's fine, but I NEED the person that pointed the death note out to hang, because when he hangs, and when he's mafia, it's going to tell me who the rest are.

This is not rocket science. As soon as the first mafia get's pushed to the stand the game is solved. The mafia outs the nk, that's great. What i'm actually looking for is to see who tries to push it first, because that person is the most likely to be mafia, and by proxy, is going to help me solve the game.

I don't give a shit about the NK, it's not that I want the NK to live. It's that I don't NEED the NK to die first.

and what you're also missing is that this is not every single game. It's not always relevant, there are plenty of games where the first mafia hangs long before they even find the nk. *when* this is the case, this becomes how I view the game.

[MysticMismagius]

This argument is circular. Town shouldn't point out the death note because the person outing the death note isn't Town.

But why shouldn't Town do it in the first place? And when (not if) your overzealousness of hanging someone whose only crime was paying attention ends with you mislynching a townie, then what? Why is that their fault for outing the NK and not your fault for being trigger happy?

[Algus]

This argument is circular. Town shouldn't point out the death note because the person outing the death note isn't Town.

But why shouldn't Town do it in the first place? And when (not if) your overzealousness of hanging someone whose only crime was paying attention ends with you mislynching a townie, then what? Why is that their fault for outing the NK and not your fault for being trigger happy?

I answered you. Town shouldn't do it because town shouldn't be screaming "I'M MAFIA".

This is what I mean when I say that the members of town that (rarely) do do this are more of a detriment to the rest of town.

When you're acting like scum you're going to get yourself lynched, and to be perfectly clear, it's going to be your own fault.

Everyones paying attention, you aren't getting points for stating something we all saw. We're all looking for scum, and the person that feels the need to point out the obvious tends to be the scum, because they tend to have literally nothing of merit to add.

A TI would be giving out known information, an escort would be naming their RB, and the list goes on. What the mafia is going to do is point out that death note, because it furthers their goal and it allows them to talk without really saying anything.

Any town member who is contributing to a mislynch, who is furthering the mafia's objective, and who is not adding anything of merit to the day to day conversation is strictly bad. Any town member doing that, is a fucking garbage teammate to have.

[MysticMismagius]

I answered you. Town shouldn't do it because town shouldn't be screaming "I'M MAFIA".

This is what I mean when I say that the members of town that (rarely) do do this are more of a detriment to the rest of town. This is begging the question: you haven't proven that people who do this are scum or are screaming "I AM MAFIA", or that it is rare that a non-mafia will point it out.

When you're acting like scum you're going to get yourself lynched, and to be perfectly clear, it's going to be your own fault.

Everyones paying attention, you aren't getting points for stating something we all saw. You'd be surprised how many people miss these seemingly "obvious" things. People often don't read the wills and death notes even though valuable information can be on them. It's not a crime to point it out in case this happens. We're all looking for scum, and the person that feels the need to point out the obvious tends to be the scum, because they tend to have literally nothing of merit to add.

A TI would be giving out known information, an escort would be naming their RB, and the list goes on. Not every townie has information to give. TI might not have found anything useful. The person you roleblocked may already claim they've been roleblocked before you said anything. Medium may not have gotten anything but a "hi" from the dead. TP sure as hell has no information from the night, same for Ret and Mayor. Sometimes the best you can do is point out something that the rest of Town seems to have missed. This is still valuable even if it's not information you got yourself. Edit: If you are giving other information, and pointing out the "obvious" on top of that, there shouldn't be any problem with that. What the mafia is going to do is point out that death note, because it furthers their goal and it allows them to talk without really saying anything. I would argue that "hey guys you missed this and it might be important" isn't "talking without really saying anything", but I digress.

Any town member who is contributing to a mislynch, Hanging NK isn't a mislynch, and if you instahang someone who points out the death note then they are only marginally "contributing" to their own mislynch who is furthering the mafia's objective, and who is not adding anything of merit to the day to day conversation is strictly bad. Any town member doing that, is a fucking garbage teammate to have.

Question for you: Would pointing out the will of someone who found an evil, that the rest of Town seems to have missed, be just as bad as pointing out the death note? If not, what's the difference?

[Algus]

I answered you. Town shouldn't do it because town shouldn't be screaming "I'M MAFIA".

This is what I mean when I say that the members of town that (rarely) do do this are more of a detriment to the rest of town. This is begging the question: you haven't proven that people who do this are scum or are screaming "I AM MAFIA", or that it is rare that a non-mafia will point it out.

When you're acting like scum you're going to get yourself lynched, and to be perfectly clear, it's going to be your own fault.

Everyones paying attention, you aren't getting points for stating something we all saw. You'd be surprised how many people miss these seemingly "obvious" things. People often don't read the wills and death notes even though valuable information can be on them. It's not a crime to point it out in case this happens. We're all looking for scum, and the person that feels the need to point out the obvious tends to be the scum, because they tend to have literally nothing of merit to add.

A TI would be giving out known information, an escort would be naming their RB, and the list goes on. Not every townie has information to give. TI might not have found anything useful. The person you roleblocked may already claim they've been roleblocked before you said anything. Medium may not have gotten anything but a "hi" from the dead. TP sure as hell has no information from the night, same for Ret and Mayor. Sometimes the best you can do is point out something that the rest of Town seems to have missed. This is still valuable even if it's not information you got yourself. What the mafia is going to do is point out that death note, because it furthers their goal and it allows them to talk without really saying anything. I would argue that "hey guys you missed this and it might be important" isn't "talking without really saying anything", but I digress.

Any town member who is contributing to a mislynch, Hanging NK isn't a mislynch, and if you instahang someone who points out the death note then they are only marginally "contributing" to their own mislynch who is furthering the mafia's objective, and who is not adding anything of merit to the day to day conversation is strictly bad. Any town member doing that, is a fucking garbage teammate to have.

Question for you: Would pointing out the will of someone who found an evil, that the rest of Town seems to have missed, be just as bad as pointing out the death note? If not, what's the difference?

Read very carefully:

Townies are going to mislynch or contribute to it once in awhile. Townies are occasionally going to have literally nothing valuable to say. Townies are occasionally going to actively contribute to the mafia's goal. No townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, and BECAUSE no townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, no one who does all 3 at once is a townie.

And because I feel like I see the next stupid question coming, when I say 'contribute to a mislynch, read that as 'i'm acting like scum' or 'i'm doing something that makes me LOOK like scum'

Also, killing the NK is contributing to the mafia's goal. No one was saying hanging the NK is a mislynch. A mislynch is when a town member gets hanged. A town member only ever gets hanged by a town majority if the majority of town believes they're scum.


A confirmed townie can do whatever the fuck they want, and it's far less suspicious to be pointing out a confirmed town's will than a mafia's deathnote, to answer that question.

[MysticMismagius]

Read very carefully:

Townies are going to mislynch or contribute to it once in awhile. Townies are occasionally going to have literally nothing valuable to say. Townies are occasionally going to actively contribute to the mafia's goal. No townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, and BECAUSE no townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, no one who does all 3 at once is a townie. I like how you barely addressed anything I said here, and are just restating your argument over and over again. Pointing out the death note is not necessarily contributing to a mislynch under your definition, and can be valuable. The only one of the three things you listed that it without a doubt does is the last one, and in a way that also contributes actively to Town's goal because they want the NKs dead too.

And because I feel like I see the next stupid question coming, No, but the insults don't help, especially since this would have been a good question to ask when I say 'contribute to a mislynch, read that as 'I'm acting like scum' or 'I'm doing something that makes me LOOK like scum'. Again, pointing out the death note is not necessarily acting like scum or making yourself look like scum, and I've explained in several ways why Townies might have a good reason to do it.

A confirmed townie can do whatever the fuck they want, and it's far less suspicious to be pointing out a confirmed town's will than a mafia's deathnote, to answer that question. I never said the will was from a townie, but fair enough.

[Algus]

Read very carefully:

Townies are going to mislynch or contribute to it once in awhile. Townies are occasionally going to have literally nothing valuable to say. Townies are occasionally going to actively contribute to the mafia's goal. No townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, and BECAUSE no townie is going to be doing all 3 at once, no one who does all 3 at once is a townie. I like how you barely addressed anything I said here, and are just restating your argument over and over again. Pointing out the death note is not necessarily contributing to a mislynch under your definition, and can be valuable. The only one of the three things you listed that it without a doubt does is the last one, and in a way that also contributes actively to Town's goal because they want the NKs dead too.

And because I feel like I see the next stupid question coming, No, but the insults don't help, especially since this would have been a good question to ask when I say 'contribute to a mislynch, read that as 'I'm acting like scum' or 'I'm doing something that makes me LOOK like scum'. Again, pointing out the death note is not necessarily acting like scum or making yourself look like scum, and I've explained in several ways why Townies might have a good reason to do it.

A confirmed townie can do whatever the fuck they want, and it's far less suspicious to be pointing out a confirmed town's will than a mafia's deathnote, to answer that question. I never said the will was from a townie, but fair enough.

and as I already said, regardless of what you think you're doing, you're being perceived as scum.

I'm gonna run you through some more.

"I'm claiming TP but I wasn't on the jailor claim n1"

alright well you're scum. it doesn't really matter what you thought you were doing, what you ended up doing was getting yourself lynched.

"I'm ret, but it's d4 and I havent revived the dead invest, even though no ones been rbed all game"

doesn't really matter what you thought you were doing does it? cuz that claim is getting hanged anyway

You don't have to have malicious intentions to be perceived as bad. If you're pointing out the mafia's deathnote, and it's so hard to repeat this 8 times in one thread, you are being perceived as bad.

If you're being perceived as bad, it's because you are bad. Whether that means your mafia, or maybe you just aren't any good at the game. One of those 2 things is true.

[kyuss420]

Lynching NK because they are a confirmed evil, when the only way they can win is to kill mafia, is playing into mafias strategy, basically handing mafia the win, But this is only the case if you're desperate to kill Mafia, specifically, right exactly now. Obviously if you're desperate to kill the Mafia, then kill the Mafia. Duh. But situations where you need to kill a member of the mafia only, right now or you will lose while the NK is still alive are not even that common, let alone a constant. Unless you are arguing that the Mafia will only reveal the NK in their death note when getting them lynched the next day will put them in majority, which I can assure you is not true (they tend to out them as soon as they find them), claims about the desperate edge cases don't exactly prove OP's point. Remember, they argued that pointing out the death note is never a good idea, to the point where they will instantly try to hang you if you ever do it, not something that is only a bad idea if and when you become desperate to kill the Mafia. Neither of you have provided any reason not to point out the NK from the death note outside of desperation cases like this (or times where you have leads on the Mafia, but again, duh).

This situation occurs EVERY game I am NK and maf havent found me by n3. This situation occurs in 95% of the games where there is an NK win. If this situation isnt occuring, you arent going to win as NK. Mafia is always going to hit you eventually, unless consig or consort has found you. If theres a big enough majority of either faction, they will hang you. The only way to win as NK is by keeping majority even. - well SK and WW at least, arso is a different story

Point being, if town is busy discussing who the mafia possibily are, for 15 seconds, and you blurt out ''maf death note said 8 is immune, he must be NK'' you are basically saying ''stop pushing for maf'' which only a mafia would do. Especially if the NK is a WW on a non killing night.

[UzayAltay]

1) Somebody being Scummy Dont mean they are scum .
2) In First case , You Said You would Guilty retri claim . I think guiltying retri claim I that case is 100% A thing Mafia would Do . Why ? If We ignore Witch and transporter , If spy is town , retri is town . If You want to lynch one of These , it should be spy .
Actually , You may add that to your example situations , guiltying A role that can be confirmed by lynching somebody else when there is no LyLO /MyLo . It is Objectively Scummy , right ? But no , you are doing This , So You Obviously wont add that , Because You Dont see that as Scum move .
3) I think above example shows You What scum does depends , right ? It is Completely possible A townie to point death note.
Especially If they Also have information about them , but Do not want to out themselves.
Or when it is NKLo .
Or pointing something is A Maf move may not come from Mafia every time .
Maybe they see A Scummy play ( possible short-Bussing , splitting , calling invest executioner etc ) and want to point it ?
4) Below Discussion about when to lynch NK , I think You All understood Each other wrong . Kyuss defended Town shouldn't lynch SK when they lose pure majority , but I think it is far from main Discussion , despite being correct . Main Discussion was whether to lynch NK when town have pure majority , and I think answer is Yes. Algus defend with "it helps Mafia " , but forget Mafia and NK s are secret allies on early Game : They both try to eleminate townies in early Game . Eleminating NK when town have majority reduces scum KPN to 1 , which helps town A lot .
Doctor not being on Jailor for one night may be acceptable ( WIFOM ) , it wouldnt be my preference but still I cannot see that being 100/100 scum play . ( Especially when at Day 1 they are not confirmed Jailor )
Retri not reviving for 3 nights , I cannot argue with that ( assuming A normal role-list town has majority ) . It is really Scummy play that I would lynch 99% of The time .