wozearly wrote:The introduction of Any would require more than one change to the rolelist, as the logical role it plays is to typically roll either 9th Town or 4th Mafia and leave the more curious combinations such as Vampire and double NK to their original Ranked levels of rarity. A modified Any (e.g. Any non-Town) could potentially be used if the goal was to vary the exact type of opposition Town faced to reduce the effectiveness of PoE.
I was answering to his suggestion of replacing the 4th RT with an any slot. An any non town (which is just another way of saying Random Neutral, since in a game with 4 mafia slots there can't be more mafia members spawning) would still be bad due to its chance of spawning vampires (the most unfair role ever), kingmakers (also unfair) or a second NK (which would ruin the town's chances, especially when they get 2 SKs + the mafia while they are only 8). Also, an any non town would reduce claimspace even more.
wozearly wrote:Reducing luck factor to a minimum is...well, aspects of that are desirable, but it needs to be handled carefully to avoid making Ranked too formulaic and Town-favoured. A certain level of randomness is incredibly healthy for ToS when it comes to claimspace and replayability. Exactly where the line for "too much" randomness lies is very much a matter of personal preference rather than objective fact.
Of course, randomness is important so evils can claim. But that has nothing to do with adding a RN slot, which is what you're suggesting, since that wouldn't increase claimspace. It would reduce it. Games should be decided by the skill of the players, not by the rolelist.
wozearly wrote:The opposite of All Any is Classic, not Ranked.
This is completely subjective, not a fact.
wozearly wrote:PS. C'mon, you're better than that hoary old myth of 8 Townies vs 7 evils leading to an evil takeover D2. One of those evils is NK, who has every reason to appear Town to the Mafia rather than identify as one of a very limited number of evils.
Town is a way higher threat to them than mafia, since they can kill them both at day and night, so they would focus on them first. NKs can still kill mafia at night.
wozearly wrote:a) The evils would have absolutely no idea on D2 that they held a blocking vote if Any is involved. They would assume Town had majority, and vote with Town accordingly unless they had a specific reason not to. Town would effectively retain voting control until the evils better understand the actual roleset and the actual risk of openly blocking. Incidentally, you can see this happen quite regularly in All Any.
If they add a random neutral as you suggested, evils would know for sure their numbers. Even if they didn't, a second sk kill would confirm it while NEs would still vote against town due to their win condition. And besides, the odds of the any slot spawning a non town role are of 40% (41% excluding the rare VH, 39% otherwise). It's a risk worth taking in a gamemode where town has the advantage.
wozearly wrote:b) Evils are not a unified block. The NK is anti-mafia, and the aims of the Jester and Exe are not always Mafia-aligned. If the Mafia were crazy enough to attempt to openly gain voting control on D2 by attempting to rely on the neutrals, they would reveal themselves to Town's TKs and the NK, and wouldn't hold voting majority for long.
The NK is anti mafia, but they are also anti town. And which enemy would you try to bring down first? The one that wins most games, or the one that doesn't? Jesters and exes might not be mafia aligned, but jesters will still try to seem evil with their votes, so they would help, and exes would be trying to lynch their target, which is a vote against town. Either that, or they would wait for evils to get mayority so they can easily lynch their target.
wozearly wrote:c) A Town which has a Jailor, Vigilante, Veteran, Transporter, Doc+Bodyguard or 2 Escorts is never, ever, truly out of play. Town (and their temporary NK ally) have a number of ways to regain majority that early.
That's completely luck-based, and harder to achieve with 8 townies. Besides, not all the roles you mentioned are that relevant. Veterans can't do anything if they don't know who the mafia is. Transporters have to predict who the evils will target and can make vigis shoot the townie they were trying to protect (and announcing who you are going to shoot is risky when the prescence of up to 2 witches or a ww is very possible. There might even be a consort. The doc + bg combo is still dangerous, but with the chances of 2 NKs spawning it can be broken. But the odds of that combo being formed day 2 are pretty low, especially since TPs wouldn't know who to trust and wouldn't want to expose themselves when evils are mayority. 2 escorts can't really do anything to save the game unless there is a TK to kill evils. Even then, they have to know the role of the person they are roleblocking, and that can't really be done by scumreading. And I insist in that NKs are the temporally ally of mafia, not town. They will still kill mafia at night, but only when that doesn't give town mayority.