Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

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Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby elile » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:54 pm

Hello, I would like to request that a new feature is made to allow individuals to either pick the pronouns for their account or for the system to use gender neutral pronouns. Although the "Easy" choice is to just pick a skin based upon what you are, the issue arises when a androgynous or even masc-appearing character is "apparently as girl" as seen most heavily in the Uriel skin. Some players express distaste for spending so much money on a skin onto to find it calls them something unexpected or unliked, and may for various reasons not like being called one way or the other. This is not really a "trans" issue, although many may assume it to be such, as much as ensuring individuals are enjoying the game to the fullest and not feeling as if they may less satisfied with a purchase due to a misconception. A possible easy fix would be to just shift the androgynous to masc skins to have different pronouns, however this would possibly upset any current users who don't mind or even enjoy the current system. Though this is is in general a relatively small thing, it can persuade individuals to be more or less likely to purchase items in game based upon such a stupid reason, and could even be causing issues where people aren't buying certain more exclusive items simply based upon this.

Skin examples that I have documented by other players with problems with their pronouns:
Uriel
Crusader* (Apparently was a bug when appeared as a "girl" before, but some experienced distaste with the change.)
Potion Master
Poisoner

You may see a small example of some of the complaints in steam threads (https://steamcommunity.com/app/334230/d ... 603836453/), though most I've paid attention to were in-game. There is a former doccumented "player pronouns" thing in suggestions, however it neither looks into the issues of "mistaken" characters, as well as seems to be heavily derailed and focusing with interest on transgender experiences in the matter. However, 41% agreed they'd like customizations, and 6% said they'd want it to be customized or gender neutral inherently. There could be options such as "character specific/they/he/she" to ensure all parties could be satisfied. Thank you for hearing my proposal.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Yemac » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:06 am

/nosupport.

It's just a game. I think there are more pressing issues with the game itself and the community the devs have to focus on, than to put in a lot of work for a small minority that either bought something with the wrong pronoun, or don't enjoy the game as much because of said pronouns. (+ this is a political issue, not something a casual game should need to focus on)
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby woahah » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:55 am

Yemac wrote:/nosupport.

It's just a game. I think there are more pressing issues with the game itself and the community the devs have to focus on, than to put in a lot of work for a small minority that either bought something with the wrong pronoun, or don't enjoy the game as much because of said pronouns. (+ this is a political issue, not something a casual game should need to focus on)

it is a political issue to be able to pick your own pronoun ok
i get its a minor change that the devs would inevitably take ages on because, well, devs, but it would make some people feel much more welcome in the game.

Also this is a feature that most games with pronouns in use have so
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Superalex11 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:41 pm

woahah wrote:i get its a minor change that the devs would inevitably take ages on because, well, devs, but it would make some people feel much more welcome in the game.

Even on the list of minor changes, this one really falls super low on priority. If the only thing this change would to is make people "feel more welcome" I really don't even see the point of spending time on it. And honestly, if someone is choosing whether or not to buy (or even support) the game, and the lack of this option is the deciding factor, I wouldn't really trust that person's opinion anyway.

woahah wrote:Also this is a feature that most games with pronouns in use have so

...no it isn't? Unless you mean just choosing a character's gender in general, in which case that doesn't really apply here. There are plenty of options for skins of both genders, both free and paid.



Overall, this is probably the least important suggestion I've seen (aside from new roles), and while it wouldn't be a "bad" change per se, I am gonna give a hard no.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:03 am

does anyone really care about the fictional gender of a fictional character in a fiction based game? I mean, youre not really a sheriff either, so why doesnt being called sheriff in a fiction based game annoy you?
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby MissAlanius » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:32 pm

Just because you identify as one thing doesn't mean you have to have the character be you.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby ShylokVakarian » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:48 pm

/support

As a member of the LGBTQIAOMGWTFBBQ+, I really like when gender is a thing you can choose, even if it's just He/She. He/She/They is ideal, but I'd still consider it an improvement if we can choose gender separate from skin at all.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Brilliand » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:50 pm

ShylokVakarian wrote:/support

As a member of the LGBTQIAOMGWTFBBQ+, I really like when gender is a thing you can choose, even if it's just He/She. He/She/They is ideal, but I'd still consider it an improvement if we can choose gender separate from skin at all.


I'd consider it weird and confusing if I saw people using the default "male" or "female" skin with the opposite pronoun.

If you have an unusual gender identity, you could at least change your clothes to match.

For stuff like werewolves, though, I agree - how are we humans to know whether a werewolf is male or female?
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:29 am

Brilliand wrote:
ShylokVakarian wrote:/support

As a member of the LGBTQIAOMGWTFBBQ+, I really like when gender is a thing you can choose, even if it's just He/She. He/She/They is ideal, but I'd still consider it an improvement if we can choose gender separate from skin at all.


I'd consider it weird and confusing if I saw people using the default "male" or "female" skin with the opposite pronoun.

If you have an unusual gender identity, you could at least change your clothes to match.

For stuff like werewolves, though, I agree - how are we humans to know whether a werewolf is male or female?


the male ones have furry balls
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby CrimsonKatana » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:04 am

I think this would just create more harassment, when you have a different pronoun than the default and you know when someone that doesn't like it sees it, you know what could happen...
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby emslaya » Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:15 pm

I actually suggested the same thing in this forum last year here: https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=99594

Still strongly support this idea, and since it's such a simple fix it should really be done. Like, if devs are lazy they can even possibly fix it by only ever using gender neutral pronouns during the instances the game uses pronouns. They actually created more work for themselves by assigning pronouns based on the skin instead of just doing that in the first place.


Glad to see others are still bringing the idea up here! :D
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby emslaya » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:03 pm

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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby emslaya » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:20 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:I still hold my views that this isn't a change that is needed at all for many reasons:

-Takes up too much time the devs should be focusing elsewhere once Unity is done (like fixing the game, it's modes and roles, giving the games rules another look through)

-It's something so minor a majority of the playerbase doesn't notice at all. Let's face it, most players do not read the part of the death announcements that say "He" or "She". They skim through it and they look for the vital information. It just seems like a change to please such a small portion of the playerbase to me, which is a waste of time given the other problems the game has at the moment that need attention first and foremost.

-As a few users have stated in other threads, it delves into a political part of society that should be kept out of the game which could bring a whole slew of other problems, such as harassment from any troll who notices a different pronoun from the skin or name, and as a juror for Trial, I know there is plenty of harassment on users based off of their names or things folks say (such as openly identifying yourself as a furry) in the first place. We don't need any added reasons for trolls to bully other users.

-This is only a change to what the GAME says, not what other players say. If you were to use a female skin, but identify as a man and have a name that could be either or, and players see your skin and say "Get her!" because they assumed your are a girl, is there going to be an issue there? If you die and people don't pay attention to the pronoun used and still refer to you as a girl, will you have an issue with that? There is still the possibility of folks mislabeling you because you cannot control what other folks think and assume and they can be more vocal about it over 5 seconds of text that is largely missed.

To me this is just something so minor that it should be far, faaarrrr down the devs list of priorities because it's just a cosmetic in reality. The core game and it's functions should be high on the list instead.


1. As someone studying CS, this is an extremely easy fix to make. This fix could probably be done within only a few hours, possibly less, depending on how ToS writes their code. Heck, this might even be something they could just do on the side while working on another fix. It wouldn't take up the sheer amount of time required to nerf/buff roles, make game less laggy/glitchy, etc that is usually required in the Suggestions here. TLDR; Time spent working on this fix should be negligible and really isn't a concern.

2. I listed many threads above requesting the change many times between 2015 and now. If that many people have suggested/requested it on this forum, imagine how many other players would like this change, (the vast majority of players never interact with this forum.)
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby CrimsonKatana » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:07 pm

Okay, like I said before there's a good chance that this will just create more harassment like unnecessarily
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby emslaya » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:52 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:
emslaya wrote:
KatiyaKramer wrote:I still hold my views that this isn't a change that is needed at all for many reasons:

-Takes up too much time the devs should be focusing elsewhere once Unity is done (like fixing the game, it's modes and roles, giving the games rules another look through)

-It's something so minor a majority of the playerbase doesn't notice at all. Let's face it, most players do not read the part of the death announcements that say "He" or "She". They skim through it and they look for the vital information. It just seems like a change to please such a small portion of the playerbase to me, which is a waste of time given the other problems the game has at the moment that need attention first and foremost.

-As a few users have stated in other threads, it delves into a political part of society that should be kept out of the game which could bring a whole slew of other problems, such as harassment from any troll who notices a different pronoun from the skin or name, and as a juror for Trial, I know there is plenty of harassment on users based off of their names or things folks say (such as openly identifying yourself as a furry) in the first place. We don't need any added reasons for trolls to bully other users.

-This is only a change to what the GAME says, not what other players say. If you were to use a female skin, but identify as a man and have a name that could be either or, and players see your skin and say "Get her!" because they assumed your are a girl, is there going to be an issue there? If you die and people don't pay attention to the pronoun used and still refer to you as a girl, will you have an issue with that? There is still the possibility of folks mislabeling you because you cannot control what other folks think and assume and they can be more vocal about it over 5 seconds of text that is largely missed.

To me this is just something so minor that it should be far, faaarrrr down the devs list of priorities because it's just a cosmetic in reality. The core game and it's functions should be high on the list instead.


1. As someone studying CS, this is an extremely easy fix to make. This fix could probably be done within only a few hours, possibly less, depending on how ToS writes their code. Heck, this might even be something they could just do on the side while working on another fix. It wouldn't take up the sheer amount of time required to nerf/buff roles, make game less laggy/glitchy, etc that is usually required in the Suggestions here. TLDR; Time spent working on this fix should be negligible and really isn't a concern.

2. I listed many threads above requesting the change many times between 2015 and now. If that many people have suggested/requested it on this forum, imagine how many other players would like this change, (the vast majority of players never interact with this forum.)

1- And that is time that should be going into fixing the current state of the game first and foremost. I don't care if it takes a few hours or 20 minutes. There has not been a major game update since Coven was dropped really. There has not been a role update in over a year. The current season of Ranked has been running for over a year. The game has been suffering due to the devs focus on Unity, and while it is understandable given the time crunch, it is hurting the game. When Unity is done, the devs need to transition their time from Unity to fixing the game and it's rules before making any cosmetic changes.

2- I glanced through a few of those threads and I have a few things to note: Yes there are people who want this change, but there are also just as many folks who do not want this change. And there have been multiple reasons brought up as to why this change shouldn't be made in those threads, even this one, that no one supporting this wants to address. Also to note: There have been multiple threads over the years with people saying that the game should add some sort of a blacklist feature, and this has been understandably shot down every time due to bullying concerns and lack of a solid playerbase. Number of times suggested does not make any idea a good one.

Like I said, having this be an option could read to new forms of harassment and bullying. While you can change how the game labels you, you cannot change how other humans will label you. Most players do not pay attention to the death announcements when they clarify a gender. If the gender a player uses does not match what a player thinks and they refer to them as the gender they assume they are, the misgendered player could take offense to that and file a HS/H report for misgendering. As someone who has been misgendered once or twice (Face it, most people on the internet get misgendered at least once), I took no offense to it and I think it's utterly silly if people do. It's a mistake. Move on. But I know that not all people think this way and they will be angered enough to file reports on someone for making a mistake. It already happens in Trial.

There is also the stronger change, as I said, that trolls could notice that the gender someone picks isn't the gender their skin or name appears to give them, and they will harass that person. This already happens with people who openly identify as furries in the game, and it will happen here as well.



Another potential solution that I'm in favor of is just having all pronouns the ToS game uses to address players be gender-neutral (ie they/them.) There's no reason for the pronouns to be gendered at all tbh, and it's weird that they would make extra work for themselves by making it a thing in the first place since I imagine simply using they/them pronouns would've been easier to program into the game's code.

Also- people accidentally misgender folks all the time online, (easy to do), but maybe we just don't notice it in-game too much because using names/#'s to refer to folks in the chat instead of "he's VH" or "she visited you" because it makes things more clear/less confusing. It definitely feels weird when the game itself uses gendered pronouns for you though.

Again, wouldn't just dismiss an idea because you value other changes more. You can want multiple things.

(Side note: what is up with how backlogged ToS is on everything? Are they still working on the Unity update?)
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby CrimsonKatana » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:02 pm

Because the avatars you are using identify as either a male or female and you're not playing as your self you're playing as your avatar
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Scootalootaloo » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:24 am

I also want more pronoun choices!
Honestly, what part of the crimson reaper skin means I have to use male pronouns.

Also: IMPORTANT NOTE- there are no skins that use they/them pronouns. This means I am unlikely to continue playing the game until this changes.

I started my own thread in the feedback section before I noticed this thread. Link to mine at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=107377

It includes a poll and suggestions on implementation
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Scootalootaloo » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:35 am

Okay so having read through this thread I want to just say, I've blocked everyone who doesn't support it. As some of those people said themselves, it's a small cosmetic change. Why would anyone oppose this?

The other thing I've noticed that could use an update is that almost all of the avatars (and, in fact, all of the free avatars) are caucasian. No avatars that represent people of color.

Both of those changes are on par with a change ToS has already made in its past; to add female characters to the list of free avatars. Because it's kind of a no-brainer to allow more people to choose/create avatars that they feel can represent them.

Noone objected to that change with "you're upset that you can't pick a woman, but you aren't really a sheriff either so why are you complaining about gender"
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby PikamanUltra » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:04 pm

elile wrote:Hello, I would like to request that a new feature is made to allow individuals to either pick the pronouns for their account or for the system to use gender neutral pronouns. Although the "Easy" choice is to just pick a skin based upon what you are, the issue arises when a androgynous or even masc-appearing character is "apparently as girl" as seen most heavily in the Uriel skin. Some players express distaste for spending so much money on a skin onto to find it calls them something unexpected or unliked, and may for various reasons not like being called one way or the other. This is not really a "trans" issue, although many may assume it to be such, as much as ensuring individuals are enjoying the game to the fullest and not feeling as if they may less satisfied with a purchase due to a misconception. A possible easy fix would be to just shift the androgynous to masc skins to have different pronouns, however this would possibly upset any current users who don't mind or even enjoy the current system. Though this is is in general a relatively small thing, it can persuade individuals to be more or less likely to purchase items in game based upon such a stupid reason, and could even be causing issues where people aren't buying certain more exclusive items simply based upon this.

Skin examples that I have documented by other players with problems with their pronouns:
Uriel
Crusader* (Apparently was a bug when appeared as a "girl" before, but some experienced distaste with the change.)
Potion Master
Poisoner

You may see a small example of some of the complaints in steam threads (https://steamcommunity.com/app/334230/d ... 603836453/), though most I've paid attention to were in-game. There is a former doccumented "player pronouns" thing in suggestions, however it neither looks into the issues of "mistaken" characters, as well as seems to be heavily derailed and focusing with interest on transgender experiences in the matter. However, 41% agreed they'd like customizations, and 6% said they'd want it to be customized or gender neutral inherently. There could be options such as "character specific/they/he/she" to ensure all parties could be satisfied. Thank you for hearing my proposal.


Uriel has always been a girl for me, also, I forgot the name of the skin, but in the demon counter-part skin, it has a unique death animation that shows it being killed by Uriel, in this scene, Uriel has a voice actor, and they are female.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby PikamanUltra » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:22 am

This is kinda unnessecery lol, if it offends you that much then don't play the game, this is on the lowest of priorities and really, if you're the persona of a male sherrif in game then why tf be offended when you're considered a male sherrif. Your pronoun only shows up for 5 seconds after you die and just giving you your skin's gender for that breif period is fine. The people saying this is non-inclusive and is a political issue need to toughen up. The people saying it would be nice, but shouldnt be priority I agree with. Please, the gender of your character, which is only on screen 5 seconds per game, and not at all if you live until the end, isn't that big of an issue
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Granislol » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:56 pm

nope, no support
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Jackparrot » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:59 am

Yemac wrote:/nosupport.

It's just a game. I think there are more pressing issues with the game itself and the community the devs have to focus on, than to put in a lot of work for a small minority that either bought something with the wrong pronoun, or don't enjoy the game as much because of said pronouns. (+ this is a political issue, not something a casual game should need to focus on)


I agree that there are more pressing issues, but this probably won't take a lot of effort to implement, and I bet that more people would feel more welcome, than those that strongly dislike this suggestion.

CrimsonKatana wrote:I think this would just create more harassment, when you have a different pronoun than the default and you know when someone that doesn't like it sees it, you know what could happen...

The people that would do this are probably already harrasing others. There will always be nasty people in this game, should BMG remove the mafioso skin because some racist trash will say innapropriate things?

kyuss420 wrote:does anyone really care about the fictional gender of a fictional character in a fiction based game? I mean, youre not really a sheriff either, so why doesnt being called sheriff in a fiction based game annoy you?


I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Brilliand » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:28 pm

Jackparrot wrote:I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?


It would make some people feel more welcome, it would make some (probably a lot more) players feel less welcome. I'm not seeing the advantage.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby PikamanUltra » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:41 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Jackparrot wrote:I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?


It would make some people feel more welcome, it would make some (probably a lot more) players feel less welcome. I'm not seeing the advantage.

I agree, now I'm an exe, not a psychic. But even I can see the potential of a slippery snowflake slope to SJW land, inclusion is good, and this should be added. But if 'making players feel welcome' is the devs priority the game will go no where.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Jackparrot » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:30 pm

PikamanUltra wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Jackparrot wrote:I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?


It would make some people feel more welcome, it would make some (probably a lot more) players feel less welcome. I'm not seeing the advantage.

I agree, now I'm an exe, not a psychic. But even I can see the potential of a slippery snowflake slope to SJW land, inclusion is good, and this should be added. But if 'making players feel welcome' is the devs priority the game will go no where.


This change would be miniscule, and the vast majority of players probably wouldn't care. It would not take a lot of effort to implement, and I'm not saying this should be a big priority, unity port, major balance change are far more important of course.

Brilliand wrote:
Jackparrot wrote:I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?


It would make some people feel more welcome, it would make some (probably a lot more) players feel less welcome. I'm not seeing the advantage.


How so?
I am not as active as I used to be, although I should be somewhat active.
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