Ranked suggestions!

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Ranked suggestions!

Postby Fatedman » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:11 pm

Gameplay is kinda unbalanced and mafia has close to no chance to win a game. I know you get more exp for a mafia win but I would rather see that exp gain go down and make mafia a little better. I have a two really crucial suggestions that could change the outcome of each game:

1. Mafioso needs an ability or something that makes him more interesting to play. When I look at games nowadays everyone just leaves if they get Mafioso so he needs something, not anything big because that would ruin the balance the other way around.

2. The reason town wins all the time comes down to the two Town Investigate roles that town starts with. By decreasing the Town Investigate roles to one and put in one more Random Town instead would make it more interesting and make it possible for the game to have only one Town Investigate role present. Four Random town just makes sense ;)
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:27 pm

Well, your first suggestion is more fun related than balance related. I don't think that's the right move. In my opinion the right move is actually punishing leavers so they can't just leave day 1 and get away with it. However, a suggestion that you may like is implementing tactical mafia kills.
About your second suggestion, I'm not really sure. Random slots already increase the swing. Besides TIs are the easiest roles to claim besides TP, so this would be bad for evils. It would also increase the chances of TS roles spawning, which is bad since most of them can confirm themselves and/or are overpowered.
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby Fatedman » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:45 pm

I agree, the second claimed solution could be bad now that I think about it. The first one though, I would guess, maybe both more fun and more balanced! Every other role in the game does something unique, Mafioso is just there. He has no function whatsoever than just being a killing messenger.

I still think 2 TI roles doesnt make any sense. I would rather go for randomness more than town too much of an advantage... so change one of the TI to Any instead. Then every game looks different. Yes, if maf gets 5 people its a little bit unfair but that wouldnt happen every game. Aaand if you would do that then you need to change the amount of rank points maf gets with a win also. A change is still in need though and im not sure punishing leavers is the right one. They will still do it cuz mafia is really underpowered :/
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:52 pm

About the mafioso, you should check the link I posted. I can't think of any other change.
About the any, including it in ranked isn't a good idea. It can't spawn a 5th mafia member because there can't be more than 4 mafia/coven/vampires per game, but it still would be able to spawn a serial killer or vampires (who shouldn't spawn in ranked ever). You can't just say "some cases would be unfair but that wouldn't happen every game". We're talking about ranked, were the luck factor should be reduced at its minimum. Besides, if the any slot rolls anything that isn't town, the it will be 8 townies and 7 evils. Evils would be the mayority inmediately as long as they kill someone night 1. Town wouldn't be able to lynch. So no, this would be a bad idea.
About leavers, they can't leave if you ban them. Or at least suspend them. Even if they intentionally leave, they won't be able to do it very often.
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby wozearly » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:21 pm

Fatedman wrote:2. The reason town wins all the time comes down to the two Town Investigate roles that town starts with. By decreasing the Town Investigate roles to one and put in one more Random Town instead would make it more interesting and make it possible for the game to have only one Town Investigate role present. Four Random town just makes sense ;)


Joacgroso wrote:TIs are the easiest roles to claim besides TP, so this would be bad for evils. It would also increase the chances of TS roles spawning, which is bad since most of them can confirm themselves and/or are overpowered.


Joacgroso hit the nail on the head here. One TI and 4 RT was actually tested as one of the options for new Ranked pre-season 1, and it bombed.

Town had a terrifyingly high chance of rolling TS/TP heavy setups which wrecked the night killing roles, and TIs became inherently untrustworthy, pushing the game even further down the VFR route. Currently, TI slots are some of the "safest" non-Town claims. Reducing TS rather than TI is a better way to go with the roles as they are currently.
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby wozearly » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:02 pm

Joacgroso wrote:About the any, including it in ranked isn't a good idea. It can't spawn a 5th mafia member because there can't be more than 4 mafia/coven/vampires per game, but it still would be able to spawn a serial killer or vampires (who shouldn't spawn in ranked ever). You can't just say "some cases would be unfair but that wouldn't happen every game". We're talking about ranked, were the luck factor should be reduced at its minimum. Besides, if the any slot rolls anything that isn't town, the it will be 8 townies and 7 evils. Evils would be the mayority inmediately as long as they kill someone night 1. Town wouldn't be able to lynch. So no, this would be a bad idea.


The introduction of Any would require more than one change to the rolelist, as the logical role it plays is to typically roll either 9th Town or 4th Mafia and leave the more curious combinations such as Vampire and double NK to their original Ranked levels of rarity. A modified Any (e.g. Any non-Town) could potentially be used if the goal was to vary the exact type of opposition Town faced to reduce the effectiveness of PoE.

Reducing luck factor to a minimum is...well, aspects of that are desirable, but it needs to be handled carefully to avoid making Ranked too formulaic and Town-favoured. A certain level of randomness is incredibly healthy for ToS when it comes to claimspace and replayability. Exactly where the line for "too much" randomness lies is very much a matter of personal preference rather than objective fact. The opposite of All Any is Classic, not Ranked. ;)


PS. C'mon, you're better than that hoary old myth of 8 Townies vs 7 evils leading to an evil takeover D2. One of those evils is NK, who has every reason to appear Town to the Mafia rather than identify as one of a very limited number of evils. Even were that situation to arise;

a) The evils would have absolutely no idea on D2 that they held a blocking vote if Any is involved. They would assume Town had majority, and vote with Town accordingly unless they had a specific reason not to. Town would effectively retain voting control until the evils better understand the actual roleset and the actual risk of openly blocking. Incidentally, you can see this happen quite regularly in All Any.

b) Evils are not a unified block. The NK is anti-mafia, and the aims of the Jester and Exe are not always Mafia-aligned. If the Mafia were crazy enough to attempt to openly gain voting control on D2 by attempting to rely on the neutrals, they would reveal themselves to Town's TKs and the NK, and wouldn't hold voting majority for long.

c) A Town which has a Jailor, Vigilante, Veteran, Transporter, Doc+Bodyguard or 2 Escorts is never, ever, truly out of play. Town (and their temporary NK ally) have a number of ways to regain majority that early.


There is a huge difference between Town losing outright voting majority and slipping temporarily into no overall control, and a non-Town faction (Mafia, Vampires, Allied Neutrals) gaining an outright voting majority over everyone else. 8-)
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:51 am

wozearly wrote:The introduction of Any would require more than one change to the rolelist, as the logical role it plays is to typically roll either 9th Town or 4th Mafia and leave the more curious combinations such as Vampire and double NK to their original Ranked levels of rarity. A modified Any (e.g. Any non-Town) could potentially be used if the goal was to vary the exact type of opposition Town faced to reduce the effectiveness of PoE.

I was answering to his suggestion of replacing the 4th RT with an any slot. An any non town (which is just another way of saying Random Neutral, since in a game with 4 mafia slots there can't be more mafia members spawning) would still be bad due to its chance of spawning vampires (the most unfair role ever), kingmakers (also unfair) or a second NK (which would ruin the town's chances, especially when they get 2 SKs + the mafia while they are only 8). Also, an any non town would reduce claimspace even more.

wozearly wrote:Reducing luck factor to a minimum is...well, aspects of that are desirable, but it needs to be handled carefully to avoid making Ranked too formulaic and Town-favoured. A certain level of randomness is incredibly healthy for ToS when it comes to claimspace and replayability. Exactly where the line for "too much" randomness lies is very much a matter of personal preference rather than objective fact.

Of course, randomness is important so evils can claim. But that has nothing to do with adding a RN slot, which is what you're suggesting, since that wouldn't increase claimspace. It would reduce it. Games should be decided by the skill of the players, not by the rolelist.
wozearly wrote:The opposite of All Any is Classic, not Ranked. ;)

This is completely subjective, not a fact.

wozearly wrote:PS. C'mon, you're better than that hoary old myth of 8 Townies vs 7 evils leading to an evil takeover D2. One of those evils is NK, who has every reason to appear Town to the Mafia rather than identify as one of a very limited number of evils.

Town is a way higher threat to them than mafia, since they can kill them both at day and night, so they would focus on them first. NKs can still kill mafia at night.
wozearly wrote:a) The evils would have absolutely no idea on D2 that they held a blocking vote if Any is involved. They would assume Town had majority, and vote with Town accordingly unless they had a specific reason not to. Town would effectively retain voting control until the evils better understand the actual roleset and the actual risk of openly blocking. Incidentally, you can see this happen quite regularly in All Any.

If they add a random neutral as you suggested, evils would know for sure their numbers. Even if they didn't, a second sk kill would confirm it while NEs would still vote against town due to their win condition. And besides, the odds of the any slot spawning a non town role are of 40% (41% excluding the rare VH, 39% otherwise). It's a risk worth taking in a gamemode where town has the advantage.

wozearly wrote:b) Evils are not a unified block. The NK is anti-mafia, and the aims of the Jester and Exe are not always Mafia-aligned. If the Mafia were crazy enough to attempt to openly gain voting control on D2 by attempting to rely on the neutrals, they would reveal themselves to Town's TKs and the NK, and wouldn't hold voting majority for long.

The NK is anti mafia, but they are also anti town. And which enemy would you try to bring down first? The one that wins most games, or the one that doesn't? Jesters and exes might not be mafia aligned, but jesters will still try to seem evil with their votes, so they would help, and exes would be trying to lynch their target, which is a vote against town. Either that, or they would wait for evils to get mayority so they can easily lynch their target.

wozearly wrote:c) A Town which has a Jailor, Vigilante, Veteran, Transporter, Doc+Bodyguard or 2 Escorts is never, ever, truly out of play. Town (and their temporary NK ally) have a number of ways to regain majority that early.

That's completely luck-based, and harder to achieve with 8 townies. Besides, not all the roles you mentioned are that relevant. Veterans can't do anything if they don't know who the mafia is. Transporters have to predict who the evils will target and can make vigis shoot the townie they were trying to protect (and announcing who you are going to shoot is risky when the prescence of up to 2 witches or a ww is very possible. There might even be a consort. The doc + bg combo is still dangerous, but with the chances of 2 NKs spawning it can be broken. But the odds of that combo being formed day 2 are pretty low, especially since TPs wouldn't know who to trust and wouldn't want to expose themselves when evils are mayority. 2 escorts can't really do anything to save the game unless there is a TK to kill evils. Even then, they have to know the role of the person they are roleblocking, and that can't really be done by scumreading. And I insist in that NKs are the temporally ally of mafia, not town. They will still kill mafia at night, but only when that doesn't give town mayority.
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby DoodleNoodleFroodle » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:49 am

Joacgroso wrote: Veterans can't do anything if they don't know who the mafia is.

Even, if they knew who the mafia was they still can't do anything unless visited by them.
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby kosmo16 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am

DoodleNoodleFroodle wrote:
Joacgroso wrote: Veterans can't do anything if they don't know who the mafia is.

Even, if they knew who the mafia was they still can't do anything unless visited by them.


Excuse me? https://m.imgur.com/fvvbuma
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:49 pm

He just said "unless visited by them".
Sorry if I have spelling mistakes. English is not my main language.
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby kosmo16 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:25 am

Joacgroso wrote:He just said "unless visited by them".


But you can bait the visit. Do you think that Mafia randomly visit soneone with 3 members?
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby Descender » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:50 am

kosmo16 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:He just said "unless visited by them".


But you can bait the visit. Do you think that Mafia randomly visit soneone with 3 members?

but if they know youre veteran, they wont do anything
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby kosmo16 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:36 pm

Google wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:He just said "unless visited by them".


But you can bait the visit. Do you think that Mafia randomly visit soneone with 3 members?

but if they know youre veteran, they wont do anything


True. But the discussion is about when you know Mafia and Mafia doesn't know you. There are extremely good vet baits for which Mafia almost always fall.
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby ShylokVakarian » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:16 am

Honestly, I'd love to see the return of the Neutral Benign slot.

kosmo16 wrote:
Google wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:He just said "unless visited by them".


But you can bait the visit. Do you think that Mafia randomly visit soneone with 3 members?

but if they know youre veteran, they wont do anything


True. But the discussion is about when you know Mafia and Mafia doesn't know you. There are extremely good vet baits for which Mafia almost always fall.


I've noticed being a furry is always a good vet bait strategy.
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Re: Ranked suggestions!

Postby kosmo16 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:17 am

ShylokVakarian wrote:Honestly, I'd love to see the return of the Neutral Benign slot.

kosmo16 wrote:
Google wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:He just said "unless visited by them".


But you can bait the visit. Do you think that Mafia randomly visit soneone with 3 members?

but if they know youre veteran, they wont do anything


True. But the discussion is about when you know Mafia and Mafia doesn't know you. There are extremely good vet baits for which Mafia almost always fall.


I've noticed being a furry is always a good vet bait strategy.


I know 2 for which I would fall into and Im really good in finding vets.
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