Jailor (Rework)

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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby TheRealChickenPatty » Tue May 28, 2019 2:50 pm

Interesting role concept.However,what role slot would it take?
Would it take over jailor?It would make sense,but a 8v4v1 doesn't sound like favorable odds,especially since the main killing power for town is dead.
I wanna be the very best
Like no one ever was
To hang them is my real test
and surviving is my cause.

I live every day,
Talking day and night.
To each dead folk,to understand
What the fuck they said about my mom.

MEDIUM (gotta hang them all) it's you and me
MEDIUM,I know its my destiny
MEDIUM, oh you're all dead
With the dead I share my bread.

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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby TheRealChickenPatty » Wed May 29, 2019 1:30 pm

My problem with this rework is that evil jailor is forced to fight against the town.It should be that it could win with every role like survivor,so it doesn't have to hide away from town.

This also only really helps Mafia,when the Neutral Killers are needing some support.

What would you rather side with as a witch,the 4-man team with investigative,silencing,or role blocking capabilities?

Or

.The WW,who can only kill every other night,and may get only 1 kill on those nights,
.The arsonist,who,if it is unlucky enough,can be rendered completely useless through role blocking/deaths of doused targets
.The SK,whose investigative results make it very easy to find.

If you apply this same logic to the evil jailor,it wouldn't be a surprise for them to side with Mafia over NK
I wanna be the very best
Like no one ever was
To hang them is my real test
and surviving is my cause.

I live every day,
Talking day and night.
To each dead folk,to understand
What the fuck they said about my mom.

MEDIUM (gotta hang them all) it's you and me
MEDIUM,I know its my destiny
MEDIUM, oh you're all dead
With the dead I share my bread.

Favorite roles:Transporter,Veteran,Consigliere,Executioner
Least favorite roles:Vigilante,Werewolf,Consort,Witch
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Brilliand » Wed May 29, 2019 1:34 pm

TheRealChickenPatty wrote:.The arsonist,who,if it is unlucky enough,can be rendered completely useless through role blocking/deaths of doused targets


The arsonist's most serious problem, from the witch's perspective, is that the arsonist might have already doused the witch. (Of course he will deny it, but how is the witch to know?)
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby zzjay » Fri May 31, 2019 9:56 pm

This is probably the most absurd idea i have ever seen...
Has anybody thought about the 8v7 scenarios where tk is vet or dead n1
Town litterally loses the game n1.
7v7 no one gets voted,and town cant kill evils at night.
Plus you get 3 kills on n2 xD

A game of lies and deception becames a game of luck and rng
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Brilliand » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:15 am

zzjay wrote:This is probably the most absurd idea i have ever seen...
Has anybody thought about the 8v7 scenarios where tk is vet or dead n1
Town litterally loses the game n1.
7v7 no one gets voted,and town cant kill evils at night.
Plus you get 3 kills on n2 xD

A game of lies and deception becames a game of luck and rng


What mode are you playing where 7v7 is possible?

Ranked starts out as a 9v6 (if we lump all the evils together).
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby StrahmDude » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:13 pm

Brilliand wrote:
zzjay wrote:This is probably the most absurd idea i have ever seen...
Has anybody thought about the 8v7 scenarios where tk is vet or dead n1
Town litterally loses the game n1.
7v7 no one gets voted,and town cant kill evils at night.
Plus you get 3 kills on n2 xD

A game of lies and deception becames a game of luck and rng


What mode are you playing where 7v7 is possible?

Ranked starts out as a 9v6 (if we lump all the evils together).

Jailor spawns as evil, 8v7, vet kills a town so 7v7
then you have evil jailor killing, nk killing, and ma killing. GG town.
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Mystoc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:23 pm

been gone a while will bump some of my roles/reworks, day 1 jailor claims are making the game very boring and stale this needs to change

also what the heck spoilers were removed??? whyyyyyyyyyy
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:50 am

Mystoc wrote:also what the heck spoilers were removed??? whyyyyyyyyyy

Spoiler: Qué?
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:41 am

DragonClaw66 wrote:
Mystoc wrote:also what the heck spoilers were removed??? whyyyyyyyyyy

Qué?

You're a trusted user :c

{this brace should be in spoiler}

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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:41 am

Yeah, doesn't work for me :c
But off topic

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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Mystoc » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:32 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:Yeah, doesn't work for me :c
But off topic


same so many of my roles needs spoilers im super descriptive!
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:12 pm

So you guys are apparently missing some crucial points.

1: Evil jailor shouldn't have auto vest, that instantly confirms it as being the evil jailor.

2: Let jailor freely jail who they want, we need that freedom to play properly.

3: We don't need ANOTHER will destroying role! Which doesn't even make sense if it's a good jailor.

4: Jailor NEEDS to lose one execution for killing as it essentially becomes useless once it loses all it's executions and it's easy to mess up.

Otherwise, I like what's in this rework.
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Mystoc » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:31 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:So you guys are apparently missing some crucial points.

1: Evil jailor shouldn't have auto vest, that instantly confirms it as being the evil jailor.

its not an insta confirmed really only vig can do this and the risks are great, if jailor is town two town die and u lose jailor also and evil jailor could just claimed healed given the jailor meta today of TP always in jailor it isnt far fetched

most attack are from evils and since they can win with evil jailor they wont out him most times, yea vig can get shoot an evil jailor and out them but thats certainly better then being dead and losing the game,

an auto vest is better then being dead peroid

also like Witch evil Jailor as no true allies as evils can kill or hang a witch and isnt gamethrowing evil jailor needs the auto vest


2: Let jailor freely jail who they want, we need that freedom to play properly.

its overpowered to let jailor do this they can endlessly jailor the mafia killing so mafia can never kill and let town TI find the rest of mafia this needs to be changed, jailor should not be able to hold the game hostage no other town roll can do this

also if another town roles is ever deemed so OP like the old mayor meta then jailor can endlessy jail the same target is unfair, other tp have weakness to WW the jailor doesnt


3: We don't need ANOTHER will destroying role! Which doesn't even make sense if it's a good jailor.

it does because excuting is done when u think someone is evil and a evil person will should be useless to town so seeing it shouldnt matter, its punishement for exeing and to make sure u think the person is evil

this is also a buff to evil jailor since if only evil jailor had will cleaning they would instantly be outed as jailor since good jailor would be incapable of cleaning a will


4: Jailor NEEDS to lose one execution for killing as it essentially becomes useless once it loses all it's executions and it's easy to mess up.

Good Jailor already looses all exections currently that hasnt changed

evil Jailors goal is kill all town why would it lose exections for doing so? ofc after the first exec an evil jailor cant exe again without outing they are evil this why using the second execute against a town as evil jailor needds to be tactfully when town no long would have the numbers to vote you up

what is easy to mess up you think an evil jailor would forget if execs a second town he would out himself? explain



Otherwise, I like what's in this rework.


Thanks glad you like it
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:46 pm

1: Except the evil roles won't always work with the evil jailor, the evil jailor could side with arsonist and kill mafia. Not to mention, why would they immediately trust them? And if a vig shoots the supposed jailor and they don't die and there's no doc claiming that they healed them, it's an immediate out, even with most retarded towns. Additionally, it is gamethrowing to make yourself intentionally lose, regardless of whether you have a faction made up of more than just you or not. In the end, they need to survive, like witch or town has too big of an advantage.

2: Except they aren't with this. You forget a few things. The first being that the jailor currently loses all their ability to execute upon killing a townie which the mafia can orchestrate. The second is that only if the mafioso or godfather is left does it become bad for the mafia however, if there are NK's left. A better way to solve this is to allow someone not normally a killer to well, kill. And again, the jailor not being able to jail freely makes it a dead role when you can't jail to confirm something. And the WW kills the jailor on the full moon.

3: The problem with adding another cleaning role is that in the end, it becomes TOO heavily in favor of the evil roles as townies would have virtually no information. This is especially true if the jailor fucks up and kills a townie which again, can be orchestrated by the mafia or the witch. This with no executions is just waay too big of a penalty, it makes jailor not fun to play because it's too risky so people leave.

4: The evil jailor wouldn't lose executions for killing townies but the good jailor needs to be able to come back from one mistake otherwise it's a dead role.
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:07 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:1: Except the evil roles won't always work with the evil jailor, the evil jailor could side with arsonist and kill mafia. Not to mention, why would they immediately trust them? And if a vig shoots the supposed jailor and they don't die and there's no doc claiming that they healed them, it's an immediate out, even with most retarded towns. Additionally, it is gamethrowing to make yourself intentionally lose, regardless of whether you have a faction made up of more than just you or not. In the end, they need to survive, like witch or town has too big of an advantage.

again yea evils can choose to out them which most times is a bad play unless the evil jailor is being hostile to them, but if evil jailor didnt have the auto vest hes just dead how is being shot then potentialy outed as evil jailor worse then just losing the game dying right away? an auto vest is better then death for evil jailor like you said he has no true allies so he needs the auto it doesnt matter if it can out him has evil because the other option is him just being dead losing from the first attack

Again i repeat evils Jailor goal is live to see all town dead, if he dies he loses the game its over he needs the auto vest


2: Except they aren't with this. You forget a few things. The first being that the jailor currently loses all their ability to execute upon killing a townie which the mafia can orchestrate. The second is that only if the mafioso or godfather is left does it become bad for the mafia however, if there are NK's left. A better way to solve this is to allow someone not normally a killer to well, kill. And again, the jailor not being able to jail freely makes it a dead role when you can't jail to confirm something. And the WW kills the jailor on the full moon.

I didnt get forget that how does that even have anything to do with jailing the same persson twice in a row? if mafia tricks him that has nothing to with jailor balance and everything to do with the player playing the role irreverent

so ur solution to the problem of jailor abusing this is change how mafia works? this is a jailor rework not a mafia rework off topic

Jailor is ment to lead town by confriming himslef to get info and kill those who he thinks are guilty with an unstoppable attack thats extreamly useful he can do it 3 times, the fact he cant jail the same person twice in a row makes him useless? please get real you that isnt true boredfan

if jailor thinks someone is evil he should just exe them not jail them forever hes holding the game hostage that way no other role in the game can do this unfun and unfair why are u defending this?




3: The problem with adding another cleaning role is that in the end, it becomes TOO heavily in favor of the evil roles as townies would have virtually no information. This is especially true if the jailor fucks up and kills a townie which again, can be orchestrated by the mafia or the witch. This with no executions is just waay too big of a penalty, it makes jailor not fun to play because it's too risky so people leave.

it just cleans wills not roles, a good jailor should only clean evil roles wills which will contain no useful info, only bad jailors will exec town

again if mafia tricks jailor to exec someone that is player error and is irrelvant to role balance bored a person messing up does not have any factoring in whether a role is good or not

witch can do this but first the have to know how jailor is that part is usualy easy with self confirming jailors day 1, but then they have to guess who he will jail and witch him into them that is not easy thing to, and then witch has risk LO

also if a jailor exec a townie only 1will ever be cleaned not 3 since hes looses exec cleaning a will of 1 townie off a good witch play is
not OP bored

you keep talking about player choice in how they place a role like it effects the role it doesnt if a player leave when getting jailor thats the players fault, theres a difference between how a player plays and the meta of how a role is played (what the best way to play the role is) jailor revealing day 1 is a meta and it works jailor being auto confirmed and protected is what makes the role OP

making it so a jailor can be evil gets rid of that problem


4: The evil jailor wouldn't lose executions for killing townies but the good jailor needs to be able to come back from one mistake otherwise it's a dead role.


uhh normal jailor already looses all exec when he execs a town member are arguing to change something that already a mechanic in the game? Jailor execing a town member and losing all the his executes is not a new thing bored
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:47 pm

-One way to solve this without a vest is to tell all the evils who the evil jailor is. This should honestly be done with witch. That way, they don't waste a night attacking them to confirm and a vest isn't needed.

-Have you played jailor more than a couple times? I've played it a lot, it's one of the roles given to me the most and you often need to double jail or the town just straight up loses. It isn't abuse to use this. Also, no, what I said about the mafia isn't actually off topic because it was in relation to the jailor. How people play is always relevant to balance.

-The BIGGEST problem with jailor is it's ability to be confirmed and rarely ever getting lynched because the town doesn't believe that it's true. The only times they get lynched is if the town is super retarded or the jailor doesn't claim OR someone else dumbly claims it and the jailor doesn't exe them or out them properly. It is BAD that the jailor is confirmed, there shouldn't be a day one confirmed role because that alone sets the clock forward for evils as soon as that claim is made.

-Again, it is very possible to get tricked into exeing a townie. It doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad jailor, you are just Human and make mistakes. Bad jailors exe confirmed towies or those that aren't all that suspicious. The very fact that evil roles can trick the jailor like this is a check to the jailor's power albeit not enough on it's own. But it does contribute to the balance. And even with only one needed will lost, it's still a huge lost provided the person actually wrote stuff down that was useful.

-I know the jailor loses all his executions, I have played it clearly waaay more than you have and it's just a bad mechanic.
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:24 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:-One way to solve this without a vest is to tell all the evils who the evil jailor is. This should honestly be done with witch. That way, they don't waste a night attacking them to confirm and a vest isn't needed.

yea that makes the role to easy you may as well make evil jailor/witch members of the mafia also witch does already have an scum vest soo why shouldnt evil jailor have one, also if u do that mafia can out the evil jailor as they are about to die and it wouldnt be gamethrowing since they arent in the same faction horrible idea

-Have you played jailor more than a couple times? I've played it a lot, it's one of the roles given to me the most and you often need to double jail or the town just straight up loses. It isn't abuse to use this. Also, no, what I said about the mafia isn't actually off topic because it was in relation to the jailor. How people play is always relevant to balance.

give an example where u NEED to do this not buying it, talking about changing mafia is separate idea make your own post if you want to do that it is off topic, no it isnt roles are balanced in the best possible way they can be played not the worst of roles were balanced around low elo games roles would be gorssly OP

-The BIGGEST problem with jailor is it's ability to be confirmed and rarely ever getting lynched because the town doesn't believe that it's true. The only times they get lynched is if the town is super retarded or the jailor doesn't claim OR someone else dumbly claims it and the jailor doesn't exe them or out them properly. It is BAD that the jailor is confirmed, there shouldn't be a day one confirmed role because that alone sets the clock forward for evils as soon as that claim is made.

agreed so add an evil jailor

-Again, it is very possible to get tricked into exeing a townie. It doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad jailor, you are just Human and make mistakes. Bad jailors exe confirmed towies or those that aren't all that suspicious. The very fact that evil roles can trick the jailor like this is a check to the jailor's power albeit not enough on it's own. But it does contribute to the balance. And even with only one needed will lost, it's still a huge lost provided the person actually wrote stuff down that was useful.

yes yes it does, a great jailor should never exe a town member, does it mean your trash if u do no way but top ELO jailor wouldnt exe a town, that cant make u be tricked dude thats on you if you are

the jailor roles does not have its description can be tricked by mafia, the players misplays have nothing to do with the role


-I know the jailor loses all his executions, I have played it clearly waaay more than you have and it's just a bad mechanic.


so a jailor randomly execing people incase they are mafia is a good idea multiple times they only reason jailor doesnt do this is because he fears losing execs its like this in the game atm for a good reason bored
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:03 am

Sigh. You keep ignoring key points of my arguments and don't get game design. If you don't get it this time, I'm done, you'll never get it.

1-It doesn't just magically become easy, people can figure out you're not town and lynch or shoot you which means it takes some level of skill, moreso if both versions exist in a match at once.

2-Again, scum vests CONFIRM them as being evil, that is why they don't work. We don't need the town to instantly know someone is evil and often, it's how come witch gets lynched or executed. That's why it's a horrible idea. ALSO, making it faction aligned is a horrible idea, YOUR horrible idea, not mine. Also, the mafia would be gamethrowing if the witch/evil jailor has decided to side with them, even though they aren't in the same faction. It is worse when an individual does it while the rest of their faction or at least one other member is still alive because then you're destroying your faction's chance to win. Thus, gamethrowing.

3-Here's an example of needing to jail twice in a row. You jail someone night one, they are silent so you can either try to get them lynched and the town is hesitant, especially if there is an evil jailor role then you need to be able to execute the obvious evil person. You would be hurting your faction if you didn't. Ya, you can wait a day but one day in Town of Salem is a lot of lost ground in many matches.

4-I'm not against an evil jailor, I have been thinking along the same line but always struggled with figuring out how it would work because of how the game currently does, particularly for Coven mode.

5-Again, even the best players make mistakes and can be tricked into killing a townie. It really depends on the skill of the would be trickers. It doesn't make you any worse, it just makes you Human.

6-The MOST important part of the game is the deception element, it's built into the very concept of the game that's why players being able to trick each other is IMPORTANT regardless of role.

7-I'm not saying that the jailor should have unlimited executions, I'm saying they should lose ONE execution and only one. I've seen many times where one mistake or getting witched to kill someone innocent turns you into a useless potato.
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Mystoc » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:48 am

Boredfan1 wrote:Sigh. You keep ignoring key points of my arguments and don't get game design. If you don't get it this time, I'm done, you'll never get it.

its you who is doing this bored you bring a diff points each time and adress about half of what i said

1-It doesn't just magically become easy, people can figure out you're not town and lynch or shoot you which means it takes some level of skill, moreso if both versions exist in a match at once.

if mafia knows the jailor is evil and knows who they are it becomes easy they wont attack him so they have a 5th ally also jailor is forced to play nice with them since they would know auto who he is, also any mafia could just out who the jailor if they are about to be hanged its a horrible idea to let mafia know who evil jailor is

2-Again, scum vests CONFIRM them as being evil, that is why they don't work. We don't need the town to instantly know someone is evil and often, it's how come witch gets lynched or executed. That's why it's a horrible idea. ALSO, making it faction aligned is a horrible idea, YOUR horrible idea, not mine. Also, the mafia would be gamethrowing if the witch/evil jailor has decided to side with them, even though they aren't in the same faction. It is worse when an individual does it while the rest of their faction or at least one other member is still alive because then you're destroying your faction's chance to win. Thus, gamethrowing.

so should all NK not have defense if they get attacked they are CONFIRMED EVIL bored what about godfather, get rid of all there defense it confirms them as evil!!!!

i said it would BASICALLY be a mafia member if mafia know who the evil jailor was at the start of the game, it was not my idea bored, its not gamethrowing bored your wrong, its that simple a witch can still win with all mafia dead same with evil jailor, mafia can still win with witch dead gamethrowing is doing an action that goes against your win condition


3-Here's an example of needing to jail twice in a row. You jail someone night one, they are silent so you can either try to get them lynched and the town is hesitant, especially if there is an evil jailor role then you need to be able to execute the obvious evil person. You would be hurting your faction if you didn't. Ya, you can wait a day but one day in Town of Salem is a lot of lost ground in many matches.

our you could you know jail someone else n2 and just jail that person again n3? jail confirms themselves day1 anyway just get him lynched that next day, not waiting to d3 though bored all games last till day 3, late game sure waiting a day is a problem but thats why you you should jail to get info then decide if its evil not jail the same person again and again

especially if there is an evil jailor role then you need to be able to execute the obvious evil person


goood jailor cannot exec an evil jailor there can only ever be one or the other

4-I'm not against an evil jailor, I have been thinking along the same line but always struggled with figuring out how it would work because of how the game currently does, particularly for Coven mode.

you didnt explain this at all way to vague statement why does coven hurt this idea

5-Again, even the best players make mistakes and can be tricked into killing a townie. It really depends on the skill of the would be trickers. It doesn't make you any worse, it just makes you Human.

yes but it has nothing to with role balance

6-The MOST important part of the game is the deception element, it's built into the very concept of the game that's why players being able to trick each other is IMPORTANT regardless of role.

being tricked doesnt make a role less good bored, thats part of the social part of the game it has nothing to do with the role

7-I'm not saying that the jailor should have unlimited executions, I'm saying they should lose ONE execution and only one. I've seen many times where one mistake or getting witched to kill someone innocent turns you into a useless potato.


make your own role for reworked jailor then bored, because thats how it currently in the game
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Re: Jailor (Rework)

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:04 pm

I'm done, you don't listen and you have absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about.
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