Retri re-work options

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby UzayAltay » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:49 am

1) Is there A reason my Idea Hadnt included ?
2) Limiting it that way seems fine .
We can even limit it More : " Any person that killed by A town role , or lynched cant be revived "
38-37 Spoiler: Town Games(21-25)

NFM 50,NFM51 ,NFM52 , 14D , 14 E , NFM 54 ,14H ( AF ) ,14G , NFM 55 , NFM 56 , 15C , NFM 57,NFM 58,15F,SFM45,16B , VFM36 , 16D , SFM 47 , VFM38 , NFM62 , 16G ,VFM 39,EpisodeXVII , 17B , 17C , VFM44 , 17D , 17F,18C,18D,18E,VFM55,VFM57,SFM64, 19C,VFM58, VFM59,19D,VFM60,SFM66,SFM67,VFM64,SFM70,VFM69,XX7

Scum Games (17-12)

NFM 48 , NFM 49 , TFM 65 ,TFM 66 , Episode XV ,TFM68 ,VFM 34, NFM61 , VFM42 , SFM53 , VFM43,17E,VFM49,SFM60,CFM19,VFM54, EpisodeXIX, SFM63, 19E , 19F ,VFM62 ,VFM63,XX3,VFM66,XX5,VFM67,XX6,SFM72,XX8
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:06 pm

UzayAltay wrote:1) Is there A reason my Idea Hadnt included ?
2) Limiting it that way seems fine .
We can even limit it More : " Any person that killed by A town role , or lynched cant be revived "


What do you mean by point 1? What was your idea? And are you saying maybe if Veteran, Jailor or Vigilante miskill, they can be revived?

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby UzayAltay » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:20 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
UzayAltay wrote:1) Is there A reason my Idea Hadnt included ?
2) Limiting it that way seems fine .
We can even limit it More : " Any person that killed by A town role , or lynched cant be revived "


What do you mean by point 1? What was your idea? And are you saying maybe if Veteran, Jailor or Vigilante miskill, they can be revived?

I suggested an idea before, but it still hadnt included at OP .
At 2) , I am trying to say that any player that was killed by jailor, vig,bg,vet,crus,trapper and any player lynched cant be revived.
38-37 Spoiler: Town Games(21-25)

NFM 50,NFM51 ,NFM52 , 14D , 14 E , NFM 54 ,14H ( AF ) ,14G , NFM 55 , NFM 56 , 15C , NFM 57,NFM 58,15F,SFM45,16B , VFM36 , 16D , SFM 47 , VFM38 , NFM62 , 16G ,VFM 39,EpisodeXVII , 17B , 17C , VFM44 , 17D , 17F,18C,18D,18E,VFM55,VFM57,SFM64, 19C,VFM58, VFM59,19D,VFM60,SFM66,SFM67,VFM64,SFM70,VFM69,XX7

Scum Games (17-12)

NFM 48 , NFM 49 , TFM 65 ,TFM 66 , Episode XV ,TFM68 ,VFM 34, NFM61 , VFM42 , SFM53 , VFM43,17E,VFM49,SFM60,CFM19,VFM54, EpisodeXIX, SFM63, 19E , 19F ,VFM62 ,VFM63,XX3,VFM66,XX5,VFM67,XX6,SFM72,XX8
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:58 pm

Is your idea this?
My Suggestion :
Revived Player Will be voteless , wont count at majority , cant whisper or whispered to , and cant be healed by Doctor.

This only leaves retri with problem mediums would be confirmed , which should be solved via A medium rework IMO .
This will encourage Another way of playing : keep Revive until an important role die . For example , reviving Mayor wont Do anything Except confirming ret/Med . So , This rework has The potential broke " revive n2 " Meta .Retris Will still revive If there is A Med claim ( until Med is reworked ) , or they are Under pressure , but it Will be much less .

On-site FM Record: 5-0-3
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:32 am

Oh, that idea...

UzayAltay wrote:1) Is there A reason my Idea Hadnt included ?


I and some others argued strongly against it immediately after you posted it. Besides being a bad idea in general, it reads more like a laundry list of various penalties than as an actual unique idea, and it's a bit similar in effect to another idea that's already on the list. I think StrahmDude concluded from that that it wasn't worth adding. (I suspect the negative reaction from the people immediately replying to your idea was the largest factor.)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby UzayAltay » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:05 am

Brilliand wrote:Oh, that idea...

UzayAltay wrote:1) Is there A reason my Idea Hadnt included ?


I and some others argued strongly against it immediately after you posted it. Besides being a bad idea in general, it reads more like a laundry list of various penalties than as an actual unique idea, and it's a bit similar in effect to another idea that's already on the list. I think StrahmDude concluded from that that it wasn't worth adding. (I suspect the negative reaction from the people immediately replying to your idea was the largest factor.)

Than they can add that into "bad ideas " section ( which is Below The list )
Like I Dont think my Idea is worse Than " removing ret " option , which is still included .
38-37 Spoiler: Town Games(21-25)

NFM 50,NFM51 ,NFM52 , 14D , 14 E , NFM 54 ,14H ( AF ) ,14G , NFM 55 , NFM 56 , 15C , NFM 57,NFM 58,15F,SFM45,16B , VFM36 , 16D , SFM 47 , VFM38 , NFM62 , 16G ,VFM 39,EpisodeXVII , 17B , 17C , VFM44 , 17D , 17F,18C,18D,18E,VFM55,VFM57,SFM64, 19C,VFM58, VFM59,19D,VFM60,SFM66,SFM67,VFM64,SFM70,VFM69,XX7

Scum Games (17-12)

NFM 48 , NFM 49 , TFM 65 ,TFM 66 , Episode XV ,TFM68 ,VFM 34, NFM61 , VFM42 , SFM53 , VFM43,17E,VFM49,SFM60,CFM19,VFM54, EpisodeXIX, SFM63, 19E , 19F ,VFM62 ,VFM63,XX3,VFM66,XX5,VFM67,XX6,SFM72,XX8
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Leharn » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:57 am

Rivelle wrote:My retributionist rework idea :D

Each night, select two players. If one of the selected player dies, they can be revived on ANY night, even if you are dead. The other player that was selected must die on the same night you revive the player. If both players were killed, the spell cannot work.

The selected player that died first cannot communicate with the dead, communicate with a medium, and their role will be cleaned.
You can always choose to recast the spell, if you have not attempted to revive someone yet.

If you attempt to revive a dead player, but the alive player that is selected is an evil role, the revive will not work and you can no longer cast spells.

Example 1:
N1: Retributionist selected Jailor and Sheriff. Jailor was killed by mafia.
N2: Retributionist chose to revive Jailor. Jailor was revived, however Sheriff died.

Example 2:
N1: Retributionist selected Mayor and Medium. Medium was killed by mafia
N2: Retributionist died.
N3: Retributionist revived the Medium and the Mayor died.

Example 3:
N1: Retributionist selected Jester and Transporter. Transporter was killed by mafia
N2: Transporter died.
N3: Retributionist attempts to revive Transporter, but the Retributionist couldn't because they selected an evil role.
D4: Everyone either believes the Retributionist and lynches the Jester or they don't believe the Retributionist, because they think he's a janitor.

Example 4:
N1: Retributionist selected themselves and Jailor. Retributionist was killed by mafia
N2: Retributionist kills jailor and revives themselves
D3: everyone reports retributionist B)



I dislike this idea, it takes one of the worst aspects of ret, rezing on command, adding a bullet similar to vig when they ress, but they don't suicide. Plus, doing it to mafia or Nk can be really unfair and unbalanced. Think of that
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:26 pm

UzayAltay wrote:Like I Dont think my Idea is worse Than " removing ret " option , which is still included .


That's included because people keep bringing it up. Your idea doesn't have two proponents yet.

Leharn wrote:
Rivelle wrote:If you attempt to revive a dead player, but the alive player that is selected is an evil role, the revive will not work and you can no longer cast spells.


I dislike this idea, it takes one of the worst aspects of ret, rezing on command, adding a bullet similar to vig when they ress, but they don't suicide. Plus, doing it to mafia or Nk can be really unfair and unbalanced. Think of that


He took that into account. The ability can only be used to trade a townie for a townie; if it's used to target an evil, all it does is reveal that the selected player is evil (and the one chance to revive is still used up).
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:06 pm

I forgot to add your idea UzayAltay

FOR THE RECORD
I add all ideas regardless of my opinion. For example, I think removing the ret is a terrible idea, yet it is listed.
Sorry for the delay, school has kept me quite busy.

Updating it to include other new ideas

If a mod reads this, can you pin this thread? I will keep it up to date if you do.

EDIT: I am going to refactor the first page here soon. Gammer fixes and standardizing the format more.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:42 pm

You could add the reverse of "life sentence". Having Ret only be able to revive mislynches?

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:36 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:You could add the reverse of "life sentence". Having Ret only be able to revive mislynches?

Since town would ideally never mislynch, this role would be negative utility.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:54 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:You could add the reverse of "life sentence". Having Ret only be able to revive mislynches?

Since town would ideally never mislynch, this role would be negative utility.

I guess so

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Spoiler: Latest Town Game: SFM 70 - Citizen - Win
Latest Scum Game: 20H - Blackmailer - Loss
Latest Neutral Game: SFM72 - Failed Assassin - Win
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:27 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:You could add the reverse of "life sentence". Having Ret only be able to revive mislynches?

Since town would ideally never mislynch, this role would be negative utility.


That's not negative utility, that's "useless unless the town screws up". And really, if the town never mislynches, they're going to win on lynches alone; so being able to revive in a game with no mislynches is just "win more".
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:03 am

Brilliand wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:You could add the reverse of "life sentence". Having Ret only be able to revive mislynches?

Since town would ideally never mislynch, this role would be negative utility.


That's not negative utility, that's "useless unless the town screws up". And really, if the town never mislynches, they're going to win on lynches alone; so being able to revive in a game with no mislynches is just "win more".

I don't understand the second half of what you just said sorry.

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:07 pm

Brilliand wrote:"useless unless the town screws up"

It's not how a role should be made, regardless of anything else.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:30 pm

I have called it parole rez. I do think we need to focus on a more machanical change to ret, so they can do more than just rez one person this one time. If we could make it essentially a gateway for the dead to interact with the town, that would be amazing.

For example, what if we merged medium and ret? The medium doesn't get to do much but hear dead speculate about stuff, but if they were able to actually give actions to the dead and hear their feedback, it would be WAYYYYY cooler.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:21 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:I don't understand the second half of what you just said sorry.


Well, I was saying that a town that lynches perfectly is going to win anyway, so whether a role is useless in that situation does nothing to affect the town's win chances in games with that role.

Admittedly I overstated my case there, by disregarding no-lynch days (which are the most basic way unskilled towns lose).
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:00 pm

From Retributionist Replacement: The Oracle

Time limit
You have x nights to revive a player, if you wait too long you can't revive that person

Much like Timed rez, this makes it easier for a witch/consort to shut down the ret.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:47 am

How about merging Medium with Ret? And staying with it being unique so that there isn't a mass confirmation with mediums and there is no confirmed role outside of the Town Leader role and the revived.

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:05 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:How about merging Medium with Ret? And staying with it being unique so that there isn't a mass confirmation with mediums and there is no confirmed role outside of the Town Leader role and the revived.


I like this idea, but in a sense it amounts to removing one of those two roles. (It almost amounts to "remove the Medium", since the Medium is so much weaker than the Ret. And removing the Medium role doesn't make the game harder for Town at all.)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:24 am

Brilliand wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:How about merging Medium with Ret? And staying with it being unique so that there isn't a mass confirmation with mediums and there is no confirmed role outside of the Town Leader role and the revived.


I like this idea, but in a sense it amounts to removing one of those two roles. (It almost amounts to "remove the Medium", since the Medium is so much weaker than the Ret. And removing the Medium role doesn't make the game harder for Town at all.)

So if the Retributionist gains the passive ability to talk to the dead, and can revive one dead player when you're alive as well as when they die, if they didn't revive while living, they can seance to one living person. I mean technically you'd be removing the Medium (name wise) but it's still in the game in the form of a stronger, more balanced and lovable Retributionist. It also allows the Town Leader role to be stronger without being completely unbalanced as well as keep the same reviving mechanic.

On-site FM Record: 5-0-3
Spoiler: Latest Town Game: SFM 70 - Citizen - Win
Latest Scum Game: 20H - Blackmailer - Loss
Latest Neutral Game: SFM72 - Failed Assassin - Win
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:40 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:I mean technically you'd be removing the Medium (name wise) but it's still in the game in the form of a stronger, more balanced and lovable Retributionist.


You'd also be removing the Medium in the sense of removing a nonunique role that sometimes gets claimed by evils, and limiting all forms of dead interaction to games that are "Retributionist" games instead of "Jailor" games. These properties seem less than desirable.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:56 pm

Once I have some free time I swear I will re-factor that entire first post.

Anyone, combining the med and ret will effect claim space less than you think. Sure, there are no random med claims for evils, but janitors might actually have an easier time claiming ret as they aren't going to want to out themselves day 1, giving them a great excuse for pushing off the claim. It is only in non-jani games evils will have a hard time claiming ret.

It also makes it a little easier in that they can eliminate them all more easily and it will only ever be one person's word against another. It changes the dynamic, but I believe it would be a good change.
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