Racketeer [Mafia Deception]

[dota2reporter]

Abilities: During the night, choose a Town Killing or Neutral Killing role.
[Vigilante, Veteran, Jailor, Serial Killer, Arsonist, Werewolf]

Attributes: The next day, the Mafia kill would appear to have been done by the role you've chosen.
You have 3 charges.
Death notes are turned off when using the ability.

Goal: Mafia Goal

Investigator Results: idk

just something which i randomly came up with, it isnt really aimed at ranked, more at all any or maybe custom

[dota2reporter]

This sound so dumb and awesome at the same time

WE can use this ability while noone is jailed or rb'ed to create confusion, amazing design

Lol I like the idea; improve the whole thread

thankk lad, wdym by improve the whole thread though

[dota2reporter]

yeah whatever it looks good

change the name to mobster or racketeer, these fit better to the role function

remove rb immunity and make this ability function same with janitor/forger (at night) ; when mafia performs a kill let this role replace the death announcement with something else.

because vigi and vet doesn't have a death note, death notes should be removed from entire maf team (NK needs a buff anyway)

sure i'll change that, but it already replaces the death announcement

[Soulshade55r]

Abilities: During the night, choose a Town Killing or Neutral Killing role.
[Vigilante, Veteran, Jailor, Serial Killer, Arsonist, Werewolf]

Attributes: The next day, the Mafia kill would appear to have been done by the role you've chosen.
You have 3 charges.
Death notes are turned off when using the ability.

Goal: Mafia Goal

Investigator Results: idk

just something which i randomly came up with, it isnt really aimed at ranked, more at all any or maybe custom

Think I made this idea somewhat ages ago but with infinite uses, pretty decent role idea and it counters vigilantes being contently confirmed

[Gooose26]

Death notifications mean very little in the game of mafia and I would argue that they should be removed entirely. Nevertheless, I think this role wouldn't hold up against more powerful mafia roles like Janitor and Consigliere. I don't think death notifications are really a good mechanic to play with.

[JacksonVirgo]

Death notifications mean very little in the game of mafia and I would argue that they should be removed entirely. Nevertheless, I think this role wouldn't hold up against more powerful mafia roles like Janitor and Consigliere. I don't think death notifications are really a good mechanic to play with.

Death notifications actually favors Town

This role is as powerful as Janitor

Agreed, it's as powerful as Janitor but more or less situational.
On the other side of the argument, this could be easy to read as Town.

[Brilliand]

Death notifications mean very little in the game of mafia and I would argue that they should be removed entirely. Nevertheless, I think this role wouldn't hold up against more powerful mafia roles like Janitor and Consigliere. I don't think death notifications are really a good mechanic to play with.

Death notifications actually favors Town

This role is as powerful as Janitor

Agreed, it's as powerful as Janitor but more or less situational.
On the other side of the argument, this could be easy to read as Town.

Yes, it's easy to read. I'd go as far as to compare it to Disguiser instead of to Janitor. It doesn't disguise town roles as "unknown", it disguises the Mafia (and only the Mafia) as other killing roles. This gives it only a limited ability to fool anyone as to what is really going on.

[JacksonVirgo]

If there's no Mafia kill when a Vigi hits, that would be sus if the Random Mafia's aren't known. Or did I misunderstand here?

[Gooose26]

Spoiler:

Death notifications actually favors Town

This role is as powerful as Janitor

Agreed, it's as powerful as Janitor but more or less situational.
On the other side of the argument, this could be easy to read as Town.

Can you guys give me a more in-depth explanation as to how this is so powerful, in your opinions? I simply don't see it.

Death notifications definitely favor town, but they don't do it in a way that I would consider balanced. Obviously, it's important to distinguish an in-game death and a player who just left the game early, but outside of this small exception, death notifications are just easy ways to mess with killers. For starters, it singles out the Neutral Killing for little to no reason, and there's nothing the NKs can do about it. That leads to many things, like improved investigative results, later in the game. Furthermore, it makes the Town Killing position 100% impossible to claim, which all around means that evil killers don't have a go-to claim in general. This is completely unfair because it comes as a basis to the game, rather than a player mechanic or anything along those lines.

This role does have the ability to give mafia killers some claimspace, but it's very hard to predict. I would sooner consider this role to be a Lookout/Tracker hardcounter before considering it to be a viable pick, even though a Lookout would be suspicious of the multiple visits on the TK kill given most scenarios. Also, I can't think of really any reason you would want to "disguise" yourself as an NK. NKs are evil, and they go through the same minority problems that mafia do, so you aren't really fixing the problem at hand by becoming an NK.

[JacksonVirgo]

Death notifications actually favors Town

This role is as powerful as Janitor

Agreed, it's as powerful as Janitor but more or less situational.
On the other side of the argument, this could be easy to read as Town.

Can you guys give me a more in-depth explanation as to how this is so powerful, in your opinions? I simply don't see it.

Death notifications definitely favor town, but they don't do it in a way that I would consider balanced. Obviously, it's important to distinguish an in-game death and a player who just left the game early, but outside of this small exception, death notifications are just easy ways to mess with killers. For starters, it singles out the Neutral Killing for little to no reason, and there's nothing the NKs can do about it. That leads to many things, like improved investigative results, later in the game. Furthermore, it makes the Town Killing position 100% impossible to claim, which all around means that evil killers don't have a go-to claim in general. This is completely unfair because it comes as a basis to the game, rather than a player mechanic or anything along those lines.

This role does have the ability to give mafia killers some claimspace, but it's very hard to predict. I would sooner consider this role to be a Lookout/Tracker hardcounter before considering it to be a viable pick, even though a Lookout would be suspicious of the multiple visits on the TK kill given most scenarios. Also, I can't think of really any reason you would want to "disguise" yourself as an NK. NKs are evil, and they go through the same minority problems that mafia do, so you aren't really fixing the problem at hand by becoming an NK.

I feel it's a powerful mechanic if done right, this role needs some tweaks (not sure exactly where) and it might be very powerful. But the strong mechanic here in question is quite situational in it's current form.

[Gooose26]

I feel it's a powerful mechanic if done right, this role needs some tweaks (not sure exactly where) and it might be very powerful. But the strong mechanic here in question is quite situational in it's current form.

Well, that goes back into the idea I was speaking about before. If death announcements is a broken system that should never have been implemented in the first place, then there's no way to make a balanced role that manipulates it. This was something that we could see with the old Disguiser, who completely destroyed the meta of the game because it manipulated a broken system, the last wills. Sure, it was great how the Disguiser could limit confirmability by destroying death roles and messing with names, but at the end of the day, it played with untouchable mechanics.

We could argue all day about the balanced pros that this role could bring to the table if we were to implement it, but we first need to come to an agreement on whether or not there are unbalanced cons getting in the way. Death announcements are broken, and therefore this concept is doomed to fail.

[JacksonVirgo]

I feel it's a powerful mechanic if done right, this role needs some tweaks (not sure exactly where) and it might be very powerful. But the strong mechanic here in question is quite situational in it's current form.

Well, that goes back into the idea I was speaking about before. If death announcements is a broken system that should never have been implemented in the first place, then there's no way to make a balanced role that manipulates it. This was something that we could see with the old Disguiser, who completely destroyed the meta of the game because it manipulated a broken system, the last wills. Sure, it was great how the Disguiser could limit confirmability by destroying death roles and messing with names, but at the end of the day, it played with untouchable mechanics.

We could argue all day about the balanced pros that this role could bring to the table if we were to implement it, but we first need to come to an agreement on whether or not there are unbalanced cons getting in the way. Death announcements are broken, and therefore this concept is doomed to fail.

I agree that a role shouldn't be able to manipulate this, reason why I suggested a global passive in which all kills be grouped into kill types such as {Vigilante, Veteran, Mafia faction kill} etc. But those who replied commented it being 'too complex' which I personally disagree with but yeah.

[Gooose26]

I agree that a role shouldn't be able to manipulate this, reason why I suggested a global passive in which all kills be grouped into kill types such as {Vigilante, Veteran, Mafia faction kill} etc. But those who replied commented it being 'too complex' which I personally disagree with but yeah.

"They appeared to have committed suicide." (Player leaves)
"They appeared to have been murdered." (Player dies)

If you go any further than this, then you've stepped into a dirty puddle full of town-buffing confirmability where killers have to be afraid to kill because Lookout and Tracker will instantly ruin their day for little to no fault of their own.

[JacksonVirgo]

I agree that a role shouldn't be able to manipulate this, reason why I suggested a global passive in which all kills be grouped into kill types such as {Vigilante, Veteran, Mafia faction kill} etc. But those who replied commented it being 'too complex' which I personally disagree with but yeah.

"They appeared to have committed suicide." (Player leaves)
"They appeared to have been murdered." (Player dies)

If you go any further than this, then you've stepped into a dirty puddle full of town-buffing confirmability where killers have to be afraid to kill because Lookout and Tracker will instantly ruin their day for little to no fault of their own.

Actually I love that, but I would rather have one more for rampaged attacks, something similar to:
"They appear to have been slaughtered." (for a rampaged kill)

Thoughts?

[Gooose26]

Spoiler:

I agree that a role shouldn't be able to manipulate this, reason why I suggested a global passive in which all kills be grouped into kill types such as {Vigilante, Veteran, Mafia faction kill} etc. But those who replied commented it being 'too complex' which I personally disagree with but yeah.

"They appeared to have committed suicide." (Player leaves)
"They appeared to have been murdered." (Player dies)

If you go any further than this, then you've stepped into a dirty puddle full of town-buffing confirmability where killers have to be afraid to kill because Lookout and Tracker will instantly ruin their day for little to no fault of their own.

Actually I love that, but I would rather have one more for rampaged attacks, something similar to:
"They appear to have been slaughtered." (for a rampaged kill)

Thoughts?

My thought is that rampage killing is extremely swingy as a whole. Anybody that can kill an assortment of people based on uncontrollable circumstances shouldn't even be considered.

I have considered that maybe it should be changed to a system where each killer would be given a special name or something of the sort so that each killer would be able to build their own claim separately from each other. The message would look something like this:

"Player A died last night. They were killed by Killer 1."
"Player B also died last night. They were killed by Killer 2."
"Player C also died last night. They were killed by Killer 2."

Then we could also have fun giving ourselves killer aliases as well.

[JacksonVirgo]

...
Actually I love that, but I would rather have one more for rampaged attacks, something similar to:
"They appear to have been slaughtered." (for a rampaged kill)

Thoughts?

My thought is that rampage killing is extremely swingy as a whole. Anybody that can kill an assortment of people based on uncontrollable circumstances shouldn't even be considered.

I have considered that maybe it should be changed to a system where each killer would be given a special name or something of the sort so that each killer would be able to build their own claim separately from each other. The message would look something like this:

"Player A died last night. They were killed by Killer 1."
"Player B also died last night. They were killed by Killer 2."
"Player C also died last night. They were killed by Killer 2."

Then we could also have fun giving ourselves killer aliases as well.

So you're saying a killer has a set alias that town gets to read? Or are you saying that evils can change them?
An SK can pretend to be a Werewolf for example and kill as a 'vigilante' on even day nights when needed. Could be some interesting gameplay

[Gooose26]

Spoiler:

...
Actually I love that, but I would rather have one more for rampaged attacks, something similar to:
"They appear to have been slaughtered." (for a rampaged kill)

Thoughts?

My thought is that rampage killing is extremely swingy as a whole. Anybody that can kill an assortment of people based on uncontrollable circumstances shouldn't even be considered.

I have considered that maybe it should be changed to a system where each killer would be given a special name or something of the sort so that each killer would be able to build their own claim separately from each other. The message would look something like this:

"Player A died last night. They were killed by Killer 1."
"Player B also died last night. They were killed by Killer 2."
"Player C also died last night. They were killed by Killer 2."

Then we could also have fun giving ourselves killer aliases as well.

So you're saying a killer has a set alias that town gets to read? Or are you saying that evils can change them?
An SK can pretend to be a Werewolf for example and kill as a 'vigilante' on even day nights when needed. Could be some interesting gameplay

Exactly, but anyways that's completely off-topic as it relates to the Racketeer. My point still stands about the current form of death announcements.