ZackTheMaf666 wrote:The bug ability is very useful. If a person fake claims rb’d, you will see that they weren’t. Same thing for transport. Plus, In a non-arsonist neutral game, it’s basically all you’ve got.
ZackTheMaf666 wrote:The other ability is unique and creative, but in neutral games, is practically useless. You get to see that the NK is an arsonist whenever after two nights you’ll know that. The NE is a witch while people are claiming controlled everyday. Good in theory, but I don’t think it would be good in game.
BasicFourLife wrote:Ew, no skill braindead change for the Spy. Thank u, next.
Brilliand wrote:It's pretty commonly acknowledged that the Spy needs some sort of rework. Here's an idea that I've mentioned a few times, but haven't previously made a thread about:
Make the Spy like a Tracker that targets a role slot instead of a player.
For example (ranked game):
- The spy selects the Mafioso. He can then tell who the Mafia attacked if they hit an immune, and thus catch the Neutral Killing.
- The spy selects Random Mafia 1. This just so happens to be a framer, so the Spy sees who the framer chose to frame, thus hard countering the framer.
- The spy spends his first three nights visiting the three Random Town. He now has evidence against anyone who fakeclaims in a Random Town slot.
- The spy spends most of an Arsonist game watching the Neutral Killing slot. He now knows exactly who is doused, and can use process of elimination to find the Arsonist.
This keeps the Spy doing something very similar to what it did before, and keeps it at roughly the same power level overall, but makes it much worse at screwing over the Mafia specifically.
There's really no reason to let the Spy keep his bug ability if this is implemented, since watching a confirmed townie will be enough to let him prove himself.
JacksonVirgo wrote:What would happen if a player dies? In a ranked role list, if multiple Town Protective roles exist and one dies, which slot would the dead person take? And if this role selects a role which has died, what happens? In addition, would this role visit whoever has the role they select?
Brilliand wrote:Players are assigned to role slots at the very beginning of the game. I'm guessing the game does this internally already, without providing a way to detect which slot has which player; this role would provide a way to deduce that kind of trivia.
Dead players do not visit. If the Spy selects a role slot that corresponds to a dead player, he gets the same feedback as if the player he chose is alive but didn't visit. (I suppose there would be an exception for the Jester, since jesters actually visit while dead?)
This version of the Spy does not visit. Any sort of role-targeting ability has to not generate a visit; otherwise it would be too powerful in combination with the Tracker.
JacksonVirgo wrote:Maybe it is too confirmable? Or at least harder to fake claim? It is fake-claimable for sure but you'd need to read Town just like claiming Lookout/Tracker. However, do you think there might be a meta where you check who the Jailor visits (jails) and if you get it right D2 you're confirmed and/or the jailed target and yourself are mafia.
Brilliand wrote:There might be? I'm hoping that watching who the RMs visit will be at least a defensible strat, allowing the Mafia to fake it in the same way they fake the current Spy.
Also, jailed players usually claim Jailed right away, and watching the Jailor is a waste of this role's investigative powers, so I don't see that meta working very well (especially since the Mafia will sometimes discover who is jailed by randomly visiting the jailed person).
MysticMismagius wrote:How would this work in All Any? This role seems to be very reliant on the role list, which AA doesn't really have.
Brilliand wrote:In order to fix the All Any issue, possibly when checking a role slot that can roll in multiple factions (an Any slot or one of the Neutral slots), the Role Tracker should be told which faction that slot represents. Roles like Jester, Executioner, Survivor, etc. would show up as "not a faction". I'd also treat Amnesiac as "not a faction", even after remembering because this is about the rolelist, but that could go either way.
JacksonVirgo wrote:This seems like an elegantish workaround. Although if Amnesiac continues at 'Not a faction' after remembering, would it be the same for being converted by a Vampire? I mean I assume so
Mystoc wrote:the reworks its alright but too simple cause it just gives the rolelist each night based on the feedback they saw that night
also being able to select random town is just super OP, like if tp or tk dies and you have selected all of random town and know none of the random town is tp or TK which is the first 3 you should always pick, you auto know instantly that any person claiming tp or tk is isnta lying,
its a good rework the meta gaming around it just to obv, this would also let spy confrim themselves again since he can give exact results the TI role slot got day 2 if he selects TI the first night and whispers it to the jailor which the TI would whisper to jailor as well, or you could just do it for jailor and get his results of who he jailed n1
yes i know the jailor meta sucks and the main ideas of these forums are ways to stop it but thats what would happen even without jailor spy could confirm self day 2 but would have to out hes spy
its a very cool idea in theory and fits the lore of a spy but it doesnt work
Brilliand wrote:It's pretty commonly acknowledged that the Spy needs some sort of rework.
PatrykSzczescie wrote:Omitting the fact, that this role is really badly designed, an overpowered TI similar to Consig and stronger than Sheriff that not only can determine the alignment of checked person, but also confirm which slot it takes making chain reaction to confirm more roles with a single check...
PatrykSzczescie wrote:I'm the most concerned about this:Brilliand wrote:It's pretty commonly acknowledged that the Spy needs some sort of rework.
I guess no skilled player complained about spy being badly designed role, but if it gets rework the way Brilliand wants it to be done, they'll come and scream crazy such as they're screaming to suggested Medium and Invest rework.
Brilliand wrote:I think you misread the OP. It doesn't check a person, only a slot. It doesn't actually know which person it checked.
By the time I made this thread, I had seen so many threads enumerating the problems with Spy that I was tired of seeing them repeated. And I'm still not going to repeat them here. Go argue this point somewhere else.
PatrykSzczescie wrote:I've seen players suggesting reworking like half of roles so precising Spy as "common acknowledged" is a wrong term.
ABadWord wrote:Would spy still have the mafia tracking feature, or do they only have the tracking power?
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