Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Should this role be added?

Yes, it is balanced.
3
43%
No. (Please explain why!)
4
57%
 
Total votes : 7

Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Postby ImposterK » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:21 am

Occultist (Neutral Killing)
A malevolent sorcerer who will sacrifice anyone to his God.

Abilities:
-Choose players to sacrifice at night. You will need assistance from 1 Disciple to sacrifice 1 player, but will need 2 Disciples for each additional player.
-At the end of the night, if you do not sacrifice anyone, you will gain 2 Disciples.

Attributes:
-None

Special Attributes:
Attack: Powerful
Defense: Basic
-Bite Immune
-Detection Immune

Other Information:
-If you are controlled by a Witch, you will attack the Witch's target only if you have at least 1 Disciple to use. If you don't have any Disciples, you will stay at home and gain 2 Disciples that night.

Goal:
-Sacrifice everyone who will not worship your God.

Wins with:
Occultist
Survivor
Witch

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent.
Investigator: Your target could be a Medium, Janitor, Retributionist, Necromancer, Trapper, or Occultist.
Consigliere: Your target is involved with satanic rituals. They must be the Occultist.

Notifications:
"You've decided to obtain Disciples tonight."
"You have decided to sacrifice Player1 tonight."
"You currently have 2 Disciples"
(Message given at the start of each night.)
"You were sacrificed by an Occultist!"

Achievements:
Grand Ritual: Attack 5 people in 1 night.
Bloodlust For Evils: Kill at least 3 non-town roles in 1 game.

Changelog:
8/9/19 - Added investigative results and removed unnecessary mechanics.
8/30/19 - Added detection immunity, goal/win conditions, achievements, and a poll.
Last edited by ImposterK on Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:39 pm

So a KPN of 1.5, minus 0.5 (for one night) each time a Disciple dies.

It kills every night (barring the first), and doesn't seem particularly limited in who it kills, so I think I can fairly call it a buffed Serial Killer.

...and the multitude of extra choices requiring extra buttons is a hard sell. (Besides which, you haven't explained what happens when a Witch controls this role.)
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Re: Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Postby ImposterK » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:05 pm

I don't feel like you fully understand the role.
Brilliand wrote:So a KPN of 1.5, minus 0.5 (for one night) each time a Disciple dies.
You cannot kill and influence the same night. And once a Disciple is used, they are no longer a Disciple.

Its KPN depends on if the Occultist decides to get more Disciples instead of killing. It can play safe by killing as soon as it gets Disciples which will result in a lower KPN. The Occultist can also play risky by stacking up Disciples which will result them in having a higher KPN but gives the Town a bigger chance of finding them.
Brilliand wrote:It kills every night (barring the first), and doesn't seem particularly limited in who it kills, so I think I can fairly call it a buffed Serial Killer.
It does not kill every night. You need at least 1 Disciple to kill.
Brilliand wrote:and the multitude of extra choices requiring extra buttons is a hard sell.
I had another idea (after posting the thread) to make it less confusing where you would pick your Disciples during the day with the sun icon (instead of at night) and if you did that, you wouldn't be able to do anything at night. This might make it less confusing. What do you think?
Brilliand wrote: (Besides which, you haven't explained what happens when a Witch controls this role.)
Currently, if a Witch controls an Occultist, the Occultist will influence the Witch's target. If I decide to change the influencing mechanic so the Occultist influences players during the day, I guess the Witch would have no effect?

What are your thoughts now? Is there anything that confuses you?
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Re: Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:20 pm

ImposterK wrote:You cannot kill and influence the same night.


Ooh, I did misread that. That changes things.

ImposterK wrote:Its KPN depends on if the Occultist decides to get more Disciples instead of killing. It can play safe by killing as soon as it gets Disciples which will result in a lower KPN. The Occultist can also play risky by stacking up Disciples which will result them in having a higher KPN but gives the Town a bigger chance of finding them.


So... a KPN of 0.66 in "serial killer mode", or the same KPN as an Arsonist in "arsonist mode" (but with an inability to wipe the town in one burst).

I suspect that this hybrid will be underpowered compared to either of the extremes.

ImposterK wrote:
Brilliand wrote:and the multitude of extra choices requiring extra buttons is a hard sell.
I had another idea (after posting the thread) to make it less confusing where you would pick your Disciples during the day with the sun icon (instead of at night) and if you did that, you wouldn't be able to do anything at night. This might make it less confusing. What do you think?


I think I'm not quite happy with his day and night actions being an "either/or" thing.

Also, it doesn't entirely solve the complexity problem: He's still either picking two people during the day... or picking one or more people to kill at night, while also selecting specific disciples to "use up" for the attack, while making sure the number of disciples that he uses matches the number he needs for his attack. (Unless he's required to use up all disciples on any night he attacks? I hope not.)

ImposterK wrote:
Brilliand wrote: (Besides which, you haven't explained what happens when a Witch controls this role.)
Currently, if a Witch controls an Occultist, the Occultist will influence the Witch's target. If I decide to change the influencing mechanic so the Occultist influences players during the day, I guess the Witch would have no effect?


Well, the trouble is that the Occultist targets multiple people (no matter which action he's taking), while the Witch can only send him to one target. Would he be limited to a single influence on nights the witch controls him?

Having him take a weaker action when controlled isn't very satisfying, but neither is making him control immune.

-----

To reduce the complexity of the choices needed when playing this role, I'd exchange the multi-targeting for some form of infectiousness. Example: "Each night, you can target one player. If that player is not a disciple, they will become a disciple, and also make a disciple of whoever they visit that night; if they are already a disciple, then they will kill whoever they visit that night (instead of their regular ability), and also kill themselves at the end of the night. 'Disciple' status will continue to spread to any player visited by your disciples each night." (Maybe too Pestilence-like in that form, though.)
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Re: Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Postby ImposterK » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:49 am

Brilliand wrote:So... a KPN of 0.66 in "serial killer mode", or the same KPN as an Arsonist in "arsonist mode" (but with an inability to wipe the town in one burst).

I suspect that this hybrid will be underpowered compared to either of the extremes.
Yep, it is different to Arsonist though. If I were to compare it to Arsonist, this is what it would be: You are able to change who you have doused, and you can ignite certain people and not others.
Brilliand wrote:I think I'm not quite happy with his day and night actions being an "either/or" thing.

Also, it doesn't entirely solve the complexity problem: He's still either picking two people during the day... or picking one or more people to kill at night, while also selecting specific disciples to "use up" for the attack, while making sure the number of disciples that he uses matches the number he needs for his attack. (Unless he's required to use up all disciples on any night he attacks? I hope not.)
I see what you mean, and no, it wouldn't use all the Disciples. I had another idea I'll explain later.
Brilliand wrote:
ImposterK wrote:
Brilliand wrote: (Besides which, you haven't explained what happens when a Witch controls this role.)
Currently, if a Witch controls an Occultist, the Occultist will influence the Witch's target. If I decide to change the influencing mechanic so the Occultist influences players during the day, I guess the Witch would have no effect?


Well, the trouble is that the Occultist targets multiple people (no matter which action he's taking), while the Witch can only send him to one target. Would he be limited to a single influence on nights the witch controls him?

Having him take a weaker action when controlled isn't very satisfying, but neither is making him control immune.
Yes, he would only have a single influence. Maybe he would kill the Witch's target but only if he had the Disciple to do so? I'll explain what happens with the Witch in my other idea soon.
Brilliand wrote:To reduce the complexity of the choices needed when playing this role, I'd exchange the multi-targeting for some form of infectiousness. Example: "Each night, you can target one player. If that player is not a disciple, they will become a disciple, and also make a disciple of whoever they visit that night; if they are already a disciple, then they will kill whoever they visit that night (instead of their regular ability), and also kill themselves at the end of the night. 'Disciple' status will continue to spread to any player visited by your disciples each night." (Maybe too Pestilence-like in that form, though.)
I really like this idea. There are a few concerns I have and things I would change from your suggestion though, I'll PM you. I also really like this new idea I have now to make it less complex. Here it is:

Maybe I could scrap the "influence players into becoming your Disciples" part of the role since it doesn't really matter who is influenced (influenced players are still influence even after they die.) Instead, the Occultist will be given 2 charges (I can call the charges Disciples for lore purposes.) at the end of each night. If they decide to kill at night, they will not be given any charges. If the Occultist is controlled by a Witch, they will attack the Witch's target only if they have the charge to do so. (Still 1 charge for 1 kill but 2 additional charges for each additional kill.)
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Re: Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Postby ImposterK » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:53 pm

Just wanted to see if anyone else could give feedback for this role. Thanks!
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Re: Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Postby efebozkurt2 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:11 pm

Serial Killer
One night waiting
Cool name
Powerful attack
Immunities
---------------+
Occultist
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Re: Occultist (Neutral Killing)

Postby ImposterK » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:36 pm

efebozkurt2 wrote:Serial Killer
One night waiting
Cool name
Powerful attack
Immunities
---------------+
Occultist

If you want to play like a Serial Killer, your KPN will be 0.66 so that wouldn't be the smartest choice. That also isn't the only way to play since you are able to get more than 1 kill each night, it just costs more to do so. The Powerful Attack and Detection Immunity are small additions to make it easier for the Occultist to win.
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