Rivelle wrote:Okay I have a new idea!
(It's similar to the ones I've posted before, but better :') I think)
Retributionist Rework:
The retributionist can pray for one player, each night, including themselves. (Unlimited prays)
If one of the prayed targets die, their role is cleaned.
The retributionist can revive one player they prayed for- including evils. (Cannot revive unique town roles)
The retributionist can revive even if dead.
Medium nerf:
Cannot speak to the dead (can still receive messages)
(Since this would make the medium underpowered, I think medium should get a buff in another way)
(Maybe the seance could work through day and it goes to everyone?)
The reason for this nerf is so the dead can't confirm mediums.
Examples of retributionist plays:
#1: Comeback
Retributionist prays for a Sheriff on n4.
On day 7, only the godfather and lookout remain. But the sheriff was revived- therefore town can win!
#2: Accidental Janitor
Retributionist prays for literally everyone
All of the roles in the graveyard are cleaned and whoops... evils have an easy time of claiming now
#3: Blind Sided
Retributionist is reviving a member of the mafia because they think they're a townie.
#4: Second Chance
Retributionist dies n1, but revives themselves the next day because they prayed for themself before dying.
Brilliand wrote:Kirize12 wrote:Amnesiac is also a swingy role and should probably be reworked into Double.
Hadn't heard of Double before, but now that I've found it...
I think that role comes unfortunately close to simply being "player not appearing in this game." It kills one person; one person is now out of the game; and the rolelist is now exactly as it was before except with the Double gone. The *player* who is gone isn't the same player who was playing Double, but that hardly matters.Kirize12 wrote:Personally I think Trauma Patient is a bit less swingy than Town Necro.
I'm worried about Trauma Patient being weaker than just having another copy of another role ingame from the start (by the number of nights it takes for someone to die, plus one night to remember). The Town Necro compensates for this by having the flexibility to pick a different role every night, once he gets going. More swingy, probably, but it needs the extra strength to stay competitive with the other town roles.
UzayAltay wrote:My Suggestion :
Revived Player Will be voteless , wont count at majority , cant whisper or whispered to , and cant be healed by Doctor.
This only leaves retri with problem mediums would be confirmed , which should be solved via A medium rework IMO .
This will encourage Another way of playing : keep Revive until an important role die . For example , reviving Mayor wont Do anything Except confirming ret/Med . So , This rework has The potential broke " revive n2 " Meta .Retris Will still revive If there is A Med claim ( until Med is reworked ) , or they are Under pressure , but it Will be much less .
UzayAltay wrote:Brilliand wrote:Kirize12 wrote:Amnesiac is also a swingy role and should probably be reworked into Double.
Hadn't heard of Double before, but now that I've found it...
I think that role comes unfortunately close to simply being "player not appearing in this game." It kills one person; one person is now out of the game; and the rolelist is now exactly as it was before except with the Double gone. The *player* who is gone isn't the same player who was playing Double, but that hardly matters.Kirize12 wrote:Personally I think Trauma Patient is a bit less swingy than Town Necro.
I'm worried about Trauma Patient being weaker than just having another copy of another role ingame from the start (by the number of nights it takes for someone to die, plus one night to remember). The Town Necro compensates for this by having the flexibility to pick a different role every night, once he gets going. More swingy, probably, but it needs the extra strength to stay competitive with the other town roles.
Yes , double can be played Like that ( shoot A Player which wont protected night 1 ) , but I am Pretty sure not All players Will Do that , even though most of time We Will see A Night 1 double kill and Game Will continue .
We Will see players claim surv as double and try joining winning faction later .
We Will see players hesitant to shoot night 1 with afraid Another double can attack there as well ( If two double attack Same target Same night , they die and lose )
We Will see players that want to join scum faction , so Wait until A scum is outed on a TvS interaction and Than shot scum If town is lynched .
We Will see players that Wait until A faction is winning .
Even though most of time that wont happen , these can happen , and it is much More balanced Than amnesiac , even though not " 0 swing "
UzayAltay wrote:Can you explain why my idea is worse than other idea you mention? I saw that idea, but it is too dependent on what roles dies early, which retri dont have control. If , for example, bg,Escort, veteran die early, it is good, but what if jailor, mayor, medium dies early? You are probably lynched at close time. My idea gives retri more option, they can play it like early revive and become confirmed, or risk Dying and wait for a bigger chance. It can also used with " full night for revive " nerf, which make retri much strategic.
UzayAltay wrote:About double, first, vigilante killing same scum give double no problem. ( double only fails if their target survive, or another DOUBLE shot same target. Jailor can be a problem but not much, because Bullet wont wasted.
Second, at that case it Swing less than amnesiac. At amnesiac, Lynch is used, at double Lynch isnt used and town can Lynch another evil.
And if "People not appearing in game " is a problem, Just add "you cant shoot night 1" and problem solved.
UzayAltay wrote:About double , yes , I misremembered The sentence as " You lose If You lose your bullet " or sth Like that .Jailor is A problem for double Like You Said . People not appearing in Game isnt A problem at night 2 shot : they have 1 night and 1 Day time to play , and even n1 Kills are worse Than that . Also If they shot A non-claimer ( say Invest ) at there , it Result 2 night of information being Lost for town , which can change The Game .
UzayAltay wrote:Light Side necromancer Will Almost always lynched Unless Roles dies early can confirm they easily .
UzayAltay wrote:I know confirmability is bad , and If We want to Get rid of from it Completely , just Replace it with Trauma Patient .
StrahmDude wrote:I think we should also avoid the trauma patient solution. It is just an auto town amnesiac and does nothing to let the dead still interact which is what this role is all about. If this role is done well, it will make the game more fun for the living and the dead, otherwise it will either break the game or be boring as hell.
If it isn't obvious, I really don't like the trama patient idea.
Kirize12 wrote:You can say whatever you like about Trauma Patient but it's the only one that doesn't have some form of flaw, that's not an opinion that's a fact.
Brilliand wrote:Kirize12 wrote:You can say whatever you like about Trauma Patient but it's the only one that doesn't have some form of flaw, that's not an opinion that's a fact.
It has the flaw of being strictly underpowered when rolled in a Random Town slot. That's pretty serious imo.
By "strictly underpowered" I mean that it isn't underpowered merely because the other roles are stronger, it's underpowered because it takes whatever strength the other roles have and automatically gives less than that.
Kirize12 wrote:Brilliand wrote:Kirize12 wrote:You can say whatever you like about Trauma Patient but it's the only one that doesn't have some form of flaw, that's not an opinion that's a fact.
It has the flaw of being strictly underpowered when rolled in a Random Town slot. That's pretty serious imo.
By "strictly underpowered" I mean that it isn't underpowered merely because the other roles are stronger, it's underpowered because it takes whatever strength the other roles have and automatically gives less than that.
If anything, Trauma Patient comes back stronger. Imagine scum PR-hunt the investigative and kill them, and now the invest is back and could be literally anyone.
Brilliand wrote:Kirize12 wrote:Brilliand wrote:Kirize12 wrote:You can say whatever you like about Trauma Patient but it's the only one that doesn't have some form of flaw, that's not an opinion that's a fact.
It has the flaw of being strictly underpowered when rolled in a Random Town slot. That's pretty serious imo.
By "strictly underpowered" I mean that it isn't underpowered merely because the other roles are stronger, it's underpowered because it takes whatever strength the other roles have and automatically gives less than that.
If anything, Trauma Patient comes back stronger. Imagine scum PR-hunt the investigative and kill them, and now the invest is back and could be literally anyone.
It's still worse than if there was a second invest from the start who "could be literally everyone" except also has a few extra nights of info from when they were keeping quiet.
Except, invests seldom keep quiet. Why? Because they help the town more when they don't. Vocal invest > quiet invest > Trauma Patient turned invest.
Brilliand wrote:UzayAltay wrote:About double , yes , I misremembered The sentence as " You lose If You lose your bullet " or sth Like that .Jailor is A problem for double Like You Said . People not appearing in Game isnt A problem at night 2 shot : they have 1 night and 1 Day time to play , and even n1 Kills are worse Than that . Also If they shot A non-claimer ( say Invest ) at there , it Result 2 night of information being Lost for town , which can change The Game .
"Person not appearing in this game" means: The game plays out essentially the same as if the game was a 14-player game from the start, without the Double in it. A 14-player game is no less balanced than a 15-player game, but if we wanted Town of Salem to have 14-player games sometimes (we don't), we should just make it that way, not add roles that effectively reduce the game to 14 players indirectly.
It doesn't matter exactly how much time the Double and the Double-killed player get individually, they problem is that they add up to one player from the perspective of everyone else. (Except for the potential to lose some nights of TI info or shuffle an evil to a different location, both of which are anti-town effects.))
Kirize12 wrote:StrahmDude wrote:I think we should also avoid the trauma patient solution. It is just an auto town amnesiac and does nothing to let the dead still interact which is what this role is all about. If this role is done well, it will make the game more fun for the living and the dead, otherwise it will either break the game or be boring as hell.
If it isn't obvious, I really don't like the trama patient idea.
The point isn't to allow the dead to still interact with the living, the point is to subvert the power of the mafia kill retroactively. Dead interacting with the living is accomplished through Medium, and while it's a good mechanic it 's not good if we need to sacrifice balance to do it.
You can say whatever you like about Trauma Patient but it's the only one that doesn't have some form of flaw, that's not an opinion that's a fact.
Kirize12 wrote:but if there isn't, then trauma patient could be that OR anything else, depending on what the town needs.
StrahmDude wrote:Part of the problem with Ret is it is a retroactive BG, or like making the game a 16 player game.
Brilliand wrote:StrahmDude wrote:Part of the problem with Ret is it is a retroactive BG, or like making the game a 16 player game.
Hmm, I disagree with this assessment. Ret is a retroactive Doctor, with the power to confirm its target and any Mediums as side benefits.
It doesn't (effectively) increase the player count, because the revived player doesn't overlap with the player that died before. Killed player+revived player add up to one player.
Even being a single-use retroactive doctor isn't that big a problem really, it's all the confirming that happens as a result of the revive that's the problem. If, say, the Retributionist had the single-use power "give every player in the game Powerful defense for one night", that would produce a similar net result to the current Retributionist, without all the confirming.
Kirize12 wrote:Rets resurrect ASAP because of the metagame making it the best option. This is also not good for gameplay or meta.
Trauma Patient, having a less powerful ability that does not confirm itself, has more versatility and can wait since the effects of it being killed are negligible in itself.
JacksonVirgo wrote:Okay, I was too lazy to check through all the posts in this thread but I thought I'd offer a possible option. Have retri unable to revive lynched players, makes mafia want to mislynch certain people over just killing them at night. Might make Mafia need to have a more strategic play. Just a random thought.
Also stops people saying "Guilty, if inno retri revive them"
Brilliand wrote:That's a new one. I think it isn't enough of a nerf, but it won't be the smallest nerf on the list.
I think there are some entries on the list that implicitly requires this... such as "Blood Bound", which requires that the ret revive someone whose killer is still alive (so there has to be a killer).
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