Retri re-work options

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby DrCroaker » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:43 pm

I like the simple retri rework, that retri selects a target, and the next day that person is able to vote only, and returns to the graveyard the next day.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:32 pm

StrahmDude wrote:idea added, anything you want to add?


I notice that in the version you added, you allow the retri to potentially sacrifice an evil to revive a townie. I actually like that better than Rivelle's version, but fyi, it isn't how he formulated it.

DrCroaker wrote:I like the simple retri rework, that retri selects a target, and the next day that person is able to vote only, and returns to the graveyard the next day.


Far too weak. One extra vote for town? Why not just be a Mayor instead of a Ret?

There is the potential ability to communicate messages to the town by voting in agreed-upon ways, but you clearly don't want that to be possible or you'd have allowed talking.

Otherwise this is the Channeler idea, already listed.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Rivelle » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:39 am

Brilliand wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:idea added, anything you want to add?


I notice that in the version you added, you allow the retri to potentially sacrifice an evil to revive a townie. I actually like that better than Rivelle's version, but fyi, it isn't how he formulated it.


Ah well the reason why it's like that is because I feel that it's pretty overpowered, you revive someone and at the same time, you kill an evil.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:55 am

Rivelle wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:idea added, anything you want to add?


I notice that in the version you added, you allow the retri to potentially sacrifice an evil to revive a townie. I actually like that better than Rivelle's version, but fyi, it isn't how he formulated it.


Ah well the reason why it's like that is because I feel that it's pretty overpowered, you revive someone and at the same time, you kill an evil.


Though that is exactly what the Transporter does.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StlnSP » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:28 am

just make retributionist an amnesiac for town. boom. no more plus votes, no more med confirming, still the same town powers.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Valkyrie1 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:10 pm

I honestly don't see a great way to rebalance retributionist. But something definitely needs to change. I personally would just scrap ret from the game. Then maybe hold a contest to get a new role in the game. Ret, as it is, is just way too OP.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Rivelle » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:44 pm

The Retributionist can cast a spell on one player each day. Afterwards, if the player dies (any night following the visit) they become cleaned, they cnnot communicate with the dead or medium. When the Retributionist dies, they can choose to revive any of the players they cleaned (but they can only revive one player). After a player is revived, the cleaned roles and wills will remain cleaned, but they can talk to the dead and medium.

Idea #2:
Idea #1 but they can remove the spell by visiting the player again.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:58 pm

Brilliand wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:idea added, anything you want to add?


I notice that in the version you added, you allow the retri to potentially sacrifice an evil to revive a townie. I actually like that better than Rivelle's version, but fyi, it isn't how he formulated it.


Thank you! My bad for missing that.

StlnSP wrote:just make retributionist an amnesiac for town. boom. no more plus votes, no more med confirming, still the same town powers.

I really don't like this idea because it kills the fun thing that the ret adds, the ability for the dead to still interact with the game.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:29 pm

StrahmDude wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:idea added, anything you want to add?


I notice that in the version you added, you allow the retri to potentially sacrifice an evil to revive a townie. I actually like that better than Rivelle's version, but fyi, it isn't how he formulated it.


Thank you! My bad for missing that.

StlnSP wrote:just make retributionist an amnesiac for town. boom. no more plus votes, no more med confirming, still the same town powers.

I really don't like this idea because it kills the fun thing that the ret adds, the ability for the dead to still interact with the game.

But this ability is stressing out TOS.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:55 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:idea added, anything you want to add?


I notice that in the version you added, you allow the retri to potentially sacrifice an evil to revive a townie. I actually like that better than Rivelle's version, but fyi, it isn't how he formulated it.


Thank you! My bad for missing that.

StlnSP wrote:just make retributionist an amnesiac for town. boom. no more plus votes, no more med confirming, still the same town powers.

I really don't like this idea because it kills the fun thing that the ret adds, the ability for the dead to still interact with the game.

But this ability is stressing out TOS.

What do you mean by it's stressing out TOS.
If you mean it's overpowered and hard to balance because it's an anti-kill, I won't deny it.

The ret role is like a retroactive TP role that is completely safe to activate its effect but can only do it once. Retroactive safety is what makes it so powerful. To fix this, we either have to make it less than a TP in effectiveness or nurf the retroactive safety portion.

Will it be easy to balance? No. Will it be worth it? Yes. Letting dead interact is always worth it to keep that part of the game from being awfully boring.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StlnSP » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:54 am

Spoiler:
StrahmDude wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:idea added, anything you want to add?


I notice that in the version you added, you allow the retri to potentially sacrifice an evil to revive a townie. I actually like that better than Rivelle's version, but fyi, it isn't how he formulated it.


Thank you! My bad for missing that.

StlnSP wrote:just make retributionist an amnesiac for town. boom. no more plus votes, no more med confirming, still the same town powers.

I really don't like this idea because it kills the fun thing that the ret adds, the ability for the dead to still interact with the game.

But this ability is stressing out TOS.

What do you mean by it's stressing out TOS.
If you mean it's overpowered and hard to balance because it's an anti-kill, I won't deny it.

The ret role is like a retroactive TP role that is completely safe to activate its effect but can only do it once. Retroactive safety is what makes it so powerful. To fix this, we either have to make it less than a TP in effectiveness or nurf the retroactive safety portion.

Will it be easy to balance? No. Will it be worth it? Yes. Letting dead interact is always worth it to keep that part of the game from being awfully boring.


There's a medium for letting the dead interact in the game.

i'd agree that retroactive safety is one of the obvious problems, but the bigger problem for rets is that they make a network of confirmed townies easily. and that's not even counting any other easily confirmable/confirmed roles that people may get in their games. The ressed also have all the knowledge of the dead by themselves [dead TI results, escort rb, etc.]. this therefore makes the fakeclaiming spots even narrower.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:26 pm

StlnSP wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:
StlnSP wrote:just make retributionist an amnesiac for town. boom. no more plus votes, no more med confirming, still the same town powers.

I really don't like this idea because it kills the fun thing that the ret adds, the ability for the dead to still interact with the game.

But this ability is stressing out TOS.

What do you mean by it's stressing out TOS.
If you mean it's overpowered and hard to balance because it's an anti-kill, I won't deny it.

The ret role is like a retroactive TP role that is completely safe to activate its effect but can only do it once. Retroactive safety is what makes it so powerful. To fix this, we either have to make it less than a TP in effectiveness or nurf the retroactive safety portion.

Will it be easy to balance? No. Will it be worth it? Yes. Letting dead interact is always worth it to keep that part of the game from being awfully boring.


There's a medium for letting the dead interact in the game.

i'd agree that retroactive safety is one of the obvious problems, but the bigger problem for rets is that they make a network of confirmed townies easily. and that's not even counting any other easily confirmable/confirmed roles that people may get in their games. The ressed also have all the knowledge of the dead by themselves [dead TI results, escort rb, etc.]. this therefore makes the fakeclaiming spots even narrower.


I see what you mean. What might be nice is if mediums get the ability to read the up to date wills of the dead, to alleviate the problem of people leaving, but still give them the ability to communicate with the medium while getting ride of the confirmation power the ret has. There are already several icons that deal with the dead bringing up the knowledge of their fellows, like the light side necromancer suggestion. We might want to make it so they can't talk (aka are effectively blackmailed) if we use the buffed version. That way they can be, at most, inferior mediums.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:35 pm

A blackmailed person can still communicate by using their votes to play 20 questions, if need be. I don't think "can't talk, can only vote" suggestions are much use.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:39 am

Dead interaction is good, but it should be done in ways that do not confirm roles.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:09 am

...now I have the idea of... actually this is light-side necromancer all over again.

Possibly the light-side necromancer should give the "revived" person multiple uses of their ability, instead of just using them for one night like a Necromancer. Wouldn't want to have an unkillable Escort active for the rest of the game, though... so it would need to have some limit. Perhaps each night the Retributionist can give *one* dead player the ability to use their ability once, at a time of their choosing? But then the Retributionist doesn't get the feedback from their abilities (only the dead players do), so they'd need to feed the info to a Medium or a ret'd Vigilante in order for town to benefit from it.

As I envision it, the uses granted by the ret would be cumulative, so if he picks the dead Sheriff three nights in a row, the dead sheriff can then spend the next three nights checking three people and telling the medium about each result.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:42 pm

I don't like the idea of the ret depending on the medium to be super useful, but if we make it so the ret knows then the medium CAN confirm themselves....

I think it is best to not give the ret feedback, thus making the ret have to pick roles that can use abilities. Maybe make the jailor an unstoppable attack version of the vig?
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:56 am

StrahmDude wrote:I don't like the idea of the ret depending on the medium to be super useful, but if we make it so the ret knows then the medium CAN confirm themselves....

I think it is best to not give the ret feedback, thus making the ret have to pick roles that can use abilities. Maybe make the jailor an unstoppable attack version of the vig?


The ret would be OK picking investigative roles if he plans to pick a vig/jailor later (since the investigative roles can tell the dead vig/jailor things).

I imagine the ret'd Jailor being able to do his entire role, with the exception of speaking. As in, the person he picks is jailed for the night, and can tell the Jailor things, but the dead Jailor can't talk back; he just has to silently decide whether to execute. (And this decision is completely silent - there's no "decided to execute you" message, only the "You have been executed" message if that was the Jailor's final decision.) - Probably the Jailor would be able to discuss the situation with the other dead while he's listening to the jailed person talk.

In my formulation, the ret'd roles can't use their ability the same night the Ret picks them - they would instead get a "stored use" that they could use on some future night (or day, in the case of the Jailor).
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby EgyptFalcon » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:51 pm

Dropah wrote:for everyone who hasnt read this, it is bullshit idea, waste of our time tbh


K you're just a troll and probably gamethrow because you think it's funny. Don't need you here.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:19 pm

Dropah wrote:for everyone who hasnt read this, it is bullshit idea, waste of our time tbh

Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby dota2reporter » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:33 am

Dropah wrote:for everyone who hasnt read this, it is bullshit idea, waste of our time tbh

i like wasting time
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:08 pm

I take it they deleted their post? Also,

Brilliand wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:I don't like the idea of the ret depending on the medium to be super useful, but if we make it so the ret knows then the medium CAN confirm themselves....

I think it is best to not give the ret feedback, thus making the ret have to pick roles that can use abilities. Maybe make the jailor an unstoppable attack version of the vig?


The ret would be OK picking investigative roles if he plans to pick a vig/jailor later (since the investigative roles can tell the dead vig/jailor things).

I imagine the ret'd Jailor being able to do his entire role, with the exception of speaking. As in, the person he picks is jailed for the night, and can tell the Jailor things, but the dead Jailor can't talk back; he just has to silently decide whether to execute. (And this decision is completely silent - there's no "decided to execute you" message, only the "You have been executed" message if that was the Jailor's final decision.) - Probably the Jailor would be able to discuss the situation with the other dead while he's listening to the jailed person talk.

In my formulation, the ret'd roles can't use their ability the same night the Ret picks them - they would instead get a "stored use" that they could use on some future night (or day, in the case of the Jailor).

I was thinking that originally the ret would pick someone during the day, but I do like the idea of letting the dead decide when to use it as it gives the more of a chance to interact with the game. I do think we should do something to make the ret not conditionally good based on the medium in order to keep the two roles more balanced. Like maybe only the ret sees the result of their actions? If a sheriff investigates someone, only the ret knows. That way they can't use that info to confirm the ret to the medium. thiughts?
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:20 pm

StrahmDude wrote:I take it they deleted their post?


Moderator got them. Posts like that should be quietly reported, not replied to.

StrahmDude wrote:I was thinking that originally the ret would pick someone during the day, but I do like the idea of letting the dead decide when to use it as it gives the more of a chance to interact with the game. I do think we should do something to make the ret not conditionally good based on the medium in order to keep the two roles more balanced. Like maybe only the ret sees the result of their actions? If a sheriff investigates someone, only the ret knows. That way they can't use that info to confirm the ret to the medium. thiughts?


I prefer the idea of having dead Investigatives share their info with the other dead, so the dead have their own conversation in which they figure out all the evils.

This doesn't make the Ret dependent on the Medium at all - it makes the Ret a little better with a Medium, true, but most of the Ret's job can be accomplished by empowering a dead Vigilante or Bodyguard, and hoping they benefit from whatever info the dead TIs got.

This Ret with a Medium would still have less synergy than a Medium with a second Medium.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:26 pm

StrahmDude wrote:I was thinking that originally the ret would pick someone during the day, but I do like the idea of letting the dead decide when to use it as it gives the more of a chance to interact with the game. I do think we should do something to make the ret not conditionally good based on the medium in order to keep the two roles more balanced. Like maybe only the ret sees the result of their actions? If a sheriff investigates someone, only the ret knows. That way they can't use that info to confirm the ret to the medium. thoughts?


I prefer the idea of having dead Investigatives share their info with the other dead, so the dead have their own conversation in which they figure out all the evils.

This doesn't make the Ret dependent on the Medium at all - it makes the Ret a little better with a Medium, true, but most of the Ret's job can be accomplished by empowering a dead Vigilante or Bodyguard, and hoping they benefit from whatever info the dead TIs got.

This Ret with a Medium would still have less synergy than a Medium with a second Medium.[/quote]
Fair enough. Not only would it be more fun, but it still isn't crazy overpowered. I do think that at the minimum the ret should get the information in some way, as it is more fun and engaging.

Here is what I think would be the best case scenario re-work.
Necro-ret
Each night you may select one dead and grant them the ability to act on any night of their choosing. The results of these actions will be shared with you once they do it. They will get the normal result notification.
Each player may only be selected once.
If they are a killing role (Jailor, vet, vig, vh, etc) they will all act like a vig when targeted.
If they are a protecting role (trapper, BG, or Doc) They will act like a doc.
Mediums get an additional seance.
Mayors may place two votes on someone that will last until the end of the next day.
everyone else acts normally. (transporter can still only transport people who are alive, no OP BG here)

Bonus idea: let the medium use a empowered seance (two charges) to come back to life for a day. (this might be an overpowered medium + trans + ret combo though so probably not)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:13 pm

Yeah, it's probably necessary for the Ret to know what the dead did, so that he can decide which dead to empower next (and to make the role fun to play).

I don't like the idea of making all the killing roles the same. The Jailor should get his roleblocking ability with the potential to use any executes he has left, and the VH should only kill vampires. The Vet I'm not sure about; it wouldn't be too bad for that role to simply be useless to the ret, but it also would work fairly well for a dead Veteran's alert to protect the Retributionist (putting the Retributionist on alert for that night). A Jailor/Vet/Vig should still be limited by their own charges, even if the ret gives them actions.

I also don't like the idea of making the Trapper and Bodyguard work like doctors. To balance those, I would go with:
  • A Trapper who died without a trap prepared needs one ret action to build his trap, and a second ret action to place it.
  • A Bodyguard who died guarding someone can't act again, even if a ret gives him actions. (If his death wasn't by guarding, though, he can still use ret actions until he manages to kill an evil.)
I like the idea of the Medium getting an extra seance when empowered by the Ret.
Your idea for how a dead Mayor can act is pretty good, though I'd be equally happy with the Mayor being useless to the Ret.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:44 pm

Brilliand wrote:Yeah, it's probably necessary for the Ret to know what the dead did, so that he can decide which dead to empower next (and to make the role fun to play).

I don't like the idea of making all the killing roles the same. The Jailor should get his roleblocking ability with the potential to use any executes he has left, and the VH should only kill vampires. The Vet I'm not sure about; it wouldn't be too bad for that role to simply be useless to the ret, but it also would work fairly well for a dead Veteran's alert to protect the Retributionist (putting the Retributionist on alert for that night). A Jailor/Vet/Vig should still be limited by their own charges, even if the ret gives them actions.

I also don't like the idea of making the Trapper and Bodyguard work like doctors. To balance those, I would go with:
  • A Trapper who died without a trap prepared needs one ret action to build his trap, and a second ret action to place it.
  • A Bodyguard who died guarding someone can't act again, even if a ret gives him actions. (If his death wasn't by guarding, though, he can still use ret actions until he manages to kill an evil.)
I like the idea of the Medium getting an extra seance when empowered by the Ret.
Your idea for how a dead Mayor can act is pretty good, though I'd be equally happy with the Mayor being useless to the Ret.

Making all of the roles the same is suppose to be a nerf to ret as the whole weakness of the roles abilities (like BG) is some risk of death or a number of charges/failure. BG can't die again, they are already dead. I also wanted to make it so every dead could only get 1 charge to spread out the love (though this might need to be dropped due to quitters, maybe force them to give everyone, aka town, one charge before they can double up?). It also keeps things extremely simple on the programming side, as they can handle many roles with a single if statement. I do agree with a special exeption for VH. Maybe let them act like a normal vig once all the vamps are dead as if he were alive?
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