Town auto-wins

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Town auto-wins

Postby GoldMinerAtHome » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:23 am

Howdy folks,

Posting here today to talk about something that really rustles my jimmies. Why is trans versus mafioso an auto-win for town?

I understand the thought behind it. Maf can't attack because trans will just trans himself with the maf. But there's a hidden feature in the ToS GUI. You can actually choose to NOT attack anyone. It's very easy to find this hidden feature (perhaps even "Easter Egg"), all you have to do is not choose to attack someone.
Trans VS Maf should result in a draw. If you let the game play out, and the remaining mafia member wasn't a total window-licker, the game would result in a draw.

This is another one of those 10,000 reasons why players keep saying town is OP and the game is unbalanced.

I have prepared a small pie-chart to push this point past home.
https://i.imgur.com/EaJndTE.png

As you can see from the chart I have provided above, the 100% undeniable statistics say that this should result in a draw.

I would like to add a final, closing statement to my topic; This shit bananas. Fix or riot.

Thank you for your time, and I hope for your support.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby dota2reporter » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:25 am

this tiebreaker was made to prevent draws lmao

and how does this contribute to the argument of town being op


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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby GoldMinerAtHome » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:34 am

dota2reporter wrote:this tiebreaker was made to prevent draws lmao

and how does this contribute to the argument of town being op



Hi there,

This is a situation where there should be a draw. The game should either be left to play out, or it should be called as a draw.

I just came from a game where I was Escort. Died on N1. Watched the rest of the game unfold.

There was a single remaining mafia, who kept it together for 5 days.
The roles in-game were:
Jailor, mafioso, doc and an afk transporter.

Mafia convinced the Jailor that the other doc claim was sus. He got them hung. He convinced the jailor (Who had executed a townie) that the transporter was the last mafia. He killed the jailor, and then the next morning we (town) won the game because the afk transporter existed.

Mafia could have absolutely won in that situation. The transporter was afk.

Entire mafia loses ELO because one of their members played the game well, and convinced all of town that he wasn't mafia.


This guy lost a 1v7 (with 7 town being alive when he became the last mafia member), not because he played badly, not because town hung him, not because he got caught out, because someone went afk and their role happened to instantly cause town to win, for no apparent reason.


EDIT: It contributes to the argument of town being OP, because town automatically won in a situation where there could have either been a draw, or mafia could have won. In this situation (with the trans being AFK) mafia lost ELO when they absolutely would have gained, and town gained ELO in a situation where they should have lost. It's unbalanced.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby dota2reporter » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:45 am

this situation is so rare that it's basically pointless to "fix" it

draws only happen when everybody is dead or when 3-4 days without killing have passed

transp has unlimited transports, hence why it wins tiebreakers

get over it


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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby GoldMinerAtHome » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:51 am

dota2reporter wrote:this situation is so rare that it's basically pointless to "fix" it

draws only happen when everybody is dead or when 3-4 days without killing have passed

transp has unlimited transports, hence why it wins tiebreakers

get over it


"transp has unlimited transports, hence why it wins tiebreakers"
Trans has unlimited transports.
Mafia has unlimited lack of button presses.


"draws only happen when everybody is dead or when 3-4 days without killing have passed"
If the game didn't automatically end with my team winning, the other team could have waited out 3-4 days.



EDIT:
So if there are 2 BGs and 2 Mafia left, you think the game should end with a town win? The BGs can heal each other unlimited times, so it's clearly not unjust or unbalanced to automatically give a win to town, right?


"this situation is so rare that it's basically pointless to "fix" it"
If you stood a chance of shitting actual molten lava once every 2 years, would you say that it's pointless to worry about that, because it only happens every once in a while.
Last edited by GoldMinerAtHome on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby dota2reporter » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:54 am

GoldMinerAtHome wrote:
dota2reporter wrote:this situation is so rare that it's basically pointless to "fix" it

draws only happen when everybody is dead or when 3-4 days without killing have passed

transp has unlimited transports, hence why it wins tiebreakers

get over it


"transp has unlimited transports, hence why it wins tiebreakers"
Trans has unlimited transports.
Mafia has unlimited lack of button presses.


"draws only happen when everybody is dead or when 3-4 days without killing have passed"
If the game didn't automatically end with my team winning, the other team could have waited out 3-4 days.


"this situation is so rare that it's basically pointless to "fix" it"
If you stood a chance of shitting actual molten lava once every 2 years, would you say that it's pointless to worry about that, because it only happens every once in a while.

1. what i'm saying is that vetVmaf isn't a tiebreaker but a transpVmaf is because transp can go how long they want

2. what

3. that's a terrible comparison lol
you just lost some elo
stuff happens
you're most likely never gonna lose elo from this situation ever again because it's that rare


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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby GoldMinerAtHome » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:01 am

dota2reporter wrote:
GoldMinerAtHome wrote:
dota2reporter wrote:this situation is so rare that it's basically pointless to "fix" it

draws only happen when everybody is dead or when 3-4 days without killing have passed

transp has unlimited transports, hence why it wins tiebreakers

get over it


"transp has unlimited transports, hence why it wins tiebreakers"
Trans has unlimited transports.
Mafia has unlimited lack of button presses.


"draws only happen when everybody is dead or when 3-4 days without killing have passed"
If the game didn't automatically end with my team winning, the other team could have waited out 3-4 days.


"this situation is so rare that it's basically pointless to "fix" it"
If you stood a chance of shitting actual molten lava once every 2 years, would you say that it's pointless to worry about that, because it only happens every once in a while.

1. what i'm saying is that vetVmaf isn't a tiebreaker but a transpVmaf is because transp can go how long they want

2. what

3. that's a terrible comparison lol
you just lost some elo
stuff happens
you're most likely never gonna lose elo from this situation ever again because it's that rare



1. What I'm saying is that transporter can continue to transport mafia with himself, and mafia can continue to not attack. Should this go on for 3-4 days, the game would end in a draw.

2. See above.

3. I gained ELO. My complaint isn't that I won or lost a game. My complaint is that the system that decided who won / lost is unbalanced in this situation. And regardless of how rare the situation is, it is something that has been manually added to the game by BMG. It's a feature that was added, that makes the game (in this express situation) unbalanced. It's not asking a lot that a badly balanced feature, however unlikely it is to pop up, is patched out.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby dota2reporter » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:04 am

the point of making this was to prevent a draw

i don't see what's wrong with it

draws should be prevented and that's exactly what's happening here

if you think transp doesn't deserve the win that's your problem


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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby GoldMinerAtHome » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:11 am

dota2reporter wrote:the point of making this was to prevent a draw

i don't see what's wrong with it

draws should be prevented and that's exactly what's happening here

if you think transp doesn't deserve the win that's your problem




Once again, I understand the reasoning behind why this was added.
People don't play ToS because of how well it prevents draws. People play ToS because it's fun. And it's fun, partially because there's a stringent set of rules in place that decides who wins or loses the game.

The rules in terms of this express situation, are unbalanced. They may prevent a draw, but they also unjustly hand out a win.

What is the point of having a feedback section to the BMG forums if a complaint / comment on a feature of the game is the user's problem, and doesn't matter?

I think this particular win situation is unjust. I've supplied many points as to why I think so, and I don't think that they can be refuted. If you believe I've said something that is inherently wrong, please give a reason as to why you think that my point is untrue, or just out-right wrong.


"Your point doesn't matter and it's your problem that only you care about." is not a valid response to anything I've said in this thread.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby dota2reporter » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:14 am

godfather wins against transp

transp wins against mafioso

seems fair to me


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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:17 am

dota2reporter wrote:godfather wins against transp

transp wins against mafioso

seems fair to me


SK wins against GF

plus many more ''draw busting'' scenarios. thats why its called a Tiebreaker. Also no one wants to sit in dead chat for 4 days waiting for a draw.... shoulda targeted that transporter earlier dude
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:26 am

On a related note, I'd like to see all draws by timeout resolved in favor of town (provided at least one townie is alive). Since the town is the innocent faction an' all, any killer that refrains from killing has basically submitted to the town.

Since this opinion of mine is completely contrary to the opinion in the OP, I think we should settle on "don't change anything" as a compromise.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby dota2reporter » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:34 am

Brilliand wrote:On a related note, I'd like to see all draws by timeout resolved in favor of town (provided at least one townie is alive). Since the town is the innocent faction an' all, any killer that refrains from killing has basically submitted to the town.

Since this opinion of mine is completely contrary to the opinion in the OP, /nosupport for the OP from me.

flavour =/= balance

town has the highest winrate so it makes sense to have the priority as nk>maf>town


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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:40 pm

dota2reporter wrote:
Brilliand wrote:On a related note, I'd like to see all draws by timeout resolved in favor of town (provided at least one townie is alive). Since the town is the innocent faction an' all, any killer that refrains from killing has basically submitted to the town.

Since this opinion of mine is completely contrary to the opinion in the OP, /nosupport for the OP from me.

flavour =/= balance

town has the highest winrate so it makes sense to have the priority as nk>maf>town


There are always other ways to balance things.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:38 am

you re right about transporter, this is broken side of gameplay,a townie specialization works like unlimited veteran mode.
Maybe transporter needs a limit about transporting,like they should swap once per 2 nights and this is better for invest result during a game.at leasst invests will not wait till porter die.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:14 am

kyuss420 wrote:
dota2reporter wrote:godfather wins against transp

transp wins against mafioso

seems fair to me


SK wins against GF

plus many more ''draw busting'' scenarios. thats why its called a Tiebreaker. Also no one wants to sit in dead chat for 4 days waiting for a draw.... shoulda targeted that transporter earlier dude

GF must lose againsst SK, because do you imagine a godfather without members??? alone godfather is a mafioso. game should break their immunity and GF must turn into mafioso if GF lost his men power.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby KatiyaKramer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:31 am

The Developers of the game don't like draws very much, and rightfully so. It's a waste of everyone's time when a game draws out. That's why they have the automatic wins come up for certain scenarios as they do.
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Re: Town auto-wins

Postby Brilliand » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:39 pm

Brilliand wrote:
dota2reporter wrote:
Brilliand wrote:On a related note, I'd like to see all draws by timeout resolved in favor of town (provided at least one townie is alive). Since the town is the innocent faction an' all, any killer that refrains from killing has basically submitted to the town.

Since this opinion of mine is completely contrary to the opinion in the OP, /nosupport for the OP from me.

flavour =/= balance

town has the highest winrate so it makes sense to have the priority as nk>maf>town


There are always other ways to balance things.


To elaborate a bit more: I would consider giving the Mafioso a lesser form of the Veteran power. Let him stay home, and deal a Basic attack to anyone (or one random person?) who visits him.

This wouldn't be useful very often - mostly, it would just give him a way to kill the Transporter in this endgame scenario. But it is realistic.
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