VFM 49: SK win #rekt

[UzayAltay]

Okay I have finally caught up with the thread. Did a cop check on me succeed? If not then don't claim. See people think that I am the sk. If I was the sk then :-
1. I would be immune to mafia kills, that would make it so that cop can find me. Why would I want that to happen to me actively?
2. I would be immune to vig/cop. That would make it so that I am literally announcing to the mafia that I am not immune to them by wanting a cop check on me, making it so that maf can eliminate me anytime they want.

How could what I am doing be even remotely beneficial to me if i were the SK?

As for me being mafia, I don't really know people would come to that conclusion. Who would I even be in a scum team with?

Can sb explain The Logic at there to me ?
Like it seems to me he tried to prove they are not SK on A ???? way ?
I cant set up Logic here .

[UzayAltay]

Spoiler:

Qva/Chemist/cupcake is where I'm standing at rn

Can see Chem/cupcake , but Qva seems A bit off . Okay , they have interaction with cupcake , but Did You looked Qva/Chem interaction ? I am only remembering

I'm pretty sure Dash is town just from the amount of people that are agreeing with what they say, feels like there are mafia trying to pocket Dash there

Uzay is null, ejji is null, both might change with more flips

I'm townreading Flake for confbias reasons, I don't think he goes so far out of his way to defend town!me as scum

Zucker probably town by meta+townslip

Cupcake is wolfy but not in their wolf meta, so not really sure

Tfios and Proto I already touched on

Rick I already mentioned

Goomba is wolfy in a weird way from their D1 AtE and defensiveness

Qva is towny because they're actually taking stances and pushing stuff unlike how they did when they were scum

{Chemist, Zucker, Qva}
{Dash, tfios, Flake}
{Uzay, ejji}
{Rick, cupcake}
{Goomba, Proto}

This ,Maybe it is possible to find More with ISO ing but it is early for speak I think.

[UzayAltay]

this game is becoming a clusterfuck

I Dont know What that means
But it is probably right

LOL

Flake , If angleshoot is about that post
I can understand it is A bad thing due Last 4 letters
But not knowing exact meaning
Also Will go at 12 minutes

[UzayAltay]

i have a few reasons for thinking ejji is scum

early game comments on SK seem incredibly dubious with their comments on SK, and let's just say I also have an angleshot also alluding to the idea that they are SK or at least scum

they don't really seem to ever try to progress the game themselves; almost all their posts where "attempted progression" is made it's just asking people to elaborate on things constantly

in their town games they seem far more blunt and sarcastic, and their progression seems more self-made, things like:

"Haha do you think I care?
I'll tell you that I do not. if you're not progressing the game and if I think you're scummy, I will get rid of you regardless how shitty my arguments are
Besides, I do think that you're scummy and saying that "you're always like that" is not a convincing argument"

"Hey, wanna vote me again?"

"why aren't you SRing me? If I understood it correctly, you didn't like my previous posts"

"Sigh, I think you're just overthinking it. If you've ever played with scorpio, you should know that he's not the "thinker" type (no offense)"

"Tbh if you think the doc claim is bad, you suck at tone-reading"

are some notable posts which align with their town meta

generally their play just seems very wishy-washy here and very much aligns with what they'd do as scum

Btw just ignore my Last post
I missed angleshoot is about ejji.

[UzayAltay]

i have a few reasons for thinking ejji is scum

early game comments on SK seem incredibly dubious with their comments on SK, and let's just say I also have an angleshot also alluding to the idea that they are SK or at least scum

they don't really seem to ever try to progress the game themselves; almost all their posts where "attempted progression" is made it's just asking people to elaborate on things constantly

in their town games they seem far more blunt and sarcastic, and their progression seems more self-made, things like:

"Haha do you think I care?
I'll tell you that I do not. if you're not progressing the game and if I think you're scummy, I will get rid of you regardless how shitty my arguments are
Besides, I do think that you're scummy and saying that "you're always like that" is not a convincing argument"

"Hey, wanna vote me again?"

"why aren't you SRing me? If I understood it correctly, you didn't like my previous posts"

"Sigh, I think you're just overthinking it. If you've ever played with scorpio, you should know that he's not the "thinker" type (no offense)"

"Tbh if you think the doc claim is bad, you suck at tone-reading"

are some notable posts which align with their town meta

generally their play just seems very wishy-washy here and very much aligns with what they'd do as scum

Btw it is obvious Actually What You are angleshooting
So Why You are keeping silence ?

[Rickdaily12]

@Flake
Spoiler:

discussion here is straight up lamist
zero points speculating this without kill credits and with the switches to consider

It's not lamist, it's just me making points from my PoV, is that not acceptable??

And why would I consider switches here, I literally didn't need to at all, first point implies a possibility occurred so switches isn't relevant here, rest of the points are takes regarding kills for which I wouldn't need to mention switches at all

What Scum!Flake is doing here is speculating about information Town cannot possibly know to no benefit in an attempt to pass off useless analysis as Town cred. They want to get us talking about this topic so that we waste time trying to figure out what happened last night when only they have an idea of the actual night targets. It would almost be IIoA, if it weren't for the fact that we even don't know who the kills are credited to, so you can at least pretend not to know about that.

This is why what Town!Flake just did said is virtually nothing of value. You think the kills help solve the game for you, but you don't have a lynch based on the targets because you don't know who the kills were credited to. We don't know if a target was healed, if the vigilante even took a shot, or if a target was struck by two people. What do we gain from it, then?

I see why Scum!Flake brings it up, but not why Town!Flake bothers. So yeah, it looks LAMIST to me.

while also pretending to not know that ejj and i are close friends when we openly pair together on threads where i play
is actually pissing me off

show me evidence

if you dont know this
you have zero fucking business meta reading me and speculating what conversations ejj and i shouldnt be having
on this you can straight up piss off

Uh

am I missing something or am i literally being vilified for speculating something that is potentially helpful to the game?

sorry if you're offended by that but i literally don't understand why you would be

I would almost understand and could be a bit less frustrated if you weren't outright imposing into the nature of our friendship here. It was the fact that you were all like "what the actual fuck, Rick and Ejj don't know each other, this interaction can only be MxM because this is atypical behavior from Rick toward a person he hasn't played with". If you know me well enough to meta read me, you have should have some kind of semblance as to who I'm familiar enough with to have some kind of relationship out of the game with without brashly launching into something like this. This is my first game with Ejj, but a lot of people here know that she and I have history and are close. Chemist should know this too, though I can understand why you wouldn't.

Because you don't know that she and I are close friends, I don't expect you to understand that she literally scum reads me from the outside of every game we play, usually for the reason that she feels we approach the game differently and she doesn't know how to properly think about me due to approach.

But the fact that you tried to reconstruct how you thought our relationship ought to have been and used this as a means to argue that this was pointless mafia theater doesn't sit well with me at all, for the fact that you don't have any place to discuss this topic in any way. I don't know you, but I do know her, and I don't expect to have to explain my friendship with her when people like you try to drag it into the game itself, seeing as it's utterly ridiculous and completely out of line coming from you.

no
nuh uh
your "slip" exchange with flake felt forced and fake as fuck

if you think the slip exchange is fake you are stupid

scum never orchestrates something as intricate as that

because mafia never do a scum theater
right

They do

But you're missing my point entirely

If you'd somewhat analysed what went down you would know that it is too intricate to ever be faked by literally anyone on this site

Flake, I'm sorry, but no. There are pairings of Mafia teams that would certainly not be able to pull some kind of "slip" tactic in the thread on the fly, certainly, but if your argument is that you and Chemist don't have the skill set to pull this off, don't even bother. You don't qualify for this premise.

You and Chemist are two skilled players who I think wouldn't be afraid to attempt something like this if you put yourselves up to it. If your argument is that "it's too difficult to fake" and that "it's too genuine for people at our skill level", it's never going to fly with me, and I don't care how hard you try to dispute this, you're not going to convince me when I know that you and Chemist are smart enough to make something like this work.

Is my take wrong on this? Possibly. But if your argument revolves around difficulty and skill level between you and Chemist, then it's a pretty shitty argument.

Adding this, since it's relevant:

To people who think mine and chemist's interaction is orchestrated

In what world does Mafia come up with

"hey chem, you make a fake slip by including someone who dies you out on it, i'll deepwolf and call you outed scum because i'll say i think you make the slip on someone specifically rather than you knowing the possibility that it could be a slip but not being bothered to remove the slip after the flip of the someone who dies, but then i'll realise it's actually you just knowing the possibility it could be a slip pre-flip and do a completee 180 on you"

like can you all use your brains for a bit

NO ONE ORCHESTRATES THIS AS MAFIA EVER

NO ONE COMES UP WITH THAT PLAN

How about, the same world where Mafia!Chemist says this:

Cool are we just gonna have everyone townslip

Everyone this game so far has literally spent the entire time talking about how this person or that person derped themselves into being called lock town so far. If I were Mafia in this game and I saw everyone narrowing down their PoE lists because of it, then yeah, I can see myself trying to fabricate something like this, and I can totally see other people doing it as Mafia too. This kind of scum theater would also serve a hell of a lot of purpose under the circumstances too. I don't see it going exactly the way you quoted it in the above (not unless you're the biggest troll literally ever and this is exactly how it went), but I can see it getting suggested no problem at all.

Flake, seriously, like how exactly do you plan on expecting us to believe that you wouldn't pull this off as scum because you don't have the skill for it?

I don't like that Rick doesn't think there's merit in analysing the night kills. I'd quote the post but it's huge. Rick during D1 you were eager to discuss possibilities where we find SK early, even though it was far-fetched. I thought your attempt to gauge the towniness of our responses was very town-motivated, because as Flake told me yesterday, having a solid town pool is very important for narrowing down poe. Why discredit Flake's attempt to explain the night kills? I'd think trying to solve them helps us with the game, and scum might even slip while discussing them.

See my response to Flake, but I'll differ in this way:

There is a solid difference between asking everyone what they think our approach to solving a complicated setup when everyone in the game has little or no experience with it, from speculating over information that we do not have. My question dealt with strategy for dealing with a unique game concept and setup that everyone has little/no experience with. Ways of getting everyone on the same page about how to think about strategy and future risks we might have to take as a result. If this were a typical Mafia game, everyone here would have experience or some kind of knowledge about the endgame. No one had that here.

Flake's post was about speculating reasons for why people were killed and who did it. It's common for scum to do in order for pass off as Town, because only they know why people are killed and who killed who and it doesn't actually tell us much when we have no way to tell apart a Vigilante kill from the rest of the Scum. His analysis only said that he can PoE a bit better now, but doesn't actually argue who (players, not the roles) the information implicates.

Our goals here weren't the same either. I was trying to help myself and others better understand how this game shapes out over time, while asking everyone else to give their thoughts to see who sounded the most like genuine and honest Town. I even had to bump the post just to get people to care about it. If no one bothered to remark about Flake's post at all, I don't think he would have cared at all, so I don't think Flake was trying to provoke any slips with this, Town, Scum, or what have you.

[Rickdaily12]

I literally almost fell asleep making that post, so I'll be back after work tomorrow.

Good night, guys.

[Chemist1422]

I think cupcake's posts are bad and I want to see them respond to pressure

By gamestate I'd go crimson over cupcake just because most of the lownull people are going after cupcake over crimson

Cupcake wagon seems more wolf-driven

Also the soft part of my headphones fell off so I'm gonna spend the next 20 minutes trying to fix that bye

This is a hard 180. Before that first post Chemist hardly acknowledged cupcake, then afterwards he proceeded to be against a cupcake lynch.

No it's not

These two things are not mutually exclusive

[Chemist1422]

Split my last post into two cause there's no logical connection between my D1 thoughts and now lol

self-awareness noted

[Chemist1422]

Okay I reread EoD to see what happened (despite my better judgement)

I don't think tfios is mafia, as they had nothing to gain from not just committing to a Crimson lynch.

I'm not convinced on Proto being town at all, I'm going to cross-meta him between 17F+SFM57 once I finish typing this/after I post it depending on when day starts. I don't like his flipping of reads and the way he popped in with his second post felt like he was waiting for a chance to enter the thread in a non-awkward way, plus being self-aware about stuff.

I think Rick's answer to my question of there being a deepwolf is really interesting and very potentially spewy depending on his alignment, and since tfios/Crimson/Zucker/Goomba are all unlikely mafia/flipped town I think he could be wolf with another deepwolf here, most probably Flake or ejji.

My metaread on Eragon still stands.

I think Uzay's PbPA of Crimson was villagery, even with Crimson flipping town. I need to check if he responded to Crimson's counterpoints.

If there are any other specific reads I come up with I'll post them separately from this, because this was pre-typed during the night.

Oh, just wait

[Chemist1422]

chemist is probably town for not crumbling there

i think he would have if he genuinely faked the slip

Or The scum
Which didnt kill Eragon
From your Logic .

But I Dont think Chem's slip was AI
I know , You was thinking "Chem wouldnt give that reactions as scum "

But , If he planned The slip , He can plan How can he defend after slip, too
So I Dont think Chem's posts at there are even AI
Chem can be everything with that slip IMO

This is probably the most logical post that has been made all day

[Zucker]

/vote cupcake

I'm not making the same mistake twice actually. I should have stuck with this from the start

Scum will hammer this don’t do that.
Cupcake is Town and is also a really horrible player.

[Zucker]

oh chemist slipped non-mafia maybe

but could be fake easily

oh wait it could be non-mafia or non-sk slip

/vote Flake

Easiest scumslip
You are probably Maf/NK that forget no kill credits for A moment

/Vote Flake

I hard agree!
Me think it’s Flake, Chemist and Proto!

[Chemist1422]

/vote cupcake

I'm not making the same mistake twice actually. I should have stuck with this from the start

Scum will hammer this don’t do that.
Cupcake is Town and is also a really horrible player.

That’s actually very rude so can you not

[Zucker]

Town Pool: {Me, Chem, Tfios, Dash2, Zucker, Protozigg, Grumpy}

PoE Pool: {Uzay, Ejji, Rick, Qva, Cupcake}

Can You explain bolded ones ?
Actually due below being PoE Pool , just above

Proto because as Town their demeanor is never serious and always reckless & overconfident

As scum he plays recklessly and with overconfidence normally, but sometimes he will have bursts of being normal and serious where he attempts to radiate town incentive, see 17F

Seeing as it's the former I don't think he's scum here

Grumpy I now moved to PoE pool, though I'm unsure on them, initially I thought their reads would not come from Mafia but I can see it now, and I am also put off by their overdefense of themselves and them centralising their thought processes around SK, but as the same time I don't think they'd be reckless enough to say some of the things they're saying if they are scum

For me you and Qva are near impossible to read; neither of you have considerable town incentive as compared to what you'd have as scum, but neither of you are lacking it either, it's just a case of both of you being less town than most other players for me. Like neither of you are playing outside the realm of your scum meta imo.

Why you mention Proto First?

[Zucker]

Like forcibly I think it's likely at least one of you (Uzay) and Qva are scum. But if 1, I have no idea which it'd be, probably I'd guess you for maybe being less aggressive than you normally would be as town

There both Town.
Stop trying to change that Scum!

[GrumpyGoomba]

oh chemist slipped non-mafia maybe

but could be fake easily

oh wait it could be non-mafia or non-sk slip

/vote Flake

Easiest scumslip
You are probably Maf/NK that forget no kill credits for A moment

/Vote Flake

I hard agree!
Me think it’s Flake, Chemist and Proto!

The fuck happened to your dash tunnel? You even said that apparently dash is scum if crimson flips town...

[Chemist1422]

chemist is probably town for not crumbling there

i think he would have if he genuinely faked the slip

Or The scum
Which didnt kill Eragon
From your Logic .

But I Dont think Chem's slip was AI
I know , You was thinking "Chem wouldnt give that reactions as scum "

But , If he planned The slip , He can plan How can he defend after slip, too
So I Dont think Chem's posts at there are even AI
Chem can be everything with that slip IMO

This is probably the most logical post that has been made all day

How, it's literally just stating the obvious

Exactly

Town Pool: {Me, Chem, Tfios, Dash2, Zucker, Protozigg, Grumpy}

PoE Pool: {Uzay, Ejji, Rick, Qva, Cupcake}

Can You explain bolded ones ?
Actually due below being PoE Pool , just above

Proto because as Town their demeanor is never serious and always reckless & overconfident

As scum he plays recklessly and with overconfidence normally, but sometimes he will have bursts of being normal and serious where he attempts to radiate town incentive, see 17F

Seeing as it's the former I don't think he's scum here

Grumpy I now moved to PoE pool, though I'm unsure on them, initially I thought their reads would not come from Mafia but I can see it now, and I am also put off by their overdefense of themselves and them centralising their thought processes around SK, but as the same time I don't think they'd be reckless enough to say some of the things they're saying if they are scum

For me you and Qva are near impossible to read; neither of you have considerable town incentive as compared to what you'd have as scum, but neither of you are lacking it either, it's just a case of both of you being less town than most other players for me. Like neither of you are playing outside the realm of your scum meta imo.

Why you mention Proto First?

>proto is first in the readslist

[Zucker]

/vote cupcake

I'm not making the same mistake twice actually. I should have stuck with this from the start

Scum will hammer this don’t do that.
Cupcake is Town and is also a really horrible player.

That’s actually very rude so can you not

How’s that rude?

/Vote Chemist

[Zucker]

oh chemist slipped non-mafia maybe

but could be fake easily

oh wait it could be non-mafia or non-sk slip

/vote Flake

Easiest scumslip
You are probably Maf/NK that forget no kill credits for A moment

/Vote Flake

I hard agree!
Me think it’s Flake, Chemist and Proto!

The fuck happened to your dash tunnel? You even said that apparently dash is scum if crimson flips town...

Oh Dash is SK, I want to take down Mafia first! ^_^

[GrumpyGoomba]

You do you buddy... you do you.

[Chemist1422]

/vote cupcake

I'm not making the same mistake twice actually. I should have stuck with this from the start

Scum will hammer this don’t do that.
Cupcake is Town and is also a really horrible player.

That’s actually very rude so can you not

How’s that rude?

/Vote Chemist

Oh my god do you actually not see the problem here

[Chemist1422]

I hope you're happy what you've done

You probably could have outed this at daystart

/vote cupcake

[Qvapil]

Town in order from most towny to least
{Qvapil, Dash, Zucker, Flake, Uzay, Rick, ejji}

Null
{Proto}

Scum in no particular order
{Chemist, tfios, cupcake, Goomba}


I have ejji so low in town because I remember liking their D1 posts, but I can't find their iso so I can't form a proper read.

Cupcake I was against lynching yesterday but my only hesitation was their meta which I don't know how well I can judge, as Proto pointed out. Ignoring that, I'd be completely advocating for their lynch, both because they were the other wagon D1 and because their posts are shit. Plus I think they have telling interactions with chemist and tfios. I don't think my meta read is strong enough to keep defending him, but I want them to post today before I decide whether I'll vote.

Tfios is so low partly because they have been acting a bit differently than our previous game together where they were town, but even if I completely abandon any meta reads this game, I still don't like their D1 post explaining their thoughts on crimson and cupcake. If cupcake ever flips town, I'd be on tfios immediately. If cupcake flips mafia, I'm not so sure if both tfios and chemist would defend them over crimson D1 so in that case I'll probably pick one.

Goomba I think is SK because they've focused on it a lot. They also probably picked cop/vig immunity based on their posts.

Proto I can't read.

Rick I think they're town based on D1, and in general I think their posts are really helpful and informative. He's helped town too much to be scum I think. But I don't like that they're pushing possible scum!flake today. I also don't like how flake talked so much about Chemist's slip. I think you kinda derailed the conversation a bit there, whether you buy the flip or not. I also don't think chemist/flake are maf/maf. If we chemist dies before cupcake and chemist is town, it's definetely tfios/cupcake.

[Qvapil]

Oh I posted that before I read Dash's result. How many votes does cupcake have? I don't want to put him too close to hammer.