Executioner Target

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Executioner Target

Postby Emberguard » Mon May 13, 2019 5:37 am

It's utterly impossible for executioner to win against Transporter due to them being mod confirmed in the game as town. Please either give mafia a transporter, witch a transporter message or remove it from the executioner target pool
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby FrenchyTheSphee » Mon May 13, 2019 2:19 pm

Easy support /support. I don't support removing transporter from the Exe's target list, but Mafia needs a way for them or witch to make a trans message
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby Google » Mon May 13, 2019 3:55 pm

FrenchyTheSphee wrote:Easy support /support. I don't support removing transporter from the Exe's target list, but Mafia needs a way for them or witch to make a trans message

hypno.
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby FrenchyTheSphee » Mon May 13, 2019 3:59 pm

Google wrote:
FrenchyTheSphee wrote:Easy support /support. I don't support removing transporter from the Exe's target list, but Mafia needs a way for them or witch to make a trans message

hypno.

hypno needs to be added to normal. It shouldn't be coven exclusive
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby Zyprexa2024 » Mon May 20, 2019 8:14 am

Emberguard wrote:It's utterly impossible for executioner to win against Transporter due to them being mod confirmed in the game as town. Please either give mafia a transporter, witch a transporter message or remove it from the executioner target pool


mafia having a trans would be stupid. Don't. Just remove it from the pool, like jailor and mayor.
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby Brilliand » Wed May 22, 2019 6:14 pm

Emberguard wrote:It's utterly impossible for executioner to win against Transporter due to them being mod confirmed in the game as town. Please either give mafia a transporter, witch a transporter message or remove it from the executioner target pool


Transporter is not mod confirmed. It's confirmed to exist (but only to specific players), and someone needs to claim it.

Hence, it's hard but not impossible to get a Transporter lynched as Executioner. If they happen to transport a jailed person N1, then it's actually fairly easy; if not, you can either claim their fellow mafia are confirming them, or (as a particularly challenging play) CC them, insisting that all the transports they claimed are yours and they're just faking.

Not disputing your suggestion per se, but I wanted to point out that you exaggerated.
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby Villagerlover » Wed May 22, 2019 6:29 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Emberguard wrote:It's utterly impossible for executioner to win against Transporter due to them being mod confirmed in the game as town. Please either give mafia a transporter, witch a transporter message or remove it from the executioner target pool


Transporter is not mod confirmed. It's confirmed to exist (but only to specific players), and someone needs to claim it.

Hence, it's hard but not impossible to get a Transporter lynched as Executioner. If they happen to transport a jailed person N1, then it's actually fairly easy; if not, you can either claim their fellow mafia are confirming them, or (as a particularly challenging play) CC them, insisting that all the transports they claimed are yours and they're just faking.

Not disputing your suggestion per se, but I wanted to point out that you exaggerated.


This is so scenario-specific based, and utterly useless for a majority of plays.
The real problem comes from the transpoter's confirming themselves with transportation messages.

A town member in a ranked setting is going to side with a transporter claim really easily since they have the ability to confirm themselves with the transportation message. How do you fight that as an executioner if you cannot even know if they tried transporting someone who happened to be in jail? I understand your idea of being able to CC them as well, but in a ranked setting, town isn't going to buy it and go for a hasty lynch.
The reality is that the transporter is simply too confirmable and it really is impossible to get a transporter claim lynched because it's something only a stupid or half-minded town would do.

I don't agree with OP though. It can remain on the Executioner's target list, but I think the transportation messages should just be straight up removed so that it's not so easy to just "confirm" them. (Plus it would suddenly become a great claim for evil roles)
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby Emberguard » Sun May 26, 2019 11:43 pm

Removing the transporter message would also solve the problem. I did give in the OP a few alternate options as the problem isn't that the transporter is on the list - the problem is they're a mod confirmable town player on the list

@brilliand mod confirming to a couple players is still mod confirming. CC'ing doesn't work unless you can rush the process. There's simply too much info to be able to get away with fake claiming trans.
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby Brilliand » Mon May 27, 2019 12:46 pm

Emberguard wrote:@brilliand mod confirming to a couple players is still mod confirming.


Confirming that the role exists is not mod confirming the player. Only confirming who has that role is mod confirming them - i.e. what the Mayor does.
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby kyuss420 » Tue May 28, 2019 4:10 am

removing the transported message just opens up a whole new can of worms. It nerfs sheriff with everyone they find being able to say '''there must be a transporter in game'' Trans the jailor, and they die... then the doc or BG gets lynched for ''not being on jailor''..... assuming the trans isnt going to out himself early game (unless theres an exe pushing on them)

with the hypno role in coven, the trans is forced to trans 2 people in the same night to confirm themselves (rip town if 2 hypnos spawn) as hypno can only hypno 1 target, thus a trans will that shows them only transing themself, is usually a hypno.

So idk what you want as exe.... make it so that only unconfirmable roles can be your target? Everyone knows NK and NE are harder to win with, and some players like the challenge, while others just want easy wins without having to think around problems... trans as your target? for starters dont side with town. maybe dont even vote, its a risk to kill them as maf becuase they may have transported one of you with them, and even more riskier with less players on the field, so chances are they will have to lynch them at some point (oh no, an NE has to side with mafia to win...who woulda thought??? - maybe claim a role and shed some innocence on the mafia to give them the majority to vote your target)
If maf do happen to kill them, then youre jester and if youve been siding with town, youve just made yourself a maf target and chances are theyll kill you before town even start suspecting you and thinking about lynching you.

tl/dr - learn to exe like a pro. Try something and if it fails, try something else next time. Dont use the same Exe tactic for every role in the game and think it will work. Have a back up plan and think a night or 2 ahead (at least) Scroll for Exe for a week and try different strategies
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby Villagerlover » Tue May 28, 2019 6:22 am

kyuss420 wrote:removing the transported message just opens up a whole new can of worms. It nerfs sheriff with everyone they find being able to say '''there must be a transporter in game'' Trans the jailor, and they die... then the doc or BG gets lynched for ''not being on jailor''..... assuming the trans isnt going to out himself early game (unless theres an exe pushing on them)

with the hypno role in coven, the trans is forced to trans 2 people in the same night to confirm themselves (rip town if 2 hypnos spawn) as hypno can only hypno 1 target, thus a trans will that shows them only transing themself, is usually a hypno.

So idk what you want as exe.... make it so that only unconfirmable roles can be your target? Everyone knows NK and NE are harder to win with, and some players like the challenge, while others just want easy wins without having to think around problems... trans as your target? for starters dont side with town. maybe dont even vote, its a risk to kill them as maf becuase they may have transported one of you with them, and even more riskier with less players on the field, so chances are they will have to lynch them at some point (oh no, an NE has to side with mafia to win...who woulda thought??? - maybe claim a role and shed some innocence on the mafia to give them the majority to vote your target)
If maf do happen to kill them, then youre jester and if youve been siding with town, youve just made yourself a maf target and chances are theyll kill you before town even start suspecting you and thinking about lynching you.

tl/dr - learn to exe like a pro. Try something and if it fails, try something else next time. Dont use the same Exe tactic for every role in the game and think it will work. Have a back up plan and think a night or 2 ahead (at least) Scroll for Exe for a week and try different strategies



The problem with those incidents is that you're relying on the presence of a hypnotist to say "Hey look this transporter claim might be fake".
First off, the hypnotist can only give the transporter message to one person, so the hypnotist would have to come out and say they transported themselves with that one person in order to even accomplish this task of faking transporter. A real transporter would have to transport 2 people as you mention, and thus, create the "transporter confirmed test". And this only accounts for the instances where there would even be a hypnotist in the regular game mode, which there isn't (even though they reallllly should be...).
This won't exactly help out an executioner since the town wouldn't be so hasty to lynch, and would probably have the transporter perform the "transport 2 people" test and have both parties confirm it. It can help a little bit if there is a hypnotist, but not that much.

And the fact that you are (at this point in the game) having to rely on hoping the mafia doesn't kill your target, and being unable to directly accuse your target without confirming you are executioner a majority of the time is ludicrous and pathetic. When you play Executioner, and your target is a transporter, you should not have to rely on becoming a jester to win the game. Theoretically, every executioner game should allow the executioner to safely accuse their target without the target auto-confirming themselves so that they have a chance to fool a competent town.
The transporter itself should be nerfed with that message. I highly doubt it would "open a new can of worms".
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby kyuss420 » Wed May 29, 2019 2:49 am

point being hiding the ''you were transported to another location'' nerfs the amount of info town receive and is a shit idea.... why not hide the ''you were attacked and healed'' message, ya know, in case Exe's target is doc and healed someone night 1? Why not hide the ''you were RBed'' message, in case Exe target is escort, why not make veteran delete wills, in case exe target is vet?

You arent suggesting an Exe buff, youre suggesting a transporter nerf, and it doesnt really need one. Let alone the nerf it will do for town.....

Theoretically every exe game should pose a different challenge and not just be a ''I hope town is dumb and lynch happy so i can win day 2 without any effort''.

now Ill repeat my first paragraph in my first post (cos you obviosly didnt read it) removing the transported message nerfs sheriff, with everyone they find being able to say '''there must be a transporter in game''. Trans the jailor, and they die... then the doc or BG gets lynched for ''not being on jailor''..... assuming the trans isnt going to out himself early game (unless theres an exe pushing on them). Anyone can now claim transporter and nullify any TI result by saying they transported the accussed person (this will actually cause more town to claim and confirm themselves faster, which will end up worse for executioners with other roles for targets)

Being able to confirm that you were transported, doesnt just confirm the transporter, it confirms what you did on a particular night...what if a tracker visited you when you were transported, then your will looks fake when you are accussed? Or you start lynching people with Hex Masterish claims because sherriff found you sus when you were transported? Or you push the invest who sussed you when you were transported because his will is fake?
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby Villagerlover » Wed May 29, 2019 7:19 am

kyuss420 wrote:point being hiding the ''you were transported to another location'' nerfs the amount of info town receive and is a shit idea.... why not hide the ''you were attacked and healed'' message, ya know, in case Exe's target is doc and healed someone night 1? Why not hide the ''you were RBed'' message, in case Exe target is escort, why not make veteran delete wills, in case exe target is vet?

You arent suggesting an Exe buff, youre suggesting a transporter nerf, and it doesnt really need one. Let alone the nerf it will do for town.....

Theoretically every exe game should pose a different challenge and not just be a ''I hope town is dumb and lynch happy so i can win day 2 without any effort''.

now Ill repeat my first paragraph in my first post (cos you obviosly didnt read it) removing the transported message nerfs sheriff, with everyone they find being able to say '''there must be a transporter in game''. Trans the jailor, and they die... then the doc or BG gets lynched for ''not being on jailor''..... assuming the trans isnt going to out himself early game (unless theres an exe pushing on them). Anyone can now claim transporter and nullify any TI result by saying they transported the accussed person (this will actually cause more town to claim and confirm themselves faster, which will end up worse for executioners with other roles for targets)

Being able to confirm that you were transported, doesnt just confirm the transporter, it confirms what you did on a particular night...what if a tracker visited you when you were transported, then your will looks fake when you are accussed? Or you start lynching people with Hex Masterish claims because sherriff found you sus when you were transported? Or you push the invest who sussed you when you were transported because his will is fake?


The reason you don't have to "hide those messages" for the other roles you listed above is because they are all very situational roles that need to qualify to be in a specific scenario in order to be "proven" if you can even call it that (depending on the situation, you can counter those "proves"). A doctor healing someone is meaning you somehow predict who the mafia will attack and kill, meanwhile an escort's roleblocking message can be countered by saying they're a consort instead of an escort. A veteran...well, someone actually needs to visit the veteran.
Another thing wrong with these examples is that you can theoretically CC all of their claims. If they claim veteran, you can claim veteran in return and make the town confused for that evening. It's not like the town would want to visit the veteran to "prove" them cause that would be stupid.
You actually have options to counter all of these kinds of things, and these are very viable claims that can support an Executioner's chance of lynching their target.

But unlike all of those other roles, the transporter does not have a mafia counterpart to "claim they are mafia". The transporter does not need to be in a "situational" scenario to be proven. It can be instantly proven by doing it's normal night ability on literally anyone on any night which is a huge problem that I think you are really over sighting. You can't even CC a transporter claim because why would you be stupid enough to claim you can transport people when you can't? You have zero way of showing you can transport people...

It's all because of those transportation messages dude. There's a really big reason I was suggesting a transporter nerd instead of an Executioner buff.
And frankly, it appears you and I have different views on how an Executioner is supposed to play. I believe every executioner game should be roughly the same in terms of how lynchable your target can be. You believe the Executioner should have a challenge every match.
This is perfectly fine, but there is a major problem when it comes to "challenges" being more difficult than others in a ranked setting. And that's where I believe you are wrong.

It is much easier to get a doctor lynched than a transporter, and you don't really seem to understand that a town will not lynch a transporter claim since they can prove themselves so easily.


Now then, would removing transportation messages screw with the town investigative roles? Absolutely.
But that is up to the hands of the players, and not the transporter role itself. Theoretically anyone can claim they transported anyone, but would it be a good idea? Not always. And that's finally leading up to being in the same boat with everyone else. Role list space sometimes limits your viability to claim that role, and obviously an investigator/sheriff can always recheck someone if they thing they were truly transported.
I think you are overthinking on the idea of transporters being silent all game while transporting townies silently and causing chaos when TI's come out. And of course that kind of stuff would happen, but that's the players fault for not saying anything. It is not like town roles can automatically confirm themselves after all, it would take time since no one is gonna get those transportation messages anymore. When it takes time to confirm roles, that's a really good thing for the evil roles.

Imagine being able to claim something else in the town support category instead of just medium.
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby StlnSP » Wed May 29, 2019 7:40 am

kyuss420 wrote:removing the transported message just opens up a whole new can of worms. It nerfs sheriff with everyone they find being able to say '''there must be a transporter in game'' Trans the jailor, and they die... then the doc or BG gets lynched for ''not being on jailor''..... assuming the trans isnt going to out himself early game (unless theres an exe pushing on them)...

this is why transporters should never randomly transport people.You're just going to screw the town more than helping it.And honestly, getting rewarded just for clicking 2 buttons is unfair.

Also, sheriffs isn't going "supper nerfed" considering it's already a sweet spot for scum/exes to claim on.
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Re: Executioner Target

Postby kyuss420 » Fri May 31, 2019 3:37 am

yea, but vets usually bait, and if they kill a townie who has them in their will on n1 then Exe is in a worse spot than having a trans as target. Let alone trying to cc someone as Vet, when they baited day 1 and you didnt. Sheriff checks your target n1 and finds them inno? jailor calls for TP/LO day 1 and your target is TP or LO? Your target is jailed n1 and you somehow find them sus? Your target was RBed and you claim to have seen them visit? Theres a spy in game who can confirm that escort isnt consort? Town arent lynch happy and want TIs to check your target or they have someone better to lynch day 2 or 3?

Yea, these are situational, but happen a lot, amongst many other situations that occur... none of these situations are any worse than having a transporter as your target, or any townie that can confirm themselves or has already been confirmed. Its just part of being an Exe, sometimes you have to change the way you play mid game, or change the way you want to play early game (like being bit by vamps). Sometimes you are at the mercy of the mafia, and have to help them get majority to win, sometimes you win early by having a dumb town.

As for ranked, as soon as no one claims to have been witched n1, Town will be looking out for the Exe/Jester to make his move, well, competant players will anyway, which will slow them down on being lynch happy, so youre better off to claim ''witched'' day 2, then push your target day 3, but this gives 2 nights for any of the above situations to occur, which puts you back in the same situation as having a trans target....unless luck is on your side
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