VFM 49: SK win #rekt

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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:32 am

Zucker wrote:At least Flake is giving detail to back up what he’s done. ^_^
Dash Refuses to give Detail
Dash states stuff with no actual context
Dash doesn’t even look like they want to actually help town
Dash should be lynched today, if Flake is still very scummy tomorrow then we can definitely vote them.

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Zucker, seriously, you're turning into a walking case example now.

Rickdaily12 wrote: Spoiler: If someone tries to impose a gladiator on a conflict without good reason, you want to pressure that person. You ESPECIALLY want to do this if the person in question isn't confirmed to be Town yet. TvT conflicts happen all the time, but Mafia love when they do, because they can more easily let you keep looking at that conflict waiting for you to decide if you're going to kill into that conflict or egg someone into demanding that someone in that duo/trio/whatever dies.
If people don't have hard evidence that there is Scum in a conflict, people shouldn't be eager to lynch in the issue. Short of having a parity cop check or a confirmed Town which confirms a liar in the pair, if all two people are doing is having a heated argument that really flares up, it could just be temper and ego. At the end of the day, it isn't alignment indicative purely on that basis alone, despite how distracting it just was. Town aren't flawless either, obviously, so sometimes two people just really derail the thread with their argument but turn out to be on the same side. Chances are, you aren't going to know if that conflict has scum unless you have direct evidence to the contrary.
So if all of a sudden, someone shouts "someone in that pair is getting lynched today!" (especially if the Day Phase isn't ending for 24 or more hours...)
You should probably ask that person why they're so certain that the conflict isn't TvT in the first place. Their answer will probably be at least telling.
Keep an open eye out for people who disappeared once the argument started, or just sort of let everything explode out of control and more or less encourage people to take sides on a hypothetical lynch in that pair. Anyone without a solid reason as to why the conflict is certain to be not TvT should have great reasons for it, or looked at for pushing this.

Why are Dash and Flake never TvT to you?
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:33 am

Alright, so the thing I was supposed to do today got pushed to tomorrow, so I have quite a bit of free time today.

Rickdaily12 wrote:By the way, everyone, what do we think about the tactic of trying to avoid lynching the SK? I'm a bit torn thinking over what exactly our approach this game should be.

Like, because of the whole situation with the switches and all of the WIFOM hell, it's probably really safe to assume that Night Plans this game on our end are going to be utterly useless. We ultimately have no control over any of the night actions that get sent and that end up working, as all of that utility ultimately gets negated by the scum. So really, like, I view this game as 11 cits versus a 3v1 scum faction. The only thing really going for us is that the SK will want the Mafia as dead as badly as we do and can screw with their abilities in a way that we can't. (Like really, I'm still pretty salty that we didn't end up getting more citizens or even a role that can flip switches too.)

So, because of this, we at least have an SK that can crosskill into Mafia, and screw with their switches for as long as the Mafia remain alive. Plus, as more Mafia die, we effectively get stronger over time, since this frees more of the PRs and basically undoes a vanillasizer on the PRs. But if we lynch the SK, Scum loses a KP, but then we almost basically guarantee Scum never cross killing into each other the moment SK dies, and that could be pretty devastating, especially if multiple PRs die before hitting ever hitting Mafia.

Is it also in the better interest of the SK if they try to help us get a few Cop checks to work? They can't outright murder the Town if Mafia remains at full power, so if they did everything in their power to help us find associations between mafia, it's in all of our benefit, right?

Basically I'm unsure how Town wins without us getting lucky on the Vig or without SK helping us kill at least one of the Mafia. Is anyone else familiar with this setup?

Bumping seeing as how only Uzay answered this. I do want to know how people think we should approach this game.

Speaking of Uzay, I like a lot of his posts so far, but one thing that did stick out at me was his progression on Flake seemed a little bit off. I remember reading and seeing how he called Flake's actions into question from Town and voted him, only to back off in the same page saying that the reaction to the vote felt townie. It felt a little insincere when I was looking at it.


(P-Edit when you accidentally make a post before your catchup post... lol D: )

(DOUBLE P-EDIT GOD DAMMIT DASH I WAS JUST ABOUT TO BITCH ABOUT THIS)
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby GrumpyGoomba » Mon May 13, 2019 11:43 am

Dash2 wrote:So some things to note is how Goomba didn't do much until Flake started accusing me, and Zucker supposedly skipped until my response to Flake and only my posts as a catchup. Flake himself I'll be going into once I am on my laptop, but I have reason to believe at least one of these are scum.

Tbh I still haven't done anything useful yet... it'll get better I promise.
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:54 am

Dash2 wrote:Rick what are your thoughts on this attempted wagon on me

Attempted wagon? That wasn't how I was reading it. I didn't think you were in any actual danger yet.

I don't really know you and Flake all that well, but I mean, the most I know about the two of you is that Flake is very matter-of-fact when he approaches the game, and really dislikes weak statements without reasoning. I can imagine that he doesn't like gut reads from people just left as they are, but that seems consistent with his play whenever I read games with him in them. As for you, Dash, I just remember that you're a really old player too, and while I think you mishandled yourself when Flake asked you to explain one of your opinions here:

Flake wrote:
Dash2 wrote:
Flake wrote:
Dash2 wrote:
GrumpyGoomba wrote:
Dash2 wrote:Uzay is town honestly

Why do you think so? Just curious.

Because he's being how he always is as town, plus nothing strikes me as scummy.

can you be a bit more specific

No

/vote Dash2

Yeah, here. You kinda got what you deserved there. But I really don't have any reason to SR either you or Flake and I don't think Flake's response to you here wouldn't come from irritated Town. It's another reason why Zucker's really starting to annoy me, and I don't know if it's because he's a VI or not.

Dash2 wrote:So some things to note is how Goomba didn't do much until Flake started accusing me, and Zucker supposedly skipped until my response to Flake and only my posts as a catchup. Flake himself I'll be going into once I am on my laptop, but I have reason to believe at least one of these are scum.

Just quickly skimming back into the thread again, Goomba just seems like a bit of noise. Doesn't seem too opportunistic for me right now, or at least, I didn't see him taking any strong stance unless I'm skimming too hard. Normally this would be more annoying, but again, the game is still pretty fresh and I can forgive that sort of thing right now. I think Zucker has been a bit more opportunistic in comparison to Goomba as it stands.

Chemist, by the way, is it confirmed if Zucker is Seth? Even if it's Seth, I can't get behind thinking Seth has learned literally nothing in the time he's spent with us so far already. I feel like even if this really is him, his approach so far has been poor, even for him.

GrumpyGoomba wrote:Tbh I still haven't done anything useful yet... it'll get better I promise.

I don't like the acknowledgement of not having done anything useful to Dash at all, though. If you're aware that your posts aren't useful, you shouldn't be making them until your intentions are to help out around the thread.
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Chemist1422 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:01 pm

btw @Rick

I think the current numbers depend on whether we lynch the SK or not

On D1 that’s always a yes, after more town are dead than scum probably no
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:07 pm

I'm really unsure about Chemist and Phone so far. I want to like Phone in particular as I agree with him a lot already, but I don't remember this much confidence coming from him in my games with him where he was Town. Chemist feels a bit pensive too, but sure, I can buy his school excuse. I just expect him to chime in with more meta reading than only Zucker.

I like Flake's defense of tfios. I don't know if I agree with him about her, but I do really like how he's been approaching the issue.
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon May 13, 2019 12:18 pm

Rickdaily12 wrote:I'm really unsure about Chemist and Phone so far. I want to like Phone in particular as I agree with him a lot already, but I don't remember this much confidence coming from him in my games with him where he was Town. Chemist feels a bit pensive too, but sure, I can buy his school excuse. I just expect him to chime in with more meta reading than only Zucker.

I like Flake's defense of tfios. I don't know if I agree with him about her, but I do really like how he's been approaching the issue.

Did I sound confident? That's new
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon May 13, 2019 12:19 pm

Also how did get Dash and Chemist a townread on me from that less posts?
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon May 13, 2019 12:20 pm

Flake wrote:
Dash2 wrote:If anything, you're being a hypocrite. If I need to go and be specific about Uzay's meta then how about you show me all the games where tfios was town and had a bad entrance. You didn't do that, did you?

difference between being vague when not asked to explain something which should be obvious and remaining vague once asked to explain something unobvious to anyone but you because either you can't be bothered or you can't actually draw similarities between town!uzay and uzay here which can be observed by anyone, in which case i don't see how you even believe your metaread yourself

as for tfios thing

VFM48 (Town):
tfiosforevah wrote:yo whats up

im gonna hard claim cit bc y not


17F (Town):

"Let me get in on that cit claim action"

now play spot why i'd think tfios' entrance in this game would be NAI at worst

Does Flake do things like this when hes scum? Idk tbh

Feels townie though
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:20 pm

Phone0Ix wrote:
Rickdaily12 wrote:I'm really unsure about Chemist and Phone so far. I want to like Phone in particular as I agree with him a lot already, but I don't remember this much confidence coming from him in my games with him where he was Town. Chemist feels a bit pensive too, but sure, I can buy his school excuse. I just expect him to chime in with more meta reading than only Zucker.

I like Flake's defense of tfios. I don't know if I agree with him about her, but I do really like how he's been approaching the issue.

Did I sound confident? That's new

I mean, the last VFM you and I played, I remember you flailing way more than this as Town, and that contrasts a bit with how you talked about Dash and Seth this time.

I also love the taste of tinfoil, though, so I could just be overthinking it.
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Chemist1422 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:21 pm

Dash2 wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:Also how did get Dash and Chemist a townread on me from that less posts?

Mostly because entrance felt natural

Same
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon May 13, 2019 12:24 pm

Chemist1422 wrote:
Dash2 wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:Also how did get Dash and Chemist a townread on me from that less posts?

Mostly because entrance felt natural

Same

Same

Unserious LAMIST posts need to exist, agreed?
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon May 13, 2019 12:25 pm

Rickdaily12 wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Rickdaily12 wrote:I'm really unsure about Chemist and Phone so far. I want to like Phone in particular as I agree with him a lot already, but I don't remember this much confidence coming from him in my games with him where he was Town. Chemist feels a bit pensive too, but sure, I can buy his school excuse. I just expect him to chime in with more meta reading than only Zucker.

I like Flake's defense of tfios. I don't know if I agree with him about her, but I do really like how he's been approaching the issue.

Did I sound confident? That's new

I mean, the last VFM you and I played, I remember you flailing way more than this as Town, and that contrasts a bit with how you talked about Dash and Seth this time.

I also love the taste of tinfoil, though, so I could just be overthinking it.

Ah ok, tnx for explaining your read
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:25 pm


I LOVE YOU

Okay, so we're still waiting on two more people, then everyone's checked in.
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon May 13, 2019 12:25 pm

Flake wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Flake wrote:
Dash2 wrote:If anything, you're being a hypocrite. If I need to go and be specific about Uzay's meta then how about you show me all the games where tfios was town and had a bad entrance. You didn't do that, did you?

difference between being vague when not asked to explain something which should be obvious and remaining vague once asked to explain something unobvious to anyone but you because either you can't be bothered or you can't actually draw similarities between town!uzay and uzay here which can be observed by anyone, in which case i don't see how you even believe your metaread yourself

as for tfios thing

VFM48 (Town):
tfiosforevah wrote:yo whats up

im gonna hard claim cit bc y not


17F (Town):

"Let me get in on that cit claim action"

now play spot why i'd think tfios' entrance in this game would be NAI at worst

Does Flake do things like this when hes scum? Idk tbh

Feels townie though

yes i do probably

Bon bon Flake passes test, saying a thing he did could come from scum!Flake!

Flake feels townie
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon May 13, 2019 12:26 pm

Dash2 wrote:Chemist do you have anything of your own, instead of agreeing with what I'm saying

Same
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:28 pm

Phone0Ix wrote:
Flake wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Flake wrote:
Dash2 wrote:If anything, you're being a hypocrite. If I need to go and be specific about Uzay's meta then how about you show me all the games where tfios was town and had a bad entrance. You didn't do that, did you?

difference between being vague when not asked to explain something which should be obvious and remaining vague once asked to explain something unobvious to anyone but you because either you can't be bothered or you can't actually draw similarities between town!uzay and uzay here which can be observed by anyone, in which case i don't see how you even believe your metaread yourself

as for tfios thing

VFM48 (Town):
tfiosforevah wrote:yo whats up

im gonna hard claim cit bc y not


17F (Town):

"Let me get in on that cit claim action"

now play spot why i'd think tfios' entrance in this game would be NAI at worst

Does Flake do things like this when hes scum? Idk tbh

Feels townie though

yes i do probably

Bon bon Flake passes test, saying a thing he did could come from scum!Flake!

Flake feels townie

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

I was literally just about to bitch how he just self-metaed and you're rewarding him for doing this now

this is NAI 10000% and this response is just gross
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon May 13, 2019 12:31 pm

Rickdaily12 wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Flake wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Flake wrote:
Dash2 wrote:If anything, you're being a hypocrite. If I need to go and be specific about Uzay's meta then how about you show me all the games where tfios was town and had a bad entrance. You didn't do that, did you?

difference between being vague when not asked to explain something which should be obvious and remaining vague once asked to explain something unobvious to anyone but you because either you can't be bothered or you can't actually draw similarities between town!uzay and uzay here which can be observed by anyone, in which case i don't see how you even believe your metaread yourself

as for tfios thing

VFM48 (Town):
tfiosforevah wrote:yo whats up

im gonna hard claim cit bc y not


17F (Town):

"Let me get in on that cit claim action"

now play spot why i'd think tfios' entrance in this game would be NAI at worst

Does Flake do things like this when hes scum? Idk tbh

Feels townie though

yes i do probably

Bon bon Flake passes test, saying a thing he did could come from scum!Flake!

Flake feels townie

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

I was literally just about to bitch how he just self-metaed and you're rewarding him for doing this now

this is NAI 10000% and this response is just gross

How is self-metaing scummy, and this was the other way around o.O
Like boom townread its bad because selfmeta
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:36 pm

Rickdaily12 wrote: Spoiler: Don't self-meta. Especially, do NOT self-meta to argue that you're Town without being prompted to. I know this one always confuses people because a lot of people like to throw meta at each other and meta rebuttals, but if you're going to allow this and do this yourself then you render every meta argument you ever make as pointless.
Why, you might ask? Well, it's a very simple concept to grasp.
THE ENTIRE POINT TO META ARGUING IS THE POINT THAT [PLAYER X] IS NOT AWARE/ABLE TO STOP DOING [ACTION Y] AS [ALIGNMENT Z].
Too often I see so many arguments getting winded and dumb between people over the discourse of meta, and this point keeps tripping people up. It makes my eyes roll hard both as an in-game player and as a spectator. You cannot, especially when unprompted, argue how you are locked town for blah meta reasons. Especially when they only require interactions in the thread only. If you are fully aware of what you do as Town and how you behave as Town, you directly imply knowledge of how to act as Scum and can at least somewhat mimic it.
The moment anyone says "I'm Town if I do this, and I did this, proving that I'm Town", everything they say after this is bullshit. Even if it's true, even if it's genuine. Aside from being fakeable as hell, it's also a circular logic fallacy, which is a no-no. The reason any rational person gets tripped up in response to something as crazy as this is because you just took the time to admit you have knowledge on how to pass yourself as Town when you are Scum, and once we hit that point everything you say about your meta means nothing.
Which also brings as to a sub add-on:
Don't make someone else self-meta. At that point you're just being a jerk and you should admit not having any valid reason to read that person anymore.
Just let it go. Null read them and revisit that person when you have something more alignment indicative to read them on. Don't put them through this crap, it has a stupid amount of potential to launch into a nasty TvT suicide pact. Just save yourself a huge amount of suffering, whether you're the one doing it, or encouraging others to do it.

(I see myself doing this a lot this game)

TL;DR, it's not that self-meta is Scummy, it's that it's NAI. You can't refer to your own meta to argue whether or not you're Town. Claiming to be aware over aspects of your own meta implies awareness of how to fake your Town meta as Scum.

To be clear, I'm leaning Town on Flake so far, but self meta is always gross and always proves literally nothing reliable about the person doing it. It just proves that the person is aware of how to act and how not to act the day they roll scum.

If you want to TR Flake, there are absolutely reasons to do it, but this isn't one of them.
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:38 pm

Flake wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Flake wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:Does Flake do things like this when hes scum? Idk tbh

Feels townie though

yes i do probably

Bon bon Flake passes test, saying a thing he did could come from scum!Flake!

Flake feels townie

i probs do that as scum too

case in point
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Chemist1422 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:41 pm

Dash2 wrote:first friendly reminder of the game that spoiler tag exists so can we stop clogging the thread with long quote chains

Oh did you not hear

They got rid of spoilers for non-trusted

Also I don’t know why you’re under the assumption that I sheeping you and not that I had the idea separately but just posted it later
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Zucker » Mon May 13, 2019 12:41 pm

Dash2 wrote:
Chemist1422 wrote:
Dash2 wrote:I don't like how Zucker's "catchup" are only responses to me and they're all shadethrowing posts

/vote Zucker

Clearly you haven’t played with him before

Yes I realized halfway through catching up this was gonna be another one of those players.


I find the scummiest player and iso them! ^_^
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Dash2 wrote:first friendly reminder of the game that spoiler tag exists so can we stop clogging the thread with long quote chains

What? But... but you're using Franziska as your avatar...

She always loves to point out how I don't have any evidence when I bluff the shit out of her prove that I know what happened.

(but tbr yeah this is why I like to either trim relevant quote chains or spoiler them when they get too big)

Dash2 wrote:
Chemist1422 wrote:
Dash2 wrote:first friendly reminder of the game that spoiler tag exists so can we stop clogging the thread with long quote chains

Oh did you not hear

They got rid of spoilers for non-trusted

WHAT
WHY
WTF

Oh, right, I forgot this was a thing too.

Yeah, being NCM was not a fun experience at all.
"Don't lie this is all so you could post Ace Attorney gifs and have it be relevant isn't it." ~Sarah Thorpe

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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Zucker » Mon May 13, 2019 12:43 pm

Dash2 wrote:If anything, you're being a hypocrite. If I need to go and be specific about Uzay's meta then how about you show me all the games where tfios was town and had a bad entrance. You didn't do that, did you?


Tfios always feels like that with their Day 1 Citizen Claim. ^_^
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Re: VFM 49: Day 1

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:44 pm

Flake omg stop xD
"Don't lie this is all so you could post Ace Attorney gifs and have it be relevant isn't it." ~Sarah Thorpe

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