Spy Nerf

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: Spy Nerf

Postby MoustachioMario » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:00 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
Sylek wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Sylek wrote:What about making spy a unique role? No chance of having two spies to confirm each other.


The last thing we need is another confirmed town role. I'd say no.

If spy is made unique, like mayor, jailor or veteran, then there can't be more than one. If there's only one, I'm not sure how it's a confirmed town. Not all games have a veteran, but if there is a vet there's only one. Spy could be the same.


The problem with unique roles is that evil roles can't risk claiming them. If the only unique spy comes out and decides to out everything the mafia are doing every night (which they usually do), then there's literally nothing that can be done about it for the mafia. They can't risk killing the spy too early without fear of getting caught/wasting time thanks to TP roles. They can't fake claim it because once there's a CC, town will know one of the two claims is lying. And there's enough roles that already do that.

The spy itself needs to be reworked or nerfed because it's entire ability to track every little thing the mafia does is absurdly unbalanced because it's just a hard counter to the mafia.


I'd say let spy know x-1 mafia visits where x is the amount of mafia left.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Sylek » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:32 am

So with GF, Mafioso, and 2 RM, they see the mafioso and 2 RM visit because GF doesn't visit? It does help a bit in the late game, but doesn't really help early on as spy still sees all maf visits until one of the killing roles dies.
Building off of the OP:
Doesn't see all maf visits
Can see all whispers again (like the BM'er)
Visits show bugs and whether visited by mafia (Janitor can clean away evidence of maf visits as different suggestion)
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby MoustachioMario » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:14 am

Sylek wrote:So with GF, Mafioso, and 2 RM, they see the mafioso and 2 RM visit because GF doesn't visit? It does help a bit in the late game, but doesn't really help early on as spy still sees all maf visits until one of the killing roles dies.
Building off of the OP:
Doesn't see all maf visits
Can see all whispers again (like the BM'er)
Visits show bugs and whether visited by mafia (Janitor can clean away evidence of maf visits as different suggestion)


I meant it sees x-1 visits

so if gf doesnt visit he sees 2 visits if all rm visit someone
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:49 pm

The problem with spy seeing mafia visits is quite simple it requires no skill, Spy is generally a poorly desgined role even reworking it will take a lot of work
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:40 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:The problem with spy seeing mafia visits is quite simple it requires no skill, Spy is generally a poorly desgined role even reworking it will take a lot of work


I don't think that's the problem. There's skill to be had in interpreting the messages and making decisions based on them.

Do you have a preferred spy rework idea?
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Mace8937 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:41 pm

Might as well change Psychic too because its "Spoonfed" to them as well
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:47 pm

Mace8937 wrote:Might as well change Psychic too because its "Spoonfed" to them as well


Maybe, but the problems with Psychic are much more minor because Psychic results are spread randomly over the whole town, while the Spy has tunnel vision on a specific group of evils that it gets complete information on Every. Single. Night.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Mikemk » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:45 pm

Mace8937 wrote:Might as well change Psychic too because its "Spoonfed" to them as well

Except psychic visions are (at first) no more likely per particular person than randomly picking 3 people and saying one is evil would be.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:49 pm

I think it's funny how much Psychic manages to help the town when its results are frequently no more useful than "Here's a random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass".

The presence of Psychic in a game has the effect of stirring the Town into action and causing lazy townies to actually do their job... and that seems to be its primary purpose.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Villagerlover » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:51 pm

Brilliand wrote:I think it's funny how much Psychic manages to help the town when its results are frequently no more useful than "Here's a random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass".

The presence of Psychic in a game has the effect of stirring the Town into action and causing lazy townies to actually do their job... and that seems to be its primary purpose.


I think you're completely failing at realizing how terrible the Psychic really is.
It doesn't at all give a "random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass'. You're completely forgetting about the part where 1 of those 3 'random people' are 100% confirmed evil roles. No framing possibilities. No mishaps. No way to get out if it with a good play. You're confirmed evil.


The real funny part is supposed to be where a fake psychic is the one who pulls 3 random people out of their ass, and hopes to confuse town for days.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:03 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I think it's funny how much Psychic manages to help the town when its results are frequently no more useful than "Here's a random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass".

The presence of Psychic in a game has the effect of stirring the Town into action and causing lazy townies to actually do their job... and that seems to be its primary purpose.


I think you're completely failing at realizing how terrible the Psychic really is.
It doesn't at all give a "random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass'. You're completely forgetting about the part where 1 of those 3 'random people' are 100% confirmed evil roles. No framing possibilities. No mishaps. No way to get out if it with a good play. You're confirmed evil.


The real funny part is supposed to be where a fake psychic is the one who pulls 3 random people out of their ass, and hopes to confuse town for days.


The thing is, when a fake psychic pulls 3 random people out of their ass, they're pretty likely to be right. It isn't guaranteed, but it's highly probable (about an 80% chance). (This ignores the possibility of a Coven member intentionally making a list with no Coven in it, of course.)

So, any random Townie pulling a list of 3 people out of their ass would have quite good odds of providing Town with the same benefits the Psychic does, if the town would just follow them.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Villagerlover » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:09 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I think it's funny how much Psychic manages to help the town when its results are frequently no more useful than "Here's a random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass".

The presence of Psychic in a game has the effect of stirring the Town into action and causing lazy townies to actually do their job... and that seems to be its primary purpose.


I think you're completely failing at realizing how terrible the Psychic really is.
It doesn't at all give a "random list of 3 people that I pulled out of my ass'. You're completely forgetting about the part where 1 of those 3 'random people' are 100% confirmed evil roles. No framing possibilities. No mishaps. No way to get out if it with a good play. You're confirmed evil.


The real funny part is supposed to be where a fake psychic is the one who pulls 3 random people out of their ass, and hopes to confuse town for days.


The thing is, when a fake psychic pulls 3 random people out of their ass, they're pretty likely to be right. It isn't guaranteed, but it's highly probable (about an 80% chance). (This ignores the possibility of a Coven member intentionally making a list with no Coven in it, of course.)

So, any random Townie pulling a list of 3 people out of their ass would have quite good odds of providing Town with the same benefits the Psychic does, if the town would just follow them.


Where did you get this "80%" statistic? It came out of someone's ass ;p
Anyway, people should just learn the roles for Psychic that qualify as "evil" and "good"...or they could learn to play the game in general lol

This suggestion about the Spy Nerf is assuming that players are of about equal skill level, and depends on the role itself. I don't see how we could rework the spies hard-counter abilities without changing the role itself completely...which is probably what needs to be done.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:29 pm

Villagerlover wrote:Where did you get this "80%" statistic? It came out of someone's ass ;p


Number of players in a ranked game: 15
Number of townies in a ranked game: 9
Number of possible ways to pick 3 players at random out of all players: (15!/3!/12!)=455
Number of possible ways to pick 3 players at random out of just the townies: (9!/3!/6!)=84
% chance of picking only townies when picking 3 players at random out of all players: (84/455)*100%=18.46%
% chance of including an evil when picking 3 players at random: 100%-18.46%=81.54%

If I redo the calculations assuming that the fake psychic is a solo evil who won't list himself, the number changes to 76.92%.
If I redo the calculations assuming that the fake psychic is a faction evil who won't include anyone in his 4-member faction (but might include the NE or NK), the number changes to 49.09%.

Villagerlover wrote:This suggestion about the Spy Nerf is assuming that players are of about equal skill level, and depends on the role itself. I don't see how we could rework the spies hard-counter abilities without changing the role itself completely...which is probably what needs to be done.


I'm curious whether you consider my recent suggestion an example of "changing the role itself completely":

Make the spy a Tracker that targets roles instead of players
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon May 06, 2019 5:01 am

Brilliand wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:The problem with spy seeing mafia visits is quite simple it requires no skill, Spy is generally a poorly desgined role even reworking it will take a lot of work


I don't think that's the problem. There's skill to be had in interpreting the messages and making decisions based on them.

Do you have a preferred spy rework idea?


Removing the role or making it a parity cop.

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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby zzjay » Fri May 31, 2019 9:35 pm

How about separating bugs from mafia visits?

Spy can now chose to "bug themselves" a limited amount of times (1,2 or 3 times) and see mafia visits.
While they just bug a person they'll only see what happens to that person ( and eventually if mafia visited him that night...or just keep the bug as it is now)
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:05 am

zzjay wrote:How about separating bugs from mafia visits?

Spy can now chose to "bug themselves" a limited amount of times (1,2 or 3 times) and see mafia visits.
While they just bug a person they'll only see what happens to that person ( and eventually if mafia visited him that night...or just keep the bug as it is now)


Hey, a new idea!

I think this makes the Spy too weak, though. Part of the problem with the Spy is that it does almost nothing when the roles it hardcounters aren't in the game - this idea simply reduces its ability to hardcounter the few roles that it hardcounters, while giving it nothing in return.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby fwogcarf » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:25 pm

just remove spy and we'll call it a day
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:59 pm

fwogcarf wrote:just remove spy and we'll call it a day


Having a bad day today, fwogcarf?
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:21 pm



What's terrible, exactly? That's a link to one of your ideas. :o
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:30 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:That's a link to one of your ideas. :o

I know.


I thought you might. What I'm still not clear on, though, is: are you calling that old idea of yours terrible, calling my summary of it terrible, calling my act of linking to it terrible, or using it as evidence to call something someone else did terrible?
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Mikemk » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:26 am

And what's a parity cop?
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby EgyptFalcon » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:11 pm

Mikemk wrote:And what's a parity cop?


If I can use google so can you
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby peterparker » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:04 pm

I feel bad for the spy. People always want to nerf it into garbage. Why not just remove the role entirely. Not like my opinion matters or ill be around to play as it. But do as you please.
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Re: Spy Nerf

Postby Villagerlover » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:18 pm

peterparker wrote:I feel bad for the spy. People always want to nerf it into garbage. Why not just remove the role entirely. Not like my opinion matters or ill be around to play as it. But do as you please.


Well the problem is, BMG has stated before that they will not remove roles.
But they are totally open to a complete rework of them.
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