Ban Retributionist from Ranked

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Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby NateNate60 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:09 pm

Ranked is just so f*cking busted with Retributionist. This is just a no-brainer:

Retributionist cannot spawn in ranked games.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby DragonClaw66 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:55 pm

NateNate60 wrote:Ranked is just so f*cking busted with Retributionist. This is just a no-brainer:

Retributionist cannot spawn in ranked games.

I'm fine with this change but I don't want it to be permanent; as soon as it receives a rework that balances it, it should be moved back to ranked. If it ends up not being changed/still has a lot of power, it should be moved into the Town Power alignment that contains all powerful Town roles.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Tahee » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:47 pm

/support
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby panapparos » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:39 am

I like Retri, I wouldn't want to see it banned.

There are several ways to nerf it without banning it including:

- Retri can't ress any really powerful roles (Jailor, Mayor, maybe transporter - if necessary even TPs but I think that's too much)

- Retri takes two nights to ress the target (both nights need to be uninterrupted by escorts / consorts etc)

- Retri can ress Disguisers

-Retri shares spot with Jailor (so you either have retri or jailor) - if this is implemented no other nerf is needed and maybe retri could even ress twice (or once any role the second time only some weaker roles no tps etc)

...or a combination of the above
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby panapparos » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:36 pm

I wouldn't like to see Retri completely removed from ranked. It's a fun role. I believe it can be nerfed in one or several ways such as:

- Needing two (uninterrupted e.g. by escort / consort) nights to complete the resurrection


- Being unable to ress stronger roles such as Jailor or Mayor (maybe even trans / TPs?)


- Make Retri share Town space with Jailor so town gets either one or the other (in which case retri can get 2 resurrections but maybe have the second one work only on weaker roles)
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Djaouida » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:08 am

Pan87 wrote:I wouldn't like to see Retri completely removed from ranked. It's a fun role. I believe it can be nerfed in one or several ways such as:

- Needing two (uninterrupted e.g. by escort / consort) nights to complete the resurrection


- Being unable to ress stronger roles such as Jailor or Mayor (maybe even trans / TPs?)


- Make Retri share Town space with Jailor so town gets either one or the other (in which case retri can get 2 resurrections but maybe have the second one work only on weaker roles)

These ideas aren't bad but will get absolutely jumped on by the community.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby RetsamElddir » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:20 am

Don't get rid of ret it is a great role. Just buff mafia with something like Hypno ;)
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby qwatbattery » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:29 pm

Just make the ret a town amne
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby panapparos » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:47 pm

Flake wrote:It CAN be nerfed, yes, but whether these nerfs will fix what is inherently problematic about Retributionist is another thing entirely. It increases the PoE (process of elimination) power of the Town significantly by way of confirming two Town members, and also puts killing roles at -1 tempo; both facts used in tandem is extremely problematic. The former is especially unfixable, since even if some viable tradeoff punishment for using the ability were to be found, it doesn't matter - the game in it's current state is far too PoE dependent, making it a calculation game as opposed to a discussion/deception game. If the tradeoff punishment is too harsh, the issue of an increase in PoE would be largely fixed since the ability since the ability would not be viable, but now the existence role is completely futile. If the tradeoff punishment is too weak, the ability will be somewhat viable, and likely used in game - in which case, the issue of an increase in PoE is inescapable. So, even if you can theoretically fix the issue of Retributionist's power via a tradeoff punishment, the issue of an increase in the game's PoE as a result of the Retributionist existing will still be unfixable.


The best plausible attempt at fixing Retributionist would be one which offers a suitable tradeoff punishment when the ability is used (such that the ability is less powerful, but still not useless), and simultaneously increases the skill required to use the ability; since the ability would be less viable, we won't cause too much player skill swing by increasing the skill cap. However, the unfixable design issues arising from granting large PoE utility would still be existent.

Any nerfs which do not attempt to directly and effectively tackle the root causes of the design issues of Retributionist (huge PoE potential & no skill requirement) are largely futile, including yours.


I ll have to disagree with this. Retri in it's current state is OP since it greatly contributes to the PoE power of the town because it is very easy to use its ability (just need 1 townie dead and 1 uninterrupted night).

There are other roles which are even easier to confirm. Jailor (unless maybe he gets cleaned n1, janitor screws up retri as well), Mayor, Transporter. And let's not even mention 2 mediums, LO and TPs, escorts with spies etc. I agree that there is a bit too much of that in the game but that is not something related to Retri specifically. A town with TSes as RTs will have enormous PoE power even without Retri. This is also something to consider, if you remove Retri then as TS you will most likely get an easily confirmable town role anyway.

Of course Retri confirms 2 roles at once instead of 1 (not to mention 3 if there is a med as well). Consider, however, how the Retri is affected with the changes I proposed:
- First of all, and that's best case scenario, Retri revives on night 3 (day 4). On day 2 Retri will probably have to claim (vfr) or cc a TS claim, giving evils a much better chance to stop him. If town decides to protect retri until it revives, it leaves other important roles like Jailor unguarded.
- The fact that Retri takes up to night 3 (day 4) to revive means evils can now claim Retri with much better success. As it is now any Retri claim is asked to revive immediately and gets hanged if he doesn't. Now an evil role gets more time which hurts the town's PoE power. Furthermore, the fact that Retri can be interrupted more easily (since evils have 2 nights at their disposal) can cast doubts on whether a Retri failing to ress is in fact evil
* this can be augmented by making any mafia (or maybe only certain underpowered Rms like forger, disguiser or framer) visiting the Retri to be able to interrupt the resurrection process. This would also punish towns who vfr, which is imo a good thing.

By day 4 there are already several confirmed townies in various ways. Retri's power with the suggested nerfs is not unprecedented. Someone could claim that the game is too reliant on PoE but that is a problem with the combination of different roles and Retri would be in line in terms of PoE power with other roles.

Of course the above is taking best case scenario. When combining the 2-days-to-ress nerf with the nerf of only being able to ress certain weaker roles, then it is just as likely that the Retri won't be able to ress until night 4 (day 5) if the townie who died on n1 is Jailor, Mayor, Transporter, BG, Doc (and more roles can be added to make this scenario even more plausible. You could even make retri only being able to ress TIs or TKs if necessary). If evils can't get to him by this point, they deserve to have 2+ townies confirmed. Remember that any town who is taking the risk of protecting a Retri claim is leaving everyone else unguarded which is a huge risk considering that the retri claim may be evil.

Retri taking two days to ress also means he will be much more scared of Arso which will reduce meta. If retri asks TP LO and there is Arso, he will most likely get lit up before he can ress.


One fix for an issue that could plausibly still retain the Retributionist's main mechanic would be an increase in the skill cap in order to use the ability; perhaps some skill dependent requirement for which the player must meet in order to revive. But here we run into a similar issue to roles like Vigilante; because the ability is so powerful, making it's usage skill dependent means creating a large amount of swing in the role's utility due to deviation in the player's skill, and thus the Town's utility in general.


I can't think of any ways to make Retri skill-dependent without changing the role to something completely different. Medium doesn't require any skills either so it's not the only role with that attribute.

The role being fun to some people (I still don't understand why)


The reason I like Retri is that since that it easily confirms me and requires no real skill to use it's ability, it allows me to focus on scum reading and using my vote more effectively without concern about other aspects of the game.

should not take precedence when the role is (and almost certainly will always be) making the game mode's existential validity significantly worse by way of ignoring the main aim of the game mode; a balanced environment. If you want fun and a lack of balance, play literally any other game mode; it is being suggested that the role only be removed from Ranked for a reason.


Balanced games are extremely important to my enjoyment of the game which is why I play almost exclusively ranked even though it means I don't get to enjoy other cool roles, fun game modes or Coven content (i know it has ranked but players play very differently than in the original game's Ranked, at least the games I have played). That being said, I 'm not in favour of sacrificing role diversity from Ranked mode unless it is absolutely necessary. Since I disagree that Retri is inherently broken and believe that it can be brought to a normal level, I am against removing it from Ranked.

With the proper nerfs, Retri can be viable and fair in Ranked. There would still be the problem of easily confirmable TSes but that's an issue with RTs ending up being TSes rather than Retri and the Retri role can't be individually blamed on that front any more than Mayor or Transporter can. Other than that the only issue I have with Ranked are the underpowered RMs who could use a buff.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby CloudNine661 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:33 pm

I have an idea! This wont fix the "instantly confirm 2 townie" mechanic

But it will remove a more useful townie from the game in exchange

Proposed changes:
- Retributionist has to Sacrifice a townie other than itself to revive
- Retributionist has to select someone to sacrifice at night
- The person he sacrifices gets the message "You have been chosen as a sacrifice to resurrect [TOWNIE], Do you accept?"
- To which the person must accept
- Only towns can accept, however, evils can be selected to be the sacrifice, but nothing will happen and ret will get no message as to what happened

This helps evils because:
- They could claim retri (in a non retri game) and blame their lack of resurrection on someone not accepting the sacrifice
- To decrease the risk of selecting an evil and wasting a night, the Ret may HAVE to select a confirmed useful townie in order to revive that may include Mayor etc

HOWEVER:
- A mafia who knows who the retributionist can convince the Retributionist to sacrifice them, KNOWING that it wont work becaue they wont be a townie and make them waste a night
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby AnchorSaviour » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:48 am

CloudNine661 wrote:I have an idea! This wont fix the "instantly confirm 2 townie" mechanic

But it will remove a more useful townie from the game in exchange

Proposed changes:
- Retributionist has to Sacrifice a townie other than itself to revive
- Retributionist has to select someone to sacrifice at night
- The person he sacrifices gets the message "You have been chosen as a sacrifice to resurrect [TOWNIE], Do you accept?"
- To which the person must accept
- Only towns can accept, however, evils can be selected to be the sacrifice, but nothing will happen and ret will get no message as to what happened

This helps evils because:
- They could claim retri (in a non retri game) and blame their lack of resurrection on someone not accepting the sacrifice
- To decrease the risk of selecting an evil and wasting a night, the Ret may HAVE to select a confirmed useful townie in order to revive that may include Mayor etc

HOWEVER:
- A mafia who knows who the retributionist can convince the Retributionist to sacrifice them, KNOWING that it wont work becaue they wont be a townie and make them waste a night


It's a good idea but that could end up with an abusive strategy. Since only towns can accept it then a retri could go around seeing if one denies an important revive or not. It kind of acts like the next best TI role. It can also be used to push for a role from that person on why they would deny it. In this nerfing of the retri just seems to make it an OP TI.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby StrahmDude » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:15 pm

There are a few common recommendations that I really do not like.
1. Retri dies when they rez
This is a boring suggestion that makes the roles extremely boring. Yes, there is a confirmed town, if fills out the role list, and the dead can bring info from the grave. It works on paper, but it would make for a bad role to play.
2. Retri becomes that roles
Honestly, never really had much of an issue with it, but devs have said they will never remove the rez mechanic.
3. Not being able to rez some roles
This would honestly just be annoying. It isn't a bad fix, but it does feel bad.

Suggestions I really like
1. Being able to rez a disg. It buffs a weak role and makes the ret have to be a lot more careful.
2. Make the retri a constant in ranked.

Let me explain that second one. How powerful is jailor? REALLY powerful right? Can execute people, RB people effectively, and gather important info as well as be instantly confirmed. Why has no one really talked about nerfing the jailor? Because he is a constant. He doesn't disrupt games, because he is always there. If we did that for the ret, it would make town much more powerful, but at least people would be ready for it. They could build strategies around it. It would also make people a lot less quick to leave a game if they knew they might be rezed. Just a probably unpopular idea.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby CloudNine661 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:15 pm

AnchorSaviour wrote:
CloudNine661 wrote:I have an idea! This wont fix the "instantly confirm 2 townie" mechanic

But it will remove a more useful townie from the game in exchange

Proposed changes:
- Retributionist has to Sacrifice a townie other than itself to revive
- Retributionist has to select someone to sacrifice at night
- The person he sacrifices gets the message "You have been chosen as a sacrifice to resurrect [TOWNIE], Do you accept?"
- To which the person must accept
- Only towns can accept, however, evils can be selected to be the sacrifice, but nothing will happen and ret will get no message as to what happened

This helps evils because:
- They could claim retri (in a non retri game) and blame their lack of resurrection on someone not accepting the sacrifice
- To decrease the risk of selecting an evil and wasting a night, the Ret may HAVE to select a confirmed useful townie in order to revive that may include Mayor etc

HOWEVER:
- A mafia who knows who the retributionist can convince the Retributionist to sacrifice them, KNOWING that it wont work becaue they wont be a townie and make them waste a night


It's a good idea but that could end up with an abusive strategy. Since only towns can accept it then a retri could go around seeing if one denies an important revive or not. It kind of acts like the next best TI role. It can also be used to push for a role from that person on why they would deny it. In this nerfing of the retri just seems to make it an OP TI.


Except realistically, ret would then risk giving up their rezzing ability to do so. Of course what if it was a jailor or jester that was chosen, usually the sacrifice would've been discussed during the day or something. The "going around to see if one denies" how many nights would that waste, only to find it was a mayor that denied the sacrifice for obvious reasons. Plus someone can easily say that the retributionist isnt legitimate and say that the message never came up. The thing with this is that any evil can claim ret, and cause a mislynch, trusting that the town would trust a Ret claim over someone not accepting a sacrifice

I was thinking this creates a situation that is kind of like where there is 2 vig claims planning to shoot each other; like a GF claiming vig and saying that a townie is Immune, and a real Vigi who actually shot the GF (who was definitely immune). Why trust one over the other?
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby AnchorSaviour » Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:00 am

Except realistically, ret would then risk giving up their rezzing ability to do so.
If what you are proposing is that the Retri now has a limited number of ATTEMPTED revives then I would actually agree with your suggested change. If the retri had to sacrifice another town role to revive a much more needed role such as a mayor or jailor then that would be only a good change if they had a limited number tries to revive someone. If this is the case then I support your suggestion.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby AnchorSaviour » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:35 am

Offering my raw opinion here when I say this but I have no problem WHATSOEVER with the retributionist being available in ranked. I mean, it's just a role with a very niche talent. What's the difference if it "confirms two townies instantly"? A mayor does half of that in a single instance and so does a Jailor, a sheriff will become confirmed if he finds a mafia member and lynches it. I mean, it just sounds so sad that this is the most common excuse for nerfing the retributionist. It's completely and utterly useless dead, near worthless after the ability is used and is a VERY and I mean VERY easy target when revealed. Just reiterating, I have no problem with the retributionist and furthermore, I see no issue with it being available in ranked either.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Bodhrak » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:31 pm

If you are interested in random player opinions:
I'd vote for banning Ret from Ranked (and Ranked only) until it's reworked.

My main problem is not only how powerful it is, it's also incredibly easy to play, requiring virtually no skill at all.
D1: (Optional: Ask for TP/LO if someone else doesn't do it.) Otherwise do nothing.
N1: Do nothing. Most likely some Town role will die.
D2: Do nothing. If you have to claim anything, claim Med.
N2: Revive the dead town.
D3: /w the revived target as soon as the day starts.
You're done. You now have the bonus of not only being confirmed, but also a low priority target. You can leave leading town to the confirmed townie.

There is no counterplay to this. Ret may be killed N1 or be roleblocked N2 (by the consort that Maf may or may not have), but that's about it.
And that has nothing to do with counterplay, it's just RNG.

I also have to add that I think it adds to swing that TS roles can be rolled as RT at all.
I remember games that had a Ret, a Mayor and a Trans (and a Vet). Providing town with 6 confirmed roles by D3.
I also remember a game where town had three escorts and after there was no maf kill N2 they all just kept roleblocking their targets until we had all the claims and could slowly sort out the evil roles. Oh and the Arsonist also gave up after being roleblocked 5 days in a row.

Here's a different approach to solve that:
TS roles can no longer roll as Random Town (in Ranked only).
Med get's some way of confirming itself, to put it on equal footing with the others. (Maybe they can use their seance also when alive, this makes it still risky as they don't know if they or their target will survive the night).
And a lot of the swing in Ranked will be gone.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby asdf8765 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:06 pm

/support

Having a retri in a game confirms at least 2 people, confirms a TS role, and confirms all mediums / invalidates fake medium claims.

I just had a game, where SK miraculously killed jailor n1 (I'm serious. Jailor didn't jail anyone n1, it was in his will). and we thought, oh nice, evils are winning this one. But the next day jailor comes back, confirms 2 mediums (and the ret), and there was a trans. TP and TK died n2, and 1 spy died n1. So guess what, the only possible claim for evils was TI. And nobody trusts late TI claims. All this put together meant there were 5 unconfirmed roles, out of them 4 were evil. Town won the game d3 without doing anything.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby ThePublicDomain » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:35 pm

After reading countless discussions on this topic, I think this is a fine, if not should happen, solution.

Either this or alter it just for Ranked.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby JorgitoEstrella » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:27 pm

Plase Ban Ranked from the game, it's so obnoxious how even when mafia tries his best they even ended up losing due to Retributionist.

I'm not saying "remove REt from the game", just from Ranked.
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Back and Forth

Postby Villagerlover » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:06 am

I truly believe the Retributionist should have a rework from the ground up as Kirizie said.

I have seen so many threads and solutions like this, and I've even proposed my own before. But it just seems no matter what kind of "trade off" or "punishment" can be implemented on the revival ability itself, it's still none the less, a revival ability to only help the meta for town which is absolutely overpowered. Confirming 2 town roles and setting back all evil roles by 1 day is completely unfair for mafia, neutral killers, and the Witch.

Limiting the abilities of the revived person has been proposed, and my problem with that nowadays is that it really doesn't help the meta. A town role that is confirmed and will never be voted by other town members doesn't need an ability other than talking and voting. So reviving a nerfed jailor or mayor isn't going to solve the problem since the town still retains a voting power.
The retributionist sacrificing themselves to revive another town member has been heavily suggested, and heavily denied for good reason. That reason being that the retributionist's main ability would be boring because it literally requires you to kill yourself to help the town. And as far as I'm aware, it's not ever fun to be dead...with an ability like that, be prepared to see a lot more people leaving when they roll retributionist on the role wheel. I don't think a "trade off" is going to be worth it. I believe the retributinoist should have something that it can contribute to the town without any sort of requirement of killing itself.


The retributinisst has been the target of many unhappy balancers, and yet there still doesn't seem to be a way to work with a "revival" ability. So naturally it seems the only good solution for balance is to rework the role entirely.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby itaicool » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:01 pm

Mabye change it so the retri revive a player and then the play lives for 2 days and dies again? (The retri can only keep his soul alive for short duration)
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby MoustachioMario » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:45 am

I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.

I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life ;)
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:25 pm

MoustachioMario wrote:I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.

I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life ;)
People are also not supposed to be able to turn each other into vampires, or use voodoo magic to control the actions of others, or speak to the souls of the dead, but it still happens in this game.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby ThePublicDomain » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:44 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:I'm fine with this change but I don't want it to be permanent; as soon as it receives a rework that balances it, it should be moved back to ranked.


There really is not much to rework. It brings someone back from the dead, that is all it needs to do.
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