NateNate60 wrote:Ranked is just so f*cking busted with Retributionist. This is just a no-brainer:
Retributionist cannot spawn in ranked games.
Pan87 wrote:I wouldn't like to see Retri completely removed from ranked. It's a fun role. I believe it can be nerfed in one or several ways such as:
- Needing two (uninterrupted e.g. by escort / consort) nights to complete the resurrection
- Being unable to ress stronger roles such as Jailor or Mayor (maybe even trans / TPs?)
- Make Retri share Town space with Jailor so town gets either one or the other (in which case retri can get 2 resurrections but maybe have the second one work only on weaker roles)
Flake wrote:It CAN be nerfed, yes, but whether these nerfs will fix what is inherently problematic about Retributionist is another thing entirely. It increases the PoE (process of elimination) power of the Town significantly by way of confirming two Town members, and also puts killing roles at -1 tempo; both facts used in tandem is extremely problematic. The former is especially unfixable, since even if some viable tradeoff punishment for using the ability were to be found, it doesn't matter - the game in it's current state is far too PoE dependent, making it a calculation game as opposed to a discussion/deception game. If the tradeoff punishment is too harsh, the issue of an increase in PoE would be largely fixed since the ability since the ability would not be viable, but now the existence role is completely futile. If the tradeoff punishment is too weak, the ability will be somewhat viable, and likely used in game - in which case, the issue of an increase in PoE is inescapable. So, even if you can theoretically fix the issue of Retributionist's power via a tradeoff punishment, the issue of an increase in the game's PoE as a result of the Retributionist existing will still be unfixable.
The best plausible attempt at fixing Retributionist would be one which offers a suitable tradeoff punishment when the ability is used (such that the ability is less powerful, but still not useless), and simultaneously increases the skill required to use the ability; since the ability would be less viable, we won't cause too much player skill swing by increasing the skill cap. However, the unfixable design issues arising from granting large PoE utility would still be existent.
Any nerfs which do not attempt to directly and effectively tackle the root causes of the design issues of Retributionist (huge PoE potential & no skill requirement) are largely futile, including yours.
One fix for an issue that could plausibly still retain the Retributionist's main mechanic would be an increase in the skill cap in order to use the ability; perhaps some skill dependent requirement for which the player must meet in order to revive. But here we run into a similar issue to roles like Vigilante; because the ability is so powerful, making it's usage skill dependent means creating a large amount of swing in the role's utility due to deviation in the player's skill, and thus the Town's utility in general.
The role being fun to some people (I still don't understand why)
should not take precedence when the role is (and almost certainly will always be) making the game mode's existential validity significantly worse by way of ignoring the main aim of the game mode; a balanced environment. If you want fun and a lack of balance, play literally any other game mode; it is being suggested that the role only be removed from Ranked for a reason.
CloudNine661 wrote:I have an idea! This wont fix the "instantly confirm 2 townie" mechanic
But it will remove a more useful townie from the game in exchange
Proposed changes:
- Retributionist has to Sacrifice a townie other than itself to revive
- Retributionist has to select someone to sacrifice at night
- The person he sacrifices gets the message "You have been chosen as a sacrifice to resurrect [TOWNIE], Do you accept?"
- To which the person must accept
- Only towns can accept, however, evils can be selected to be the sacrifice, but nothing will happen and ret will get no message as to what happened
This helps evils because:
- They could claim retri (in a non retri game) and blame their lack of resurrection on someone not accepting the sacrifice
- To decrease the risk of selecting an evil and wasting a night, the Ret may HAVE to select a confirmed useful townie in order to revive that may include Mayor etc
HOWEVER:
- A mafia who knows who the retributionist can convince the Retributionist to sacrifice them, KNOWING that it wont work becaue they wont be a townie and make them waste a night
AnchorSaviour wrote:CloudNine661 wrote:I have an idea! This wont fix the "instantly confirm 2 townie" mechanic
But it will remove a more useful townie from the game in exchange
Proposed changes:
- Retributionist has to Sacrifice a townie other than itself to revive
- Retributionist has to select someone to sacrifice at night
- The person he sacrifices gets the message "You have been chosen as a sacrifice to resurrect [TOWNIE], Do you accept?"
- To which the person must accept
- Only towns can accept, however, evils can be selected to be the sacrifice, but nothing will happen and ret will get no message as to what happened
This helps evils because:
- They could claim retri (in a non retri game) and blame their lack of resurrection on someone not accepting the sacrifice
- To decrease the risk of selecting an evil and wasting a night, the Ret may HAVE to select a confirmed useful townie in order to revive that may include Mayor etc
HOWEVER:
- A mafia who knows who the retributionist can convince the Retributionist to sacrifice them, KNOWING that it wont work becaue they wont be a townie and make them waste a night
It's a good idea but that could end up with an abusive strategy. Since only towns can accept it then a retri could go around seeing if one denies an important revive or not. It kind of acts like the next best TI role. It can also be used to push for a role from that person on why they would deny it. In this nerfing of the retri just seems to make it an OP TI.
If what you are proposing is that the Retri now has a limited number of ATTEMPTED revives then I would actually agree with your suggested change. If the retri had to sacrifice another town role to revive a much more needed role such as a mayor or jailor then that would be only a good change if they had a limited number tries to revive someone. If this is the case then I support your suggestion.Except realistically, ret would then risk giving up their rezzing ability to do so.
People are also not supposed to be able to turn each other into vampires, or use voodoo magic to control the actions of others, or speak to the souls of the dead, but it still happens in this game.MoustachioMario wrote:I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.
I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life
DragonClaw66 wrote:I'm fine with this change but I don't want it to be permanent; as soon as it receives a rework that balances it, it should be moved back to ranked.
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