ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Gooose26 wrote:Change: Players will no longer know how a player died but instead will just see "____ was killed last night".
This removes some confirmability and nerfs the town. Now, evils will be able to claim within their investigative results without the bias that was there before (I.e. Serial Killer claiming Doctor on the stand). Although there are ways to watch killing patterns and break through this system a little bit, it is still a complete improvement across the board.
(Disclaimer: This thread was made and deleted, this is a remake)
KingoftheRocks wrote:also of course my combat trial
would end up f***ing a fire slime and become a half reptile
and being won
by giving a slime couple relationship counseling
Shilster wrote:Isn't this just a better Janitor? It can totally disable people, and yeah, it nerfs lynching. People who can't vote (especially Town members) are useless to their team.
YuuArtSui explained it pretty well.
KingoftheRocks wrote:Town:
Spy gets a buff, being the only role that can tell what role visits who. This means a spy can see if there's a SK, WW, Arso, whatever. Spy is bad, the problem here is Spy,
not the change.
Veteran hates this and has reported you for hate speech, as now he isn't the most confimable peice of Town, Scum to exist. Here is a fix, praise be to this fix
Vigilante gets the same problem, but not to the same extent. So does Jailor, but eh. Problem? You just told me something really good and then called it a problem
Mafia:
This doesn't do too much for them, but makes Janitor harder to play as (do we want to let town know we killed this guy as the cost of keeping potentially more dangerous info?) problem will now exist. True, but it does help with not confirming town in the situational circumstance that a townie is protected by Doctor and proving they aren;t mafia when NK still killed, or vice versa.
Neutrals: (love you)
Serial Killers: can disguise himself to look like a WW, which could give him a suprise attack on an important town role as TP will be on mafia targets every even night. Can also disguise as an Arsonist the same way he can now, but with morw help after he kills. Dont think this is the strongest strategy but yes
Werewolfs: Ehhh. People will probably figure out that there's a WW, but you can claim easier, and even stay home and claim VETERAN, which is such a ballsy move people won't even suspect it for a while. Yup
Arsonists: People will either know there's an arso by Day 3 or assume that it's a unlucky WW. This role is simply unaffected. Yup
Serial Killers do seem to get the biggest buff, as they can disguise as another role the easiest. Yup
Witch: Gets a nerf, actually. Because of the inability to find the NK, a witch could visit a stay at home WW when they otherwise wouldn't because they thought they were a SK. You do remember that Witch is told the role of who they controlled right? If they control the NK, they found the NK
All in all, seems good. Yup
/support Sweeet
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Algus wrote:anything that shifts the winrate out of towns favor is hurting the majority of the players in any given game.
Mystoc wrote:i agree with this change, but ur sk example wouldnt work
each NK has distinct way they kill so an extra kill every night would mean NK is SK
kills every other night means WW esp if two extra people die
no kills for a long time means asro
yes SK could fake being these roles by not killing all the time, but that is a low elo strategy that will loose you the game so doing it would be bad idea
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Algus wrote:I do not agree on winrates, you missed the point i made regarding them. Skilled players, anyone playing above silver and climbing are the ones with those winrates, not a specific faction. I even said the average winrate for -players- in a growing elo range. The fact that skilled players are maintaining a winrate as low as 51% means that no, changes like this are not needed.
Believe me, I liked the original game far better where scumreading and logic was the sum of the game, not metagaming; however your proposal inevitably leads to more of it, not less.
Having said that, I stand by every single thing in my post.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
KingoftheRocks wrote:Witch: Gets a nerf, actually. Because of the inability to find the NK, a witch could visit a stay at home WW when they otherwise wouldn't because they thought they were a SK.
All in all, seems good.
/support
Flake wrote:I don't really see any necessity to give Mafia such a large buff, especially since, at current, Mafia's win rate is hardly lacking. I think the Town shouldn't be ENTIRELY uninformed when Mafia kills for this reason. This would become a large issue when roles like Mafia and Serial Killer are present in a game; the overwhelming majority of the time, it would literally be impossible to know who killed who. At the same time, I don't feel Town should be entirely informed about all faction kills either. As such, I think it would be a good addition for Neutral Killing (and other Independent killing roles), given their low win rate and need for both survivability and claimspace. They can now claim Town Killing with less issues, among other positivies. As such, I would suggest the following (taken from my Ranked Overhaul):Generalised Death Announcements
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put in place so that there is some skill required in finding out who killed a player as opposed to simply "knowing" who killed who in all cases. This also indirectly gives a new use for the Medium; since a dead player will know exactly who they are killed by, a Medium can relay this information to the Town.
The new Generalised Death Announcements are as follows:
"They were killed by an Independent Force"
Can be: Town Killing, Town Protective (except Doctor), Neutral Killing, Neutral Chaos or Jester.
"They were killed by a member of the Mafia"
Can be: Mafia
"They were killed by a part of the Coven"
Can be: Coven
polypies73 wrote:@algus where did you get those statistics from? Cause I would disagree with those.
I mostly support the change. However I think town deaths should still be separated from mafia/nk. This is because the chaos of if there’s only one kill by a TK so it seems liek maf, even though an Esc rb’d maf, it’d be pretty swingy.
polypies73 wrote:@algus where did you get those statistics from? Cause I would disagree with those.
I mostly support the change. However I think town deaths should still be separated from mafia/nk. This is because the chaos of if there’s only one kill by a TK so it seems liek maf, even though an Esc rb’d maf, it’d be pretty swingy.
Flake wrote:I don't really see any necessity to give Mafia such a large buff, especially since, at current, Mafia's win rate is hardly lacking. I think the Town shouldn't be ENTIRELY uninformed when Mafia kills for this reason. This would become a large issue when roles like Mafia and Serial Killer are present in a game; the overwhelming majority of the time, it would literally be impossible to know who killed who. At the same time, I don't feel Town should be entirely informed about all faction kills either. As such, I think it would be a good addition for Neutral Killing (and other Independent killing roles), given their low win rate and need for both survivability and claimspace. They can now claim Town Killing with less issues, among other positivies. As such, I would suggest the following (taken from my Ranked Overhaul):Generalised Death Announcements
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put in place so that there is some skill required in finding out who killed a player as opposed to simply "knowing" who killed who in all cases. This also indirectly gives a new use for the Medium; since a dead player will know exactly who they are killed by, a Medium can relay this information to the Town.
The new Generalised Death Announcements are as follows:
"They were killed by an Independent Force"
Can be: Town Killing, Town Protective (except Doctor), Neutral Killing, Neutral Chaos or Jester.
"They were killed by a member of the Mafia"
Can be: Mafia
"They were killed by a part of the Coven"
Can be: Coven
Algus wrote:that being said, no I also do not agree with a 33/33/33 whatever (theeres 4 factions in the current ranked list but NE is a swing so I see why you dismissed it)
The majority of players in any given game will be town members, in order for any elo system to work at all, town would have to have the highest winrate of the 3 factions, followed by mafia, followed by NE (since they can get help from mafia/nk) followed by NK as they are an army of 1 vs 13/14. The idea of helping BOTH the mafia and the NK is poorly thought out in general, as the mafia doesn't actually need this kind of help. Other kinds, sure, see my post on Disguisers; Mafia rolelists could use some tweaking as would adjusting spy to not see deceptive visits (but in doing so they have to be rebuffed elsewhere, despite their situationally useful abilities, they are the worst vanilla TI currently.)
As for NK, find ways to help them that don't also help mafia in the process. The winrates (again, taken straight from the developers) of an average player in silver+ (which is where you balance a game, not around lower ranks) proves that the current system is almost keeping them barely above water in terms of winrate, despite the odds of them being town (who should have the natural highest winrate) being higher than the odds of them being any other role on average.
Now having repeated myself; find a new solution that helps NK's without indirectly helping mafia, who (as stated, do need some QoL changes) don't need to be straight up handed free buffs. Even my proposal gave them serious buffs with the balance being a rebuff to their nemesis TI. Mafias winrate is not as low as people pretend it is, as a skilled mafia can win any given game where they have a good roleset; which is another topic I touched on.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Algus wrote:Think very hard about what was just said. It's not rocket science; it's basic logic, which is what this game is all about. If, despite having higher odds of being on the highest natural winrate faction they still have a winrate barely over 50% as a skilled player, as a player that's played thousands of games, as a player that can scumread/keep track of wills/make logical decisions-- then as things are despite some feeling of injustice means that the current system IS in fact, working; As the "SKILLED" players are still moving up the ladder.
This idealogy that town needs changed is a side effect of mafia occasionally having shit RMs, or being demoralized in general; as they ARE MEANT to have less odds of winning. HOWEVER, this in no way, shape, or form means they are destined to lose.
Failure to plan is a plan to fail and all. The ones that actually try the ones that have the skill to truly convince and deceive and pick their targets right can win.
For the final time however, do not put a mafia buff under an NK buff guise; As you just showed that you were biased against mafia standing out in that suggestion. As for NK's; it's going to be obvious unless sk lies low or hits immune n1; unless ww stays home; etc.
This change helps mafia exclusively in fact and honestly doesn't help NK's in the slightest, as their kill signature is far easier to spot. Even if they do lie low it's going to be blatant if an escort dies visiting an sk; doesn't even matter if it's a werewolf if there happens to be 2 kills that night, or if its night 1, or if multiple people/mafia (godfather especially) die n2. It's going to completely rule out anything but SK out n1 and anything but WW out if 3 people die n2, and late game it's going to be obvious who an nk/arso is anyway. Lying low does not help them at all. Nor does this proposed change.
Now I hate walls of text but if you still miss my point, or even continue to ignore the more obvious flaws with the suggestion, (such as copy pasting system messages, which is absolutely what I'd be doing day 1 of this change -- IRL day 1 not in game -- as TK)
or the statistics alone then there's honestly nothing else I can do to dissuade you.
--to clarify, 5th page of flake's link (where you can clearly see me advocating for PLAYER SKILL being extremely important prior to any of this discussion, as well as the Dev statistics
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
JacksonVirgo wrote:Just a quick question before I write my entire thoughts on this, does the attacked target know who/what killed them if they die? "You've been attacked by a Serial Killer!" or similar?
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests