ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Gooose26 wrote:So you admit that Town (Power) and Citizen don't work in Ranked ToS. Of course, funzie games outside of ranked don't need to be balanced but when I say remove Town (Power) and Citizen I'm talking about TG, where we are striving to find balance.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Gooose26 wrote:Why isn’t it good for ToS fundimentals? I can think of multiple reasons but don’t know which ones you are talking about. I also don’t think you jnderstand what ethics are. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, ethics are moral principles that govern a person's behaviour or the conducting of an activity. So what ethics are preventing Town (Power) and Citizen from working in ToS but not in ToS?
ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~
Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general
Shilster wrote:Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general
Oh yes and BMG should remove the "of Salem" as well
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
BS4125 wrote:ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~
That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games
Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw
ProfessorArceus wrote:BS4125 wrote:ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~
That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games
Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw
Why does this all rely on a draw? Not testing in a ToS environment is stupid. I'll make a thread later.
BS4125 wrote:ProfessorArceus wrote:BS4125 wrote:ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~
That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games
Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw
Why does this all rely on a draw? Not testing in a ToS environment is stupid. I'll make a thread later.
Because roles aren’t tested in a balanced environment, therefore we don’t know if what occurs is due to the power it gets from swing from other roles or if it comes from the role itself. If we are testing for a balanced role, shouldn’t we make the conditions balanced?
ProfessorArceus wrote:BS4125 wrote:ProfessorArceus wrote:BS4125 wrote:ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~
That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games
Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw
Why does this all rely on a draw? Not testing in a ToS environment is stupid. I'll make a thread later.
Because roles aren’t tested in a balanced environment, therefore we don’t know if what occurs is due to the power it gets from swing from other roles or if it comes from the role itself. If we are testing for a balanced role, shouldn’t we make the conditions balanced?
I won't make a thread, then.
I believe I've told you this before; we don't test for balance. We test to see if a role works in the ToS environment. You don't test with 15 dependent variables; it just doesn't work. You can't expect all of your concepts to be implemented into the game at once. A role doesn't necessarily need to be balanced in order for it to work - we all know that the Jailor works relatively fine in the game, but it's definitely more powerful than many other roles. A vote means nothing. Hell, 50/50? If you're going to use a vote, then count mine for testing roles which will be implemented into ToS to be tested into the environment which it will be implemented into.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
orangeandblack5 wrote:The only true 1-tier Town game is mountainous. All other setups depend on randomly assigned roles to determine game outcome. Perfect mechanical balance is entirely unachievable, and I'm not convinced that it's worth scrapping Cits for less Town power variance from role to role.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Kirize12 wrote:You explicitly said that someone who is on the balance team and pushed to get one of their changes into the game doesn’t care about the game.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
orangeandblack5 wrote:It's not that it's too much work, it's that there comes a point where achieving perfect mechanical balance simply isn't worth the tradeoff. Citizen is pretty necessary for claimspace in most circumstsnces, and scrapping it will definitely have farther-reaching effects than improvement of mechanical balance.
Keep in mind that they had to be initially added, or else TG wouldn't have them right now. There were and continue to be many valid arguments for including Citizens in a game, and the tradeoff of more mechanical balance simply isn't worth losing all that cits bring to the table.
nice strawman btw
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.
I'd much rather play "find the scum" than "confirm the town". Citizens help with that immensely.
fwogcarf wrote:citizen is useless
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Gooose26 wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.
I'd much rather play "find the scum" than "confirm the town". Citizens help with that immensely.
The whole rt cant make claimspace argument you are making is just stupid honestly. It allows you to claim anything, not just claim that you do nothing and hope town believes you. Sure, it is easier to just claim that you do nothing, but there is no skill involved in claiming you do nothing. With random town, we can create claimspace as well as bring in the skill of using deception, something very important in mafia games, in what you claim. Claiming citizen is just trying to hide and hope you don't get caught, which is what leads to confirming the town because there isn't scumreading when you just claim citizen in a game of ToS.
If you want to play find the scum, then you will also have to support my Town (Power) removal as well as Citizen, and also my unknown cause of death change. Silent roleblocking wouldn't hurt but that's not perfect yet. You need to remove confirmability in order to avoid confirm the town games(Town Power/Town Killing/Roleblockers), but you also need to create deception. If there is no deception, the game comes down to whoever leads the town, which leads to massclaiming, which leads to finding town games.
orangeandblack5 wrote:Please stop strawmanning me thanks
Also unknown cause of death is such a no-brainer that it kinda hurts to see TG still tells you how people died
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
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