Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Remove Town Power
22
36%
Remove Citizen
39
64%
 
Total votes : 61

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:17 pm

So you admit that Town (Power) and Citizen don't work in Ranked ToS. Of course, funzie games outside of ranked don't need to be balanced but when I say remove Town (Power) and Citizen I'm talking about TG, where we are striving to find balance.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:56 pm

Gooose26 wrote:So you admit that Town (Power) and Citizen don't work in Ranked ToS. Of course, funzie games outside of ranked don't need to be balanced but when I say remove Town (Power) and Citizen I'm talking about TG, where we are striving to find balance.

With ethics, yes, with ethics aside, no. TPo and Citizens are the best for balance but not for ToS fundimentals


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:38 pm

Why isn’t it good for ToS fundimentals? I can think of multiple reasons but don’t know which ones you are talking about. I also don’t think you jnderstand what ethics are. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, ethics are moral principles that govern a person's behaviour or the conducting of an activity. So what ethics are preventing Town (Power) and Citizen from working in ToS but not in ToS?
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:32 am

Gooose26 wrote:Why isn’t it good for ToS fundimentals? I can think of multiple reasons but don’t know which ones you are talking about. I also don’t think you jnderstand what ethics are. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, ethics are moral principles that govern a person's behaviour or the conducting of an activity. So what ethics are preventing Town (Power) and Citizen from working in ToS but not in ToS?

If you were to implement TPo and Citizen, games would have to run way longer, between 1 and 2 hours, which is too lengthy for a simple game and boredom would arise quickly. Also, games are about fun and if setting up a game destroys that, then it’s not a game anymore. However, implementing TPo and Citizens is the best way to balance the game, it’s just the audience targeted will not be interested in the things that follow after. It’s nothing about skill level, that doesn’t matter, it’s about the fact it’s a game

It’s the ethics with the creators, not the players. It’s if they want to take into account that balance is the top priority or if they think that contentment of the players is the top priority. And judging by Shape not accepting Citizens into the game, they most likely think the latter is more important


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:18 pm

A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:28 pm

ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~

That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games

Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:59 pm

remove town in general
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Shilster » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:03 am

Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general

Oh yes and BMG should remove the "of Salem" as well
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:31 am

Shilster wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general

Oh yes and BMG should remove the "of Salem" as well

Not a bad idea tbf


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:00 pm

Alright, let's not meme on my petition -_-

But I'd like to say that it is important that TG can mimic a ToS environment. Frankly, with Town Power, it still can, as the town power roles are exactly like the jailor in the ranked rolelist, except we removed some overpowered roles and put them to role with jailor. That is the same system and gives off the same environment that ToS has despite being a little different. However, does that make this a good system? No, it doesn't. You can debate all about Town (Power) being great for Forum Mafia and TG Episodes, but these type of games do not mimic a game of ToS and it never will because most players who want to play ToS cannot play a month-long game. So what does that mean? Well, that means we cannot have these sort of games in TG to represent a ToS environment. Granted, the Episodes are still great for analyzing balance and finding exactly how much skill can be factored into victory, as that is brought out with more time in play, but it doesn't represent ToS. This is the exact reason that I am petitioning to remove Town (Power), because it does not work in a ToS environment, and TG needs to be made to balance a ToS environment. This is a very simple idea and a stupid thing to debate. The real debate comes in whether Town (Power) and Citizen can function in a ToS environment, and they can't, so let's debate it. I don't want the logistics of everything, I want balance and good mechanics to be the only factors in ToS, and we cannot do that when TG, which ToS *should* be relying on, is using trashy mechanical alignments like Town (Power) and denying people their ability to be as effective as others with terrible roles like Citizen.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:13 am

BS4125 wrote:
ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~

That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games

Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw

Why does this all rely on a draw? Not testing in a ToS environment is stupid. I'll make a thread later.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:55 am

ProfessorArceus wrote:
BS4125 wrote:
ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~

That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games

Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw

Why does this all rely on a draw? Not testing in a ToS environment is stupid. I'll make a thread later.

Because roles aren’t tested in a balanced environment, therefore we don’t know if what occurs is due to the power it gets from swing from other roles or if it comes from the role itself. If we are testing for a balanced role, shouldn’t we make the conditions balanced?


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:23 am

BS4125 wrote:
ProfessorArceus wrote:
BS4125 wrote:
ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~

That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games

Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw

Why does this all rely on a draw? Not testing in a ToS environment is stupid. I'll make a thread later.

Because roles aren’t tested in a balanced environment, therefore we don’t know if what occurs is due to the power it gets from swing from other roles or if it comes from the role itself. If we are testing for a balanced role, shouldn’t we make the conditions balanced?

I won't make a thread, then.

I believe I've told you this before; we don't test for balance. We test to see if a role works in the ToS environment. You don't test with 15 dependent variables; it just doesn't work. You can't expect all of your concepts to be implemented into the game at once. A role doesn't necessarily need to be balanced in order for it to work - we all know that the Jailor works relatively fine in the game, but it's definitely more powerful than many other roles. A vote means nothing. Hell, 50/50? If you're going to use a vote, then count mine for testing roles which will be implemented into ToS to be tested into the environment which it will be implemented into.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:33 am

ProfessorArceus wrote:
BS4125 wrote:
ProfessorArceus wrote:
BS4125 wrote:
ProfessorArceus wrote:A little irrelevant but we're talking about TG as Gooose said.
Most accurate Tess would be TG concepts in ToS environments. There is no TPo/Cit in ToS, so including these roles in the rolelist provides less accurate tests~

That brings up the whole argument of if we should test with ToS conditions, less accurate with balance but more relation to ToS standard games, or test in our own conditions, more accurate with balance but less relation to ToS standard games

Everyone is split, last time it was a 50/50 vote draw

Why does this all rely on a draw? Not testing in a ToS environment is stupid. I'll make a thread later.

Because roles aren’t tested in a balanced environment, therefore we don’t know if what occurs is due to the power it gets from swing from other roles or if it comes from the role itself. If we are testing for a balanced role, shouldn’t we make the conditions balanced?

I won't make a thread, then.

I believe I've told you this before; we don't test for balance. We test to see if a role works in the ToS environment. You don't test with 15 dependent variables; it just doesn't work. You can't expect all of your concepts to be implemented into the game at once. A role doesn't necessarily need to be balanced in order for it to work - we all know that the Jailor works relatively fine in the game, but it's definitely more powerful than many other roles. A vote means nothing. Hell, 50/50? If you're going to use a vote, then count mine for testing roles which will be implemented into ToS to be tested into the environment which it will be implemented into.

No, we do test for balance, if a role isn’t balanced then it’s swingy, if it’s swingy it effects games differently, if it effects the games differently then it’s unfair to warrant a win from skill and rather luck. If you want ToS to be more luck than skill based, when it is labelled as a strategic game, go ahead. Relatively fine is not good enough when we are supposed to be helping ToS rather than just accepting that everything as meh. Also, your vote was already counted


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:25 pm

Here's the way I think about it. If it works in a balanced environment in a balanced way, then it will be balanced for a ToS environment. This does not mean that we can get rid of all of the ToS variables, but it does mean we can make the environment more balanced. It's like when we test the roles, they would need a C to pass, but when we improve the environment they need a B, there's no harm except that we can be sure the role is good enough. We need to keep constants like the day-night cycle, lynching system, day length, etc, but we don't need to keep the same crappy roles.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:08 am

lol
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:27 pm

The only true 1-tier Town game is mountainous. All other setups depend on randomly assigned roles to determine game outcome. Perfect mechanical balance is entirely unachievable, and I'm not convinced that it's worth scrapping Cits for less Town power variance from role to role.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:21 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:The only true 1-tier Town game is mountainous. All other setups depend on randomly assigned roles to determine game outcome. Perfect mechanical balance is entirely unachievable, and I'm not convinced that it's worth scrapping Cits for less Town power variance from role to role.

So what you are saying is, rather than finding balance in everything that we can, you would just prefer that we only find balance in certain aspects of the game because some things are just too much work and fixing everything is "too much work" to do and thus doing work isn't necessary. That's cool and all, but just because you don't care about balance doesn't mean that it isn't needed, and because we need balance we also need this change.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:15 pm

You explicitly said that someone who is on the balance team and pushed to get one of their changes into the game doesn’t care about the game.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:42 pm

Kirize12 wrote:You explicitly said that someone who is on the balance team and pushed to get one of their changes into the game doesn’t care about the game.

No I was just saying that their argument was against the idea of balance, and thus, if just looking at their argument, they do not support balance. I merely believe their argument is misguided, but I'm not going into a personal level further than what is debated here.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:58 am

It's not that it's too much work, it's that there comes a point where achieving perfect mechanical balance simply isn't worth the tradeoff. Citizen is pretty necessary for claimspace in most circumstsnces, and scrapping it will definitely have farther-reaching effects than improvement of mechanical balance.

Keep in mind that they had to be initially added, or else TG wouldn't have them right now. There were and continue to be many valid arguments for including Citizens in a game, and the tradeoff of more mechanical balance simply isn't worth losing all that cits bring to the table.

nice strawman btw
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:27 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:It's not that it's too much work, it's that there comes a point where achieving perfect mechanical balance simply isn't worth the tradeoff. Citizen is pretty necessary for claimspace in most circumstsnces, and scrapping it will definitely have farther-reaching effects than improvement of mechanical balance.

Keep in mind that they had to be initially added, or else TG wouldn't have them right now. There were and continue to be many valid arguments for including Citizens in a game, and the tradeoff of more mechanical balance simply isn't worth losing all that cits bring to the table.

nice strawman btw

Claimspace is subjective to a rolelist. With a rolelist of 7 random town roles, you have plenty of claimspace. With no random town roles, you don't have enough. This means that there is an equilibrium to be found somewhere, not including Citizen. We can find ways to get claimspace, but we cannot find ways to fix Citizen.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:50 pm

Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.

I'd much rather play "find the scum" than "confirm the town". Citizens help with that immensely.
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No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby fwogcarf » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:00 pm

citizen is useless
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:23 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.

I'd much rather play "find the scum" than "confirm the town". Citizens help with that immensely.

The whole rt cant make claimspace argument you are making is just stupid honestly. It allows you to claim anything, not just claim that you do nothing and hope town believes you. Sure, it is easier to just claim that you do nothing, but there is no skill involved in claiming you do nothing. With random town, we can create claimspace as well as bring in the skill of using deception, something very important in mafia games, in what you claim. Claiming citizen is just trying to hide and hope you don't get caught, which is what leads to confirming the town because there isn't scumreading when you just claim citizen in a game of ToS.

If you want to play find the scum, then you will also have to support my Town (Power) removal as well as Citizen, and also my unknown cause of death change. Silent roleblocking wouldn't hurt but that's not perfect yet. You need to remove confirmability in order to avoid confirm the town games(Town Power/Town Killing/Roleblockers), but you also need to create deception. If there is no deception, the game comes down to whoever leads the town, which leads to massclaiming, which leads to finding town games.

fwogcarf wrote:citizen is useless

As much as I dislike Citizen, useless isn't the proper word. They can vote, speak, and act as targets to take hits for the town. They can still do work, I'm not against them because of the whole "they aren't fun" argument.
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