Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
25
38%
Yes, but as a new role!
18
28%
No!
22
34%
 
Total votes : 65

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:36 pm

Villagerlover wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again because I still stand by it.



It's an interesting role.
But it shouldn't replace the current jester.

Make it another role to put under the Neutral Evil category. Or put it somewhere else. I'm not too sure where you think it would fit best, but it should certainly not replace a key aspect of the game.


Incase it hasn’t occurred to you, whether it be because you genuinely don’t understand this role, or you’re playing dumb, this doesn’t replace anything - it solves a currently broken but key aspect of the game.

It still deters lynches, but now also deters night kills. Both factions can manipulate the Jester in an effort to gain the upper hand, current Jester is supposed to be used by scum to benefit them, it instead runs risk of nullifying it’s intended purpose by killing Mafia. Killing players in general is swingy, so that in and of itself is poor of the current Jester.

This removes that detriment and allocates a healthier meta to both factions, Mafia and Town alike. In doing so it solidifies it’s place as NB and is much better for balance than simply moving Jester to NB or leaving it as NE.

The video explains why it isn’t Neutral(Evil) mind you.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:53 pm

i will copy paste what i said 2 days ago since like two pages of commentes happened till you last looked at this role

=======================================================

I don't like this role has no way to get charges back its bad it can lose if it runs out charges no other role in the game is like this

a win condition shouldn't have charges it would be very unfun to play especially when on your last charge knowing if you use it don't get the prank off you die, i wouldn't want to play a role like this it would very unfun there needs to be a way to get charges back

========================================

do this instead

make its prank uses for a night prank and a day prank separate

1 night prank charge
1 day prank charge

these can recharge and come back

============================================

if it uses a night prank it cant do a night prank during the night next night (dying during the night)

it uses a day prank it cant do a day prank for the next day ( get hanged during the day)

if it uses both a day and then a night prank in a row without waiting to get the charge back its missing it cant use either any type of prank for 1 night/day

after that then both pranks will have 1 charge again
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:05 pm

So I didn't read all sixteen pages, it's simple too long so sorry if I repeat anything. But that being said, I feel the changes in the opening post are not a good idea. If you take away the town's ability to lynch and no evils voted guilty, then you are giving too major of an advantage to evil. On the other hand, if even one mafia votes guilty, then the entire mafia is at a big disadvantage since they need to kill every night and there will always be that one person who dumbly guilties. To fix this, those who dumbly guiltied should instead lose their ability to vote the next day which can be unbalanced under certain circumstances however, it is largely fair since it is rare for everyone of any side to vote guilty. I don't mind the jester not being neutral evil but benign though maybe chaos is a little better but that is just opinion, it's not that important of a detail. The big problem lies with the executioner. The role is already fairly annoying since it's too easy to lose early because of sheer bad luck. Becoming jester at least gives us a second chance. Perhaps instead even if they don't get their target lynched, they win when all of town is gone. This way there is a second chance and more than one neutral evil.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:22 am

Parallax7 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again because I still stand by it.



It's an interesting role.
But it shouldn't replace the current jester.

Make it another role to put under the Neutral Evil category. Or put it somewhere else. I'm not too sure where you think it would fit best, but it should certainly not replace a key aspect of the game.


Incase it hasn’t occurred to you, whether it be because you genuinely don’t understand this role, or you’re playing dumb, this doesn’t replace anything - it solves a currently broken but key aspect of the game.It replaces current Jester

It still deters lynches, but now also deters night killsNo other role does this! Oh wait... there's Vet,medusa,Werewolf, vigi suicide, loss of executions for jailor, and many others. Both factions can manipulate the Jester in an effort to gain the upper hand, current Jester is supposed to be used by scum to benefit them, it instead runs risk of nullifying it’s intended purpose by killing MafiaThat is not as likly as a Jester killing a townie, and all roles that can kill or do anything will harm their team. Witch is a good example of this, while it is a NE it can send mafia into a vet, or make vig kill a gf, does this make it a bad role? NO! It's just that all NE's have the ability to harm evils and/or benifit town.. Killing players in general is swingy, so that in and of itself is poor of the current Jester.

This removes that detriment and allocates a healthier meta to both factions, Mafia and Town alike. In doing so it solidifies it’s place as NB and is much better for balance than simply moving Jester to NB or leaving it as NE.

The video explains why it isn’t Neutral(Evil) mind you.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:48 am

Parallax7 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again because I still stand by it.



It's an interesting role.
But it shouldn't replace the current jester.

Make it another role to put under the Neutral Evil category. Or put it somewhere else. I'm not too sure where you think it would fit best, but it should certainly not replace a key aspect of the game.


Incase it hasn’t occurred to you, whether it be because you genuinely don’t understand this role, or you’re playing dumb, this doesn’t replace anything - it solves a currently broken but key aspect of the game.

It still deters lynches, but now also deters night kills. Both factions can manipulate the Jester in an effort to gain the upper hand, current Jester is supposed to be used by scum to benefit them, it instead runs risk of nullifying it’s intended purpose by killing Mafia. Killing players in general is swingy, so that in and of itself is poor of the current Jester.

This removes that detriment and allocates a healthier meta to both factions, Mafia and Town alike. In doing so it solidifies it’s place as NB and is much better for balance than simply moving Jester to NB or leaving it as NE.

The video explains why it isn’t Neutral(Evil) mind you.


First of all, assuming I do not understand the english language that I had to read through on your role idea, or assuming I am playing dumb will not make me want to agree with your idea more. If anything, it deters me as a viewer. Even if my points are flawed, it doesn't make your points flawless, so keep some respect for the criticism you're asking for on these forums, mind you.

Now for my points with the role:
It does replace something. (The current jester).
You say both factions can manipulate the jester with this idea, which is true. But I thought the entire point of this rework was so that the jester wasn't used as a weapon when discovered? What is preventing the jester from simply revealing themselves, offering themselves as a weapon to either side? Sure, a Jailor and Vigilante might be obliged to kill them at night, but why would they do that if they know they might get pranked? And again, as I've mentioned earlier, if the town loses majority in voting, the non-town roles can easily lynch the revealed jester without any consequences, as it's lynch only hurts the town. This is a major flaw, as you're essentially turning the jester into an free-win weapon instead of giving it the premise of a role that's supposed to be challenging.

Mentioning that, another major flaw I have with this idea, as I've said before, is that it's goal is too easy. It is a role that has the ability to win by being killed at night. No role should ever have such an ability because it's too easy to pull off. Even if it is limited. No one should ever desire to die during the nighttime in order to have a way to win. Because at that point, it turns into a game of predicting when you'll die at night so that you can win, which takes much less effort than trying to trick an entire town into getting you on the ropes.

This role will be treated like a second veteran that opposes everyone.
No one wants to touch a revealed jester because everyone is afraid of touching it, or killing it at night because of the possibility of getting pranked. And due to that, in the event that the jester remains untouched, they become...a kingmaker! Sure, the current jester can fall under the same status, but this role would definitely be a kingmaker waaaaaaaaaaay more often. Cause literally no one wants to touch this prankster. And that's not a good thing.
I'll take the veteran for a great comparison. Once a veteran is revealed, no one is ever going to visit them again unless an evil role is foolish enough to believe they can snipe the veteran (a rare occurrence, as there is almost always better targets). This role is essentially a 2nd veteran that will eventually become a Kingmaker. Once a Jester is revealed to the public, no one is ever going to visit them again, or attempt to lynch them, which is quite awful.
People should have an ability to deal with a role that can threaten them instead of simply hoping they aren't about to double cross them. This role doesn't allow that. No one wants to suffer the consequences of lynching or killing it.

Now what about jesters that choose not to reveal?
Well then we can expect to see a lot more guessing-when-I-will-get-killed-at-night jester's instead of what we have now. This role is under no obligation to trick an entire town when all it has to do is (go on alert) pull a prank at night, and await to get killed. Am I saying it's going to be successful all the time? No. But the fact of the matter is, most humans playing this game are going to exploit the hell out of dying at night a lot more than trying to take the more challenging route. But in the instances where it does work (which would be a lot more frequent than getting lynched), the evil roles are going to suffer a lot more than the town's voting power.

This new role, as I've said before, does not fix anything as far as I can see. It still acts as a weapon. It can still receive free wins, it's still able to become a kingmaker(which would be a lot easier to do), and isn't nearly as challenging as the original jester.
The only thing that I think is possibly good is that it goes under Neutral Benign, which isn't even on the ranked role list anymore.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
I think this role concept/idea is pretty neat. It could be it's own thing.

But it should not replace the current jester.


/No support
Last edited by Villagerlover on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Schultz128 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:07 am

Schultz128 wrote:tldr switch Executioner/Jester to NB and make it so Witch can win after death so they can work more daringly to sponge up shots or take risks for Mafia/Neutral Killer

Anything that has a wincon besides eliminating another faction or being the last one should be considered as NB as they are interested in their own goals and mindsets and in theory don't care who they help or fuck over, so long as they win.

Neutral Evils by Town of Salem standards should be scum sided only.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby BS4125 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:53 pm

Schultz128 wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:tldr switch Executioner/Jester to NB and make it so Witch can win after death so they can work more daringly to sponge up shots or take risks for Mafia/Neutral Killer

Anything that has a wincon besides eliminating another faction or being the last one should be considered as NB as they are interested in their own goals and mindsets and in theory don't care who they help or fuck over, so long as they win.

Neutral Evils by Town of Salem standards should be scum sided only.

I second this

With also some adjustments concerning Jester and Executioner as NBs, Executioner can have their target be scum or town as NB or Kirize's overhaul. Jester either make more strategic, like it's lynched on even nights it loses (thanks for that suggestion Schultz) or remove it because it gives bad scum an easy loophole out of situations

This is however so distant from Jester, it should just be a new role tbf

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Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:09 pm

10,000 VIEWS

Thank you for the support and views. All I can say is this change has been noticed by a developer, and something could manifest. Cheers!
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby BackwardsInTime » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:22 pm

Bodyguard will fail to fight off targets


i think you should remove this because it would favor the evils, and you want this role to be more neutral. if they see that the vigilante shot the jester, then they could go after any protected roles with almost no repercussions (if there is no doctor).
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Mystoc » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:23 pm

BackwardsInTime wrote:
Bodyguard will fail to fight off targets


i think you should remove this because it would favor the evils, and you want this role to be more neutral. if they see that the vigilante shot the jester, then they could go after any protected roles with almost no repercussions (if there is no doctor).


that not what happens when bg protects them

all tp always heals the person the person isn't saved because the attacker died they did have a powerful; defense that night from the first attacker (in BG and trappers and crusaders place)

it's this in this order

BG gives the target powerful defense from visitors
then
BG attacks attacker with a powerful attack
then
BG is attacked by an powerful attack from the game (and usually dies)


in short bg would just be like doctor with jester debuff the second two things don't happen (lore wise it doesn't make sense but game mechanics wise that's how it would work)

i do notice parallax didn't mention trapper or crusader (did you just feel like leaving out expansion stuff or do those roles still get to actually still kill people?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:13 pm

I left out expansion stuff intentionally.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby mrminecraft03 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:20 am

My brain is confused.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:45 pm

mrminecraft03 wrote:My brain is confused.


Why?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 pm

Hey, Survivor helps evils. It should be Neutral Evil. Amnesiac too. GA as well.

They're Neutral Benign because they can help evils, but they can also help Town. I would suggest rereading the OP, because it's quite obvious that the role can hurt evils as well as help them.

Also, why should Town have any risk in lynching a "potential obvious evil role"? If evils are being obvious, they should die, because they're playing poorly and deserve it. If a Townie is acting like an obvious evil role, then Town gets punished by losing a Townie. Jester just gives players an excuse to play poorly and not get punished like they should.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:07 pm

Flake wrote:Here are my rework ideas for the Jester and the Executioner (since the Executioner seems to be relatively relevant in this post) while keeping them Neutral Evil roles, so that they can be kept in Ranked:

Jester:

- The Jester can only win if they exist (as a haunting spirit or an alive player) to see the Town lose the game.

- The Jester has basic defence the first time they are attacked (similar to the Witch). Other than this, they are NOT Night Immune, so long as they have not been lynched.

- If the Jester is lynched at any stage in the game, they will die, but will be able to function identically to an alive player - truly as if the Jester is haunting the Town. They are able to talk in the Alive chat (text will be greyed out, like in the dead chat) and vote, but they have no night actions.

- If the Jester is lynched, they will still appear on the User List, but will not have a box next to their name at any point (cannot be targeted at night or voted in the day). As such, since the Jester is a spirit from the dead, they are untouchable. They have Night Immunity, Lynch Immunity and Execute Immunity (since they can never be targeted).

- Basically, the Jester is untouchable after they have been lynched, since they are a spirit. They now exist solely to help evil roles win.

- Town's Punishment: If the Jester is lynched, no one will be able to vote the following day, which buys evil roles more time as the Town's killing power is reduced temporarily. As well as this, the Town now has to deal with an unstoppable evil role.

- If the Jester dies due to anything other than a lynch, they automatically lose the game.

- The Jester can still win having not gotten lynched, so long as they exist to see the Town lose (either as a haunting spirit or an alive player) they win the game.


Executioner:

- The Executioner can only win if they live to see the Town lose the game.

- The Executioner has basic defence the first time they are attacked (similar to the Witch). Other than this, they are NOT Night Immune, so long as their target has not been lynched.

- After seeing the Executioner get someone killed, everyone is terrified of even going near the Executioner, else they too might end up dead. As such, if the Executioner lynches their target successfully, they are no longer targetable (box next to their name never appears) since everyone is too scared to go near them. This means they are immune to any night abilities or any day abilities (including voting).

- Basically, the Executioner CANNOT die after their target has been successfully lynched - they now exist solely to help evil roles win.

- Town's Punishment: The Town is punished since the Town has lost one member, and now has to deal with an unstoppable evil role.

- If the Executioner dies, they automatically lose the game, similarly to the Witch.

- The Executioner can still win having not gotten their target lynched, so long as they live to see the Town lose, they win the game.

If you have a new idea, make a different thread instead of hijacking his.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:53 pm

Parallax7 wrote:10,000 VIEWS

Thank you for the support and views. All I can say is this change has been noticed by a developer, and something could manifest. Cheers!

Although I'm a supporter of the change, I'm still a little salty that it has been acknowledged by a dev without going through TG. Anyways, congrats!
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby BS4125 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:49 am

Gooose26 wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:10,000 VIEWS

Thank you for the support and views. All I can say is this change has been noticed by a developer, and something could manifest. Cheers!

Although I'm a supporter of the change, I'm still a little salty that it has been acknowledged by a dev without going through TG. Anyways, congrats!

It’s only because he was the only one to actually DM the Devs and only suggest his idea

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:29 am

It's almost as if the Devs don't use TG like they should, and thus changes to the game are not always going to come from there

Flake wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Hey, Survivor helps evils. It should be Neutral Evil. Amnesiac too. GA as well.

They're Neutral Benign because they can help evils, but they can also help Town. I would suggest rereading the OP, because it's quite obvious that the role can hurt evils as well as help them.

Also, why should Town have any risk in lynching a "potential obvious evil role"? If evils are being obvious, they should die, because they're playing poorly and deserve it. If a Townie is acting like an obvious evil role, then Town gets punished by losing a Townie. Jester just gives players an excuse to play poorly and not get punished like they should.

Yeah, I re-read it after I had just posted and edited it accordingly. Though, I still disagree entirely with the Jester being Neutral Benign, purely because it would not exist in Ranked (and I personally think the Jester is necessary in Ranked, see below) and also "Neutral Benign" doesn't exactly fit the Jester's lore, at all. The literal definition of "Benign" is to be "gentle and kind", which the Jester is obviously not. The Amnesiac and Survivor are benign because they do not directly WANT to harm anyone while they are that role - this is obviously not the case for the Jester.

Also, I worded what I said poorly. I meant that evil roles should be able to act like a Jester so that they don't get lynched, i.e a plausible escape route. The argument you bring up is a weakness of the Jester as a whole rather than what I am saying, and I agree with it. Though, conversely, the Town shouldn't be rewarded for a lack of thinking and simply lynching an evil because "obvious evil" - they should be required to think more before lynching someone. I also think that there should be more risk in the Town's most powerful weapon, and the Jester's existence is the only real solution to fix this problem.

Lore can be changed, it is no argument for balance at all. Lore can be changed without changing the game at all, whereas balance can screw everything up, so balance first, and write the lore to fit that after.

Evil roles shouldn't be able to act like Jester. You just said how Town shouldn't be rewarded for a lack of thinking - but you're saying they should be able to act like Jester, evils that is, which means evils should be rewarded for a lack of trying to play properly. Town should be rewarded for lynching an obvious evil(unless that evil is a Townie who is just playing poorly, that's a threat as well) because evildoers need to act like Townies. The risk to Town's most powerful weapon as you call it is that you can lynch Townies and waste a day doing so. That's where evils playing actually good comes in, if an evildoer convinces you they're a Townie, they can cause a mislynch, and if they're really good, they can get away with it without dying. So there is a risk to lynching, and it doesn't come from Jesters letting evildoers play poorly and living.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:44 am

Why is there no "no" option?
Yes they can fix Jester without making it Nb like I said make it so Jester is NE and Town will lose their vote for a day

Makes it help evils more without changing it into some crappy chucked Nb role

I love you auto correct
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:54 am

It's a "Petition", and you don't sign a petition to say no.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:00 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:Why is there no "no" option?
Yes they can fix Jester without making it Nb like I said make it so Jester is NE and Town will lose their vote for a day

Makes it help evils more without changing it into some crappy chucked Nb role


Let's put a no option in a petition to cure cancer.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:25 pm

If they get to a point where Town has basically won, where all of or almost all of the Townies are confirmed, is that not a result of them not playing good enough? If the Town have gotten to that point, I think they've simply played better, so in comparison, the evils player poorly.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:43 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Why is there no "no" option?
Yes they can fix Jester without making it Nb like I said make it so Jester is NE and Town will lose their vote for a day

Makes it help evils more without changing it into some crappy chucked Nb role


Let's put a no option in a petition to cure cancer.



Oh sorry but I think if your going to have a vote there should be a no option but that's just me hey.

I'm sorry if I'm not a mindless robot who agrees with every idea when their are simpler ways of fixing things
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:47 pm

If you don't agree, don't vote, easy.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:54 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:If you don't agree, don't vote, easy.


That's like if YouTube only had a like system.

It's better to know how much people Also disagree with it this could annoy a lot of people when they make big role changes.

I know it's only a idea but I don't think it's really worth changing Jester and Executioner into NBs

Executioner is not broken, and Jester only need a small change to fix it

I do get that Witch is a lot different to Jester and Executioner, and there should be more roles like Witch (like Warlock) and maybe categorise Jester and Executioner something other then NE.
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