Med/Ret Overhaul-Mystic

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

We all know the feeling, being a useless ret that has used their revive, or being the Medium that isn't getting any good info from the dead. Sitting there, watching the town fail, waiting to get slaughtered. Or we died N1 in a ranked game. Can't leave, won't be revived, and you are forced to close the tab-against policy-or wait the game out. Enter Mystic!

Got one vote in TG poll...(my own) Is this really that bad?

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Mystic
Attack(none) Defense(none)
Alignment: Town(Support)
(Unique)
Abilities:
(While Living)
-Can speak with the dead at night
-Can revive one person, at expense of your own life
(While dead)
-Can choose to possess a player during the night
-Can speak to the living through a possessed player up to 3 times(cannot possess same person twice in a row)
-You may not vote
Goal-Lynch all evildoers
Investigative results-Investigator-Your target works with the dead, they could be a Janitor/Mystic/New role. Sherrif-Your target it not suspicious. Consigliere-Your target speaks for the dead. They must be the Mystic!
You must kill: Mafia, Serial Killers, Witches, Werewolves, Arsonists, Vampires
You win with: Survivor, Jester, Executioner
You may spare anyone else

Possess
-You may speak, vote, and perform actions as normal
-A dead Mystic can speak through you, meaning the town will not be able to tell if you speak as you or the Mystic.
-You cannot possess a revealed Mayor


Now, this add a whole new dimension to the game, not only are there less useless town roles, but there is now strategy in being dead. A dead mafioso could convince the mystic to tell the town to lynch the wrong person. People have a reason to stay in the game, as the Mystic doesn't simply revive one guy and be done, they represent the dead. Also, people can claim possessed if they slip up. this role could potentially be reworked as a Neutral(Chaos) role if this doesn't work out.

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

If nobody replies I can't help the role at all...

[Blayzeatron]

It's really annoying when no-one can be bothered to reply, spend all the effort and no-one even responds.

Spoiler:

(While dead)

-You may not vote

Possess
-You may speak, vote, and perform actions as normal

So can you vote while possessed or not?

Does the possession last for only the following day? Or into the night. 'you may ... perform actions as normal' Does that mean you could use the day ability of whoever you possess? That is, the Jailor, Mayor and Pirate?
Spoiler: I am actually incredibly impressed by this rework concept. It gets rid of multiple mediums from the town. It gets rid of ret confirmed 2+ people in one go (as there will be no meds to confirm and the mystic will die in the process so only the resurrected person becomes confirmed.

My biggest concern is that this role may be too powerful in its ability to win late game scenarios if it is able to use the vote of the possessed. A 2v2 situation could be won using this role.

The other concern is that a new TS role would need to be created to fill the gap.

[Mystoc]

so you buffed the ret? that was your idea combine both roles?

this is ret but you gave it extra stuff, you didn't buff meduim you removed it and gave the buffs to ret, since ret is the more important its a pure buff to ret

you also did not consider they are now only 4 town supports now escort transporter mayor mystic

if town support has 5 roles

1/5 =20% chance to get ret

now only 4 roles

1/4 = 25% chance to get ret

not only did you buff the ret by removing meduim you upped its chance of appearing in games, ret is the most powerful role in the game uping is appearance rate is a horrible idea

keep in mind i'm not taking random town into these calculations when making these calculations but if any town rolls town support even 1 out of 3 time the odds of getting this new buffed ret goes up significantly

you cant justify buffing meduim by removing it then adding its abilities to ret, keep meduim as its own role and buff that adding more stuff to ret is a horrible idea

==========================================================

also possessing is an evil thing town should not be able to possess it doesn't fit town at all,
-making a person say stuff they don't want to say will mess the reporting system
-and you gave it unlimited possessions also meduim only has two uses of it ability while dead why does it get unlimited uses it would be very annoying if possessed the same person again and again so they could never talk

even though it think idea is horrible of combining the two roles hypothetically it's better to just keep how meduim is now and let them seance while dead like it does now

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

Blayzeatron,

The Possess section is intended to be a definition of an effect when it happens to you, like Heal, so No, the Mystic can't use the day ability of the possessed person. The effect only lasts one day. The Mystic can't vote as the possessed person, so the faceoff scenario is not a problem. One of the great things i believe, personally, about this role is it does open up an opportunity for a new Town(Support) role.

Mystoc,

I thought that the Medium and Ret were underpowered and boring to play on their own, so yes, I combined their roles. However, I tried to combine them in a way that satisfies both roles, yet gives them a huge boost. I did not intend to make this a super-buffed ret. I very carefully considered that fact that there is no a gap in Town(Support), and I figured this brought in new opportunities for new role-creators like you can make and actually get a new role into the game as Town(Support). As you said with the appearance rate, I would actually recommend making it a 100% fixated role like Jailor in ranked, as it provides a reason for dead players to stay in game, and provides many new game dynamics. Mystic is unique, so the multiple Mystics are not an issue. I may add, Mystoc, that Blayzeatron disagrees with this being an outright 'horrible idea'. Also, does kidnapping people and dragging the out of their homes for intense questioning and possible murdering them on the spot sound evil to you? (Jailor) With the reporting system, I thought about this, but decided that if the trial system were to be updated with a message filter that shows when the player is speaking as possessed, the reports would not be a problem. I changed the Mystic to make it so they can't possess the same person twice in a row. The unlimited uses is so the Mystic represents the dead, instead of simply rushing a few sentences to a person that may not even be town. The one thing that I am concerned about, however, is that the Mystic is more powerful when dead than alive, so I am concerned about suicides on reviving a useless role in low-elo games. If you have any ideas on how to nerf the dead Mystic, or buff the living mystic, please tell me. Thank you for your time.

[Mystoc]

ret is not underpowered.... do you seriously think that? ret is the strongest role in the game don't base low elo games where people leave when they die on the balance of ret that's not how the role works at all, ret confirms itself and another dead townie with just one ability how do see that as being underpowered?

meduim is weak i agree but just buff the role dont remove it and its abilities to ret

if you do this you up the chances ret can appear by a lot since its a 1/4 chance now

with this change you also remove evils from being able to claim meduim even though it isn't a good claim now meduim can still be faked by evils if theres no other mediums / rezed person

[Mermylermy]

I think this idea has a lot of potential, and it would solve problems with the medium who seems to be one of the most hated roles in the game, judging by how often people leave n1 when they get it and i agree: at the moment it feels pretty useless being dead lol. It actually reminds me a bit of the role i’m Working on atm (but that is a mafia role and cant talk to the dead)

It defo needs some polish tho and has some of the same problems my one had.

For one, having unlimited possessions is just too powerful. I’d limit it to 2 or 3. And maybe only the ability to possess a target once per game?
People abusing the possession to spam and incriminate another player is defo an issue, but if everyone knows theres a mystic in the game (and a dead one for that matter so it’s confirmed) then it shouldn’t be a problem. The only problem i can see is people claiming to be possessed as an excuse for spamming but again i can see people being able to see through that.
As for possessing non town, perhaps the possession wouldn’t work? Although that open up the ability to out someone. I would think about making certain role immune to possession, so if you come across one it could be a town?
I defo wouldn’t give the ability to vote lol
Also as for it unbalancing the probability for TS, I shouldn’t think it’d be that hard to just alter the percentage of probability in the wheel?

All in all, lots of potential and i think it could work! And like you say, opens up the opportunity for developing a new TS role

[Cirque]

Retributionist is one of the most powerful roles in the game, it doesn't need a buff. Yes I understand Medium is hated (for some reason I don't understand) but it's actually a great role when played correctly.
This isn't really needed, sorry.

[Blayzeatron]

Mystoc and Cirque, although you are correct in that ret is one of the most busted roles (also considering bodyguard) in the game rn you realise that combining these roles removes the reason why ret is OP.

Reviving someone confirms the ret, the revived person and all mediums in the game. With the new mystic, the mystic dies during the revival, oh great you're confirmed but dead. As for the confirmed mediums, there are no longer mediums in the game to confirm. Only the revived person is confirmed. I already said this in my above comment if you bothered to read it.

The other great thing about this is that there is no longer the potential for multiple mediums. The only role that is completely pointless having two of and they just confirm each other.

Opening up room for a new TS spot to be brought into the game is a positive IMO. Yes its bad while there isn't the new one to be introduced, but this rework could just be not introduced until a point in time where there is.

As for the possession, I assumed it was still once per game and I believe that it should only be once per game. If that seemed UP when tested it could easily be changed to 2.

[Mystoc]

Mystoc and Cirque, although you are correct in that ret is one of the most busted roles (also considering bodyguard) in the game rn you realise that combining these roles removes the reason why ret is OP.

Reviving someone confirms the ret, the revived person and all mediums in the game. With the new mystic, the mystic dies during the revival, oh great you're confirmed but dead. As for the confirmed mediums, there are no longer mediums in the game to confirm. Only the revived person is confirmed. I already said this in my above comment if you bothered to read it.

The other great thing about this is that there is no longer the potential for multiple mediums. The only role that is completely pointless having two of and they just confirm each other.

Opening up room for a new TS spot to be brought into the game is a positive IMO. Yes its bad while there isn't the new one to be introduced, but this rework could just be not introduced until a point in time where there is.

As for the possession, I assumed it was still once per game and I believe that it should only be once per game. If that seemed UP when tested it could easily be changed to 2.

possession is too untown like it's an thing evil roles do not town roles just keep how meduim is now and how it talks from the dead with sceance's

and this possesion will also mess with reporting system imagine an evil person suddenly ratting out his teammates saying i think john and sam are mafia , the meduim is under no obligation to say he took over the possessed dudes body people might still think its that actual person who is talking

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since ret + meduim = mystic and that is a unique role that means both these roles are unique now

that means people who would've role rolled meduim as random town cant now, this also means random town . town support is buffed because it can role other useful roles that aren't meduim, by removing meduim you up the chances of this mystic role appearing by quite a lot and then since meduim or ret cant roll now the rest of town roles the role will be good roles that aren't meduim

the problem with ret is high elo games a rezed person can just tell town what the dead said while they they were dead making meduim useless,

also multiple mediums isn't a problem now because you only need 1 meduim to relay what the dead are saying so any extra meduim is just useless, sure mediums can know who each other are but at the price of them estianty being a citizen with no abilities

====================================================================

meduim needs to be buffed by it being a unique role also so multiple mediums cant roll, it also needs it core ability buffed it doesn't need to removed and added onto ret

[Blayzeatron]

You keep on saying that the chance of this role being in the game will be really high but as mentioned several times, a new TS role would be able to be brought into the game. Therefore as ret is already unique, the chances have literally not changed at all. As long as the new TS role is a good scum claim and can there can be multiple of them the chances for roles will be unchanged.

[Cirque]

The thing is, players are willing to gamethrow if this role ever gets put out since it dies on revival. Low ELO players are going to think that staying alive is better than not reviving, thus making players not want to revive.
It's still a no.

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

Mystoc,

Ret, while I agree holds a lot of power, has very little strategy. You simply revive the most powerful person at the right time and you are dome with the game. This is what I am trying to avoid. I Apologize, but I didn't fully comprehend the rest of your post. I already explained the evil thing Mystoc, and I also explained the reporting (did you even read my message?) and the confusion of who is speaking is half the poin, and it also makes it so the Mystic still can't be trusted by the living. Yes, that is correct with the unique thing. And yes, people won't be able to roll Medium anymore BECAUSE IT WON'T EXIST!!! An half the problem is multiple mediums, which is useless. With the ret making med obsolete, that is exactly why I want to combine them, and the revived person only can see the info they saw while they were dead, not anything new. The mystic is supposed to not only bring evidence, but show the opinions/suspicions of the dead, something a few sentences in a seance can't convey.

Mermylermy,

As I start to think about it, representation of the dead doesn't really require unlimited possessions. I was thinking maybe limiting it to one possession per person, 3 possessions, or possessions on days after/before full moons(writing that last one down). If you have any other ideas, please reply them. I like the idea of Possession-immune roles. Could you give some suggestions? Thanks for the encouragement!

Cirque,

As I have said, one of the reasons for making the Mystic is not to 'buff the ret', but to make it more interesting, more strategy-based, and to give the dead reason to stay in the game. Also, as Blayzeatron said, this role decreases confirmability. People could gamethrow before, and they will game throw with whatever we give them. They will still be reported and will still be dealt with. The low ELO problem can be simply fixed with the tutorial messages telling the player to revive as soon as possible, or that the best way to help their team is to revive, etc. Not to mention, Mystic is still powerful/useful while alive, as it has the abilities of the medium.

Blayzeatron,

Couldn't have said it better myself

[Cirque]

Nobody is going to listen to the tutorial, it encourages people to not revive and that's seriously a terrible thing and shouldn't be added.
In my opinion Retributionist should just be removed entirely but this isn't the solution to the Retributionist issue.

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

Cirque,

I have to agree with the Ret removal, but even if people don't realize the full strategic ability of the Mystic, they can still play it as a Medium and nobody will care or be affected, just like a low-ELO Mayor might reveal D1 with no strategy or not reveal at all. I might possibly maybe replace the possession-if it really doesn't work out- with Mystoc's Unfinished Business ability. (see 'Medium (Reworked!)') if it absolutely can't be redeemed, which I think it will be more than redeemed, as the possession still places the strategy mostly on the Mystic, while Unfinished Business puts a lot more power on the dead.

[Cirque]

I know you're trying to convince me, but it's still a no.
A Medium that can revive, then die? This still encourages players not to revive. Players will not revive since some people believe that staying alive is better than trying to win. This only works in FM because people are smarter.

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

Cirque,

Ok, I respect that. I think at this point we can agree to disagree.

[Mystoc]

You keep on saying that the chance of this role being in the game will be really high but as mentioned several times, a new TS role would be able to be brought into the game. Therefore as ret is already unique, the chances have literally not changed at all. As long as the new TS role is a good scum claim and can there can be multiple of them the chances for roles will be unchanged.

it goes from 1/5 to 1/4

here i will list the roles

current: escort transporter mayor meduim ret - thats 5
new: escort transporter mayor mystic - thats 4

less town support roles mean better chance of mystic rolling

roles the chances are changed a lot 20% too 25% chance of occurance

since it can roll and in towns support and all 3 random town spots the chances of seeing mystic would be increased by alot

==========================================


what new TS role are you talking about?

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

I apologize for being so rude ahead of time, but we(being most of the people who have posted on this topic) have literally said since the very beginning that combining the Medium and Retributionist offered a great opportunity for a new Town(Support) role to exist.

[Mystoc]

Mystoc,

Ret, while I agree holds a lot of power, has very little strategy. You simply revive the most powerful person at the right time and you are dome with the game. This is what I am trying to avoid. I Apologize, but I didn't fully comprehend the rest of your post. I already explained the evil thing Mystoc, and I also explained the reporting (did you even read my message?) and the confusion of who is speaking is half the poin, and it also makes it so the Mystic still can't be trusted by the living. Yes, that is correct with the unique thing. And yes, people won't be able to roll Medium anymore BECAUSE IT WON'T EXIST!!! An half the problem is multiple mediums, which is useless. With the ret making med obsolete, that is exactly why I want to combine them, and the revived person only can see the info they saw while they were dead, not anything new. The mystic is supposed to not only bring evidence, but show the opinions/suspicions of the dead, something a few sentences in a seance can't convey.

so nerf ret don't tack mediums abilities onto that's a buff not a nerf

you don't justify it as a buff to meduim when the buff to meduim is also a buff to ret which needs to be nerfed not buffed


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i must missed the possessing people part because i didn't see it it defiantly messes with the reporting system

it kinda weird for to suggest a way to fix the possession part when i don't like the core idea of combining the two roles but i will

make it like 1-2 time use

just let the mystic speak from the dead as himself he doesn't have to possess anyone he can return as ghost for a day to speak in day chat, that way reporting system isn't messed with

as you know my reworked meduim idea is let all of dead speak for a 1 day but that's my idea so i don't want you adding to this role

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meduim does still exist its abilities are just part of mystic now don't use name change schematics to say meduim does not exist anymore with this change

i agree meduim needs to be made unique to avoid this problem just don't combine it with ret that's all

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

Mystoc,

If the trial system jurors were to be able to see when a person is being possessed, the system would not be messed with. I originally wanted to do the ghost idea, and I would have done 1 to two times, but this way the Mystic still can't be 100% trusted. As the town may not trust that the possessed person is really possessed, the Mystic may not get their points across with just one or two Possessions. Also, this is less of a nerf/buff to either of the roles, and is simply vastly different, hence the title 'Overhaul'. Please stop bringing that up.

[Mystoc]

Mystoc,

If the trial system jurors were to be able to see when a person is being possessed, the system would not be messed with. I originally wanted to do the ghost idea, and I would have done 1 to two times, but this way the Mystic still can't be 100% trusted. As the town may not trust that the possessed person is really possessed, the Mystic may not get their points across with just one or two Possessions. Also, this is less of a nerf/buff to either of the roles, and is simply vastly different, hence the title 'Overhaul'. Please stop bringing that up.

why would you want a town role who isn't trusted current meduim can already be 100% trusted through sceance that's a nerf not a buff and

also the this new meduim does have a way to confirm they possessed a person

its very ez to get trusted, just whisper a few people you trust and say i'm meduim if i die and possess someone the codeword is laptop if someone says laptop once i die this it means i possessed them and the info im giving is legit (the mystic would also possess someone they never gave the codeword/ whisper too)



yes blackmailer could try to fake being you with the codeword but guess what you do if he does! possess him and tell town he's blackmailer cause he knew the password when you never whispered him / possessed him untill now

======================================================

no the possessed players wouldn't get banned true, but a lot more false reports would get sent there which is very bad, keep in mind the trial system process is a manual process at the moment, where unpaid volunteers go through the reports and see if they were warranted or not, this role would add tons of false reports for these people to look through which is very bad

because


1) people doing needless extra work for free isnt cool

and

2) the real people who do need to get banned now get to troll/greif games longer because these people are stuck still looking through these false reports this mystic role caused until they get finally get to that person who actually needs to get banned

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

1.You were saying this role was too OP, now you are complaining about a nerf?
2.People can confirm the ret the same way, and you have to find someone you trust first.
3.That could be a jester trying to delay/throw off the town
4.The chat could be revealed after the game ends as to when people were possesed

[Mystoc]

1.You were saying this role was too OP, now you are complaining about a nerf?
2.People can confirm the ret the same way, and you have to find someone you trust first.
3.That could be a jester trying to delay/throw off the town
4.The chat could be revealed after the game ends as to when people were possesed

1) nope i said it doesn't make sense you would want to nerf it being trusted when currently from the dead it is trusted by sceance

i then pointed there is actually is a way to get trusted since your statement was you wanted town to distrust the role and that's why you didn't like the ghost idea

2) ret can just confrim itself by whispering the person the revived the second the day starts, doesn't need codewords, also thats not hard to do theres usually theres 1-2 you can get a feel for who are town in any given game (transporter jailor escort ret ect..)


3) how would jester know the correct code word? i'm confused that point made sense please explain what you mean by this

4) people already reported the possessed by then it's too late, people dont wait till the game to end to report they do it as soon as the feel that the person is gamethrowing, you would need to make reports unuseable until the game ends for this idea to be viable , which might work

but then it would be annoying in cases a real person is actually gamethrowing cause sometimes you just want to report the gamethrower that made your side loose and go onto you next game and not have to wait till the game ends

[xXIllegalPotatoXx]

I've seen jesters work with the mafia before(I have before, too), and maybe you could report during the game, but then a message would come up at the end of the game if the reported player was possessed, asking them to review the cahat and confirm if they really want to report the person.