Framer - Mafia Deception

Old Role Ideas

Should these buffs be applied to the Framer?

Yes.
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No.
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Total votes : 28

Framer - Mafia Deception

Postby DragonClaw66 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:36 pm

Name: Framer
Alignment: Mafia Deception
Immunities: Attack - None, Defense - None
Specials: Mafia Chat, Promoted to Mafioso when all Mafia Killings die
Type: Information, Unique
Priority: 3

Sheriff Interrogation Results: Your target is a member of the Mafia!
Investigator Investigation Results: Your target could be a Framer, Vampire, Jester, or Hex Master.
Consigliere/Witch Investigation Results: Your target has a desire to deceive. They must be a Framer.

Summary: A skilled counterfeiter who frames information.
Abilities: Choose a player at night to framer. Choose another player to focus. You will not visit the focused player. You can choose yourself as the focused player.
Attributes:
- If you are lynched (or killed at night?), you will appear to be the role of the last player you framed.
- If a framed player...
...is tracked by a Tracker, it will appear as if they visited the focused player.
...is investigated by an Investigator, they will appear to a Framer, Vampire, Jester, or Hex Master.
...is interrogated by a Sheriff, they will appear to be a member of the Mafia.
...visits a player that is trapped, the Trapper will receive a notification of a Framer visiting the player.
- If a focused player is...
...is watched by a Lookout, it will appear as if they were visited by the framed player.
- A framed player will appear in a Psychic’s evil (odd-numbered night) vision. There must still be a player that would normally appear as evil. A framed player will never appear in the Psychic’s good (even-numbered night) vision.
- Your visit cannot be seen by a Spy (that would completely counter this role).

Notes:
- If the Psychic is removed or reworked, the Framer may become non-unique.
- Remove or rework the Spy. It counters every frickin’ Coven and Mafia member in some way and it counters Neutral Killings because of their immunity (the Spy’s ability to see visits is what counters these). The Spy would counter this role so much that I had to make the Framer's visits unseeable. That still may not cover it as the Spy could just say (in Ranked), “there’s a missing visit so there must be a Framer.”
- The Disguiser is removed.

Achievements:
- Deceived: Win 1 game as a Framer.
- Framer: Win 5 games as a Framer.
- Hoodwinked: Win 10 games as a Framer.
- Identity Adjuster: Win 25 games as a Framer.
Master of Deception - Fool two Town Investigatives in one night.
Illusion - Make a Lookout think that your framed target visited the Mafia kill target.
Mischievous - Have a framed player get lynched on the day after a Sheriff interrogates them.

The bolded points are still up for discussion.
Last edited by DragonClaw66 on Tue May 22, 2018 4:46 pm, edited 33 times in total.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby Seththeking » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:43 pm

Calibrator is a better name IMO (Can you change it to that name please, It's the better wording for Framer)
But any role similar to framer is a framer replacement lol
#Currentframerisgarbage

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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby RHCube » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:10 pm

I like the concept, but it could still use a few changes. The main issue with framer is that it relies on a sheriff and/or investigator being alive in order to be useful. This still has that. Here are a few changes that could fix that:
1. It should be able to choose the role their target appears as. This would allow it to fool investigators
2. If a framed player dies, then they will appear as their framed role in the graveyard. If this would be overpowered, then make it only have 3 uses
3. Remove the lookout interaction, and change the tracker one so the manipulator has 2 targets, and the framed player will appear to visit their second target.
4. If a jailor or vigilante kills a player framed as a town role, then it will be as if they actually killed a town role(jailor will lose executions, vig will commit suicide). Make the amount of uses 3
5. Remove the spy interaction, and just add that feedback message to hypnotist instead.
Last edited by RHCube on Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby DragonClaw66 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:56 pm

RHCube wrote:I like the concept, but it could still use a few changes. The main issue with framer is that it relies on a sheriff and/or investigator being alive in order to be useful. This still has that. Here are a few changes that could fix that:
1. It should be able to choose the role their target appears as. This would allow it to fool investigators.
The Manipulator already frames players with the investigation result of the Manipulator. Giving the Manipulator the ability to make a player look like themself is the most important part of the role because it can kind of disguise their own death.
2. If a framed player dies, then they will appear as their framed role in the graveyard. If this would be overpowered, then make it only have 3 uses
Manipulating someone successfully still requires good investigation-reading, so I don't think it's too overpowered.
3. Remove the lookout interaction, and change the tracker one so the manipulator has 2 targets, and the framed player will appear to visit their second target.
Why remove the Lookout interaction? I'll think about the Tracker interaction, but I don't think it's very necessary.
4. If a jailor or vigilante kills a player framed as a town role, then it will be as if they actually killed a town role(jailor will lose executions, vig will commit suicide)
It's impossible for this to happen to a Jailor due to targets of a jailed player failing. The Vigilante doesn't need another nerf.
5. Remove the spy interaction, and just add that feedback message to hypnotist instead.
Why remove the Spy interaction? The hypnotist already has this feedback.

My responses are in red.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby lemonader666 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:24 pm

You already made a framer rework
Why
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby RHCube » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:33 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:I like the concept, but it could still use a few changes. The main issue with framer is that it relies on a sheriff and/or investigator being alive in order to be useful. This still has that. Here are a few changes that could fix that:
1. It should be able to choose the role their target appears as. This would allow it to fool investigators. Also, I mainly added this to make my second suggestion useful.
The Manipulator already frames players with the investigation result of the Manipulator. Giving the Manipulator the ability to make a player look like themself is the most important part of the role because it can kind of disguise their own death.

But skilled players wouldn't trust manipulator results.

DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:2. If a framed player dies, then they will appear as their framed role in the graveyard. If this would be overpowered, then make it only have 3 uses
Manipulating someone successfully still requires good investigation-reading, so I don't think it's too overpowered.

Does that mean you support this change?
DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:3. Remove the lookout interaction, and change the tracker one so the manipulator has 2 targets, and the framed player will appear to visit their second target.
Why remove the Lookout interaction? I'll think about the Tracker interaction, but I don't think it's very necessary.


Because lookout doesn't really need nerfs, and the tracker interaction would also fool lookouts.
DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:4. If a jailor or vigilante kills a player framed as a town role, then it will be as if they actually killed a town role(jailor will lose executions, vig will commit suicide)
It's impossible for this to happen to a Jailor due to targets of a jailed player failing. The Vigilante doesn't need another nerf.

My responses are in red.

The visits could be made astral, or frames could be made permanent(this would have to be with some limits though, like only one player being framed at a time). Vig doesn't need a nerf, but it would hardcounter framer if my second suggestion was added.
DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:5. Remove the spy interaction, and just add that feedback message to hypnotist instead.
Why remove the Spy interaction? The hypnotist already has this feedback.

My responses are in red.

Because hypno should be the only mafia deception role that fakes night messages.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby DragonClaw66 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:12 pm

RHCube wrote:
DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:I like the concept, but it could still use a few changes. The main issue with framer is that it relies on a sheriff and/or investigator being alive in order to be useful. This still has that. Here are a few changes that could fix that:
1. It should be able to choose the role their target appears as. This would allow it to fool investigators. Also, I mainly added this to make my second suggestion useful.
The Manipulator already frames players with the investigation result of the Manipulator. Giving the Manipulator the ability to make a player look like themself is the most important part of the role because it can kind of disguise their own death.

But skilled players wouldn't trust manipulator results.

DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:2. If a framed player dies, then they will appear as their framed role in the graveyard. If this would be overpowered, then make it only have 3 uses
Manipulating someone successfully still requires good investigation-reading, so I don't think it's too overpowered.

Does that mean you support this change?
DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:3. Remove the lookout interaction, and change the tracker one so the manipulator has 2 targets, and the framed player will appear to visit their second target.
Why remove the Lookout interaction? I'll think about the Tracker interaction, but I don't think it's very necessary.


Because lookout doesn't really need nerfs, and the tracker interaction would also fool lookouts.
DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:4. If a jailor or vigilante kills a player framed as a town role, then it will be as if they actually killed a town role(jailor will lose executions, vig will commit suicide)
It's impossible for this to happen to a Jailor due to targets of a jailed player failing. The Vigilante doesn't need another nerf.

My responses are in red.

The visits could be made astral, or frames could be made permanent(this would have to be with some limits though, like only one player being framed at a time). Vig doesn't need a nerf, but it would hardcounter framer if my second suggestion was added.
DragonClaw66 wrote:
RHCube wrote:5. Remove the spy interaction, and just add that feedback message to hypnotist instead.
Why remove the Spy interaction? The hypnotist already has this feedback.

My responses are in red.

Because hypno should be the only mafia deception role that fakes night messages.

(1) Go to my #3 response.
(2) I should have worded this better. What I meant was I don't think it would be that overpowered for the following reasons:
- Framed targets aren't always going to be investigated/watched/tracked/etc. This means they aren't always going to be lynched.
- The will isn't erased. This means that even if they die as a Manipulator, the will might be convincing enough to make the Town realize they were actually who they claimed to be. I don't think it's overpowered with unlimited usage, but I'll see what others think.
(3) I actually really like your idea (I didn't comprehend it at first). If you frame Player #1 and target Player #2, a Tracker will see Player #1 visit Player #2 and a Lookout will see Player #2 be visited by Player #1. I'll definitely add this (you'll get credit). I feel like adding this will push the role to a more complicated one, so adding the ability to chance Investigator results might be a bit over the top. Just had an idea. A player's investigation results will appear as those of the "focused" player (that's the name of the second target... I just came up with it... don't judge).
(4) I have already decided that manipulating players into appearing to be Town members isn't necessary. Also, I have been told that an Astral visit was too powerful (and should remain in the Coven only).
(5) I concur. I need another Spy counter. For now, the only thing I have is that the Manipulator is immune to the Spy's visit detection.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby RHCube » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:51 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:Just had an idea. A player's investigation results will appear as those of the "focused" player (that's the name of the second target... I just came up with it... don't judge).

That could work, though I'd still prefer it if they could choose the role that they appear as.
DragonClaw66 wrote:(that's the name of the second target... I just came up with it... don't judge).

Lol, you're not the only one who's bad at names.
DragonClaw66 wrote:(4) I have already decided that manipulating players into appearing to be Town members isn't necessary.

Why?
Last edited by RHCube on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby DragonClaw66 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:56 pm

RHCube wrote:
DragonClaw66 wrote:
DragonClaw66 wrote:(4) I have already decided that manipulating players into appearing to be Town members isn't necessary.

Why?

The wills would immediately counter the claim that the dead Townie was making. If a player was claiming to be an Investigator and then appears to be an Escort when they were hanged/killed by a non-Mafia, it's kinda obvious that they were actually an Investigator that was manipulated. If a player would appear to be a Manipulator (my version), the Town has two options:
(1) Believe the player's actual claim (before they died) and ignore the fact that they appear to be a Manipulator.
(2) Think that this is the real Manipulator with a fake will.

Another reason it shouldn't be added is because of the fact that this role now has two sets of buttons and after this change it would open another UI which will include all roles... and that's overly complicated. Too many people would be confused.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby Purple998 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:19 pm

why isn't this a thing? this is like the best framer replacement ever! I love DragonClaw's ideas!

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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby ElectricTacoFTW » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:06 pm

interrogated by a Sheriff, they will appear to be a member of the Mafia.
For the sheriff shouldn't the result be the focused player?
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby Mystoc » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:58 pm

- If a manipulated player is killed by a non-Mafia on the same night or hanged on the following day, they will appear to be a Manipulator. The player’s will remains unchanged.


does more bad than good remove this if they have the full will that makes complete sense and does not match the role

you basically confirm theres a manipulator in the game which basically makes you fooling town a lot harder

even if town knows you were already in the game if the will is well written enough very few town will believe you are actually dead

basicly this ability reveals you are in the game whereas before town might have not known this

also it can make it look as if you really died if town does all ready know you're in the game but it all hinges on how convincing the will is to town which is a gamble prolly 50/50

i would remove the last part

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yea this role is very strong and you want it to have no counters? spy is ment to counter roles like hexmaster and and disguiser and forger before it was unfair since forgers was basically push over weak and didn't deserve to be hard countered

and now thats is strong prolly as mafia support role second to only janitor you want to remove its only counter?

if you propose that spy cant see its visit you may as well just say if the role is added spy will be removed casue really what does spy have besides seeing mafia visits and now you want to add expectations to that

in my opinion this rework puts framer on as the second best mafia support after janitor it should have a town counter i mean what else would counter you vet? that counters everyone town LO can see you visit yea but they dont know what your doing you can easily claim LO since you can fake a visit on that person i see no counter to this role besides spy you shouldn't removes counter to very strong roles

if you do change spy cant see this roles visits. you should just say spy will be removed instead because you shouldn't add exceptions to an already weak role whose only ability is seeing visits which a mafia member can easily fake since they also know who they visited
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby DragonClaw66 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:19 pm

ElectricTacoFTW wrote:interrogated by a Sheriff, they will appear to be a member of the Mafia.
For the sheriff shouldn't the result be the focused player?

The majority of roles in a typical Ranked game will appear to be not suspicious. Making a player take on the results of a random player would be pointless due to the "not suspicious" appear most of the time. You may say that you could just focus a member of the Mafia, but that hinders the ability to deceive Trackers and Lookouts (when it comes to focusing the Mafia kill target).

Mystoc wrote:
- If a manipulated player is killed by a non-Mafia on the same night or hanged on the following day, they will appear to be a Manipulator. The player’s will remains unchanged.


does more bad than good remove this if they have the full will that makes complete sense and does not match the role

you basically confirm theres a manipulator in the game which basically makes you fooling town a lot harder

even if town knows you were already in the game if the will is well written enough very few town will believe you are actually dead

basicly this ability reveals you are in the game whereas before town might have not known this

also it can make it look as if you really died if town does all ready know you're in the game but it all hinges on how convincing the will is to town which is a gamble prolly 50/50

i would remove the last part

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yea this role is very strong and you want it to have no counters? spy is ment to counter roles like hexmaster and and disguiser and forger before it was unfair since forgers was basically push over weak and didn't deserve to be hard countered

and now thats is strong prolly as mafia support role second to only janitor you want to remove its only counter?

if you propose that spy cant see its visit you may as well just say if the role is added spy will be removed casue really what does spy have besides seeing mafia visits and now you want to add expectations to that

in my opinion this rework puts framer on as the second best mafia support after janitor it should have a town counter i mean what else would counter you vet? that counters everyone town LO can see you visit yea but they dont know what your doing you can easily claim LO since you can fake a visit on that person i see no counter to this role besides spy you shouldn't removes counter to very strong roles

if you do change spy cant see this roles visits. you should just say spy will be removed instead because you shouldn't add exceptions to an already weak role whose only ability is seeing visits which a mafia member can easily fake since they also know who they visited

You make a good point. I will remove the last part, however, it needs a new ability if this is removed. After this removal, a game with no Town Investigatives (remaining or from the beginning) would make the Manipulator useless. Maybe it could morph into the Disguiser when all Town Investigatives die (the Disguiser also needs a change).

I don't think the Spy deception part should be removed. The Manipulator still requires a lot of skill to successfully deceive. You have to target the correct player that the Sheriff, Investigator, Lookout and Tracker visit, which makes it fair. In the Psychic's case, it isn't even truly deception. Your target's name appears in the vision but there still has to be a player that is actually evil. I'm open to suggestions, so if you have one for a different Spy deception, share it.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby Mystoc » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:08 pm

You make a good point. I will remove the last part, however, it needs a new ability if this is removed. After this removal, a game with no Town Investigatives (remaining or from the beginning) would make the Manipulator useless. Maybe it could morph into the Disguiser when all Town Investigatives die (the Disguiser also needs a change).

I don't think the Spy deception part should be removed. The Manipulator still requires a lot of skill to successfully deceive. You have to target the correct player that the Sheriff, Investigator, Lookout and Tracker visit, which makes it fair. In the Psychic's case, it isn't even truly deception. Your target's name appears in the vision but there still has to be a player that is actually evil. I'm open to suggestions, so if you have one for a different Spy deception, share it.


i'm all for for removing spy it limits to many coven and mafia roles in terms of design its the weakest TI so no one would miss it

------------------------------------------------------------------------

you will eventually get promoted to mafioso i mean janitor can run out of charges and it doesn't get to become a different role

consort can run of roles to rb that visit people (meduim, (sorta jailor you cant stop the jailing only exucute) escort transporter and vet all cant be roleblocked but consort does not become disguiser when only they are alive

having roles turn into other roles is a bad idea because its make the role they turn into infinitely worse why would i want to be disguiser when i can be this awesome framer role and then become disguiser anyway it's a bad idea

(God what BMG did to guardian angel just makes me sad i think its for the best NB is no longer in ranked)

also this would let mafia know there no LO or tracker left to see them visit if you change roles now they know theres nothing to fear it's a bad idea

it also lets mafia know they won't get CCed if the claim TI and theres still random town open since all TI are dead this role change is waaaay more powerful than you think knowing all of TI is dead is a very powerful tool

i don't really see the need to give it another ability (most definitely you cant give it ability when all TI are dead all ready said above why that bad) if you gave it an ability it would have to be you'd have the whole game

only one i can think is let it visit mafia but it does nothing (to fool spy) very weak ability wise but it fools spy (in a way it frames spy because they say mafia visited them so they cant be mafia but then if that person is hanged and is revealed to be mafia it makes the spy look like a mafia backing a buddy since spy can easily be faked by mafia they will be under high suspicion as being mafia
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:30 am

/support
On Topic:
I like these changes very much. That's a "yes" from me. The Framer does need to be buffed or reworked heavily.

Kind of Off Topic:
I hate Psychic as a role so much in the game, probably my most hated role.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby Shilster » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:57 am

Basic

Why do you love necroing?
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:25 am

Shilster wrote:Basic

Why do you love necroing?


I don't really classify that as necroing.
I consider this bumping a good idea, with a response.
I actually thought that there was a more recent post, because I saw that this thread was posted a couple of months ago.

Why can't you bump a good thread yourself, if it's not your thread?
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby Shilster » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:33 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
Shilster wrote:Basic

Why do you love necroing?


I don't really classify that as necroing.
I consider this bumping a good idea, with a response.
I actually thought that there was a more recent post, because I saw that this thread was posted a couple of months ago.

Why can't you bump a good thread yourself, if it's not your thread?


Because fucking rules.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:57 am

Shilster wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
Shilster wrote:Basic

Why do you love necroing?


I don't really classify that as necroing.
I consider this bumping a good idea, with a response.
I actually thought that there was a more recent post, because I saw that this thread was posted a couple of months ago.

Why can't you bump a good thread yourself, if it's not your thread?


Because fucking rules.

so even slight necro, no allowed why though.
WHY DO U ALWAYS COMMENT ON EVERY MY POST WITH NECRO
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby Shilster » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:58 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
Shilster wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
Shilster wrote:Basic

Why do you love necroing?


I don't really classify that as necroing.
I consider this bumping a good idea, with a response.
I actually thought that there was a more recent post, because I saw that this thread was posted a couple of months ago.

Why can't you bump a good thread yourself, if it's not your thread?


Because fucking rules.

so even slight necro, no allowed why though.
WHY DO U ALWAYS COMMENT ON EVERY MY POST WITH NECRO


viewtopic.php?f=38&t=17204
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:59 am

Well I do have a good reason, because this idea is a very great idea, but it was ignored / unnoticed.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby DragonClaw66 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:45 pm

It actually has been less than a month since this was last posted on, so it isn't technically necrobumping (though nobody cared about this thread anymore).
Spoiler: The Trapper is now fooled by the Manipulator.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby Gooose26 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:01 pm

I think this is a great buff (not replacement), I'm not sure exactly where it stands balance-wise but all of the interactions seem to be done well, and I do think that this is balanced.

I would also suggest that instead of making this role counter Spy, just make Spy not be able to see visits as part of this role, because Spy shouldn't be able to see visits
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby ProfessorArceus » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:37 am

BasicFourLife wrote:Well I do have a good reason, because this idea is a very great idea, but it was ignored / unnoticed.

The OP can bump their own fucking thread
They don't need people coming in and just saying "AAHH I SUPPORT THIS ROLE" because it doesn't help. He fact that he's MAKING A REWORK/BUFF means that he knows that the role NEEDS A REWORK/BUFF. That's what you did. Point out the very obvious after showing your support without reason. Oh wait you did more*

*bullshit - it's offtopic nonsense which is trying to derail the thread while both necroing it and giving no feedback. Rant about shitty roles elsewhere, don't necrobump shit that isn't yours and don't post pointless messages. It isn't hard. And don't victimise yourself here, because you necrobumped and broke the rules, you gave an extremely low quality post which broke the rules, and you promoted off topic discussion by trying to derail the thread. It's not easy to do all of those things in one post, so congratulations on breaking the rules thrice and still attempting to justify it. I won't report the post. Goose can deal with it however he needs to.
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Re: Manipulator (Framer "Replacement")

Postby BasicFourLife » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:54 am

Wow you really fucking hate me Professor.
You seem to become my first nemesis.
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