Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
28
37%
Yes, but as a new role!
21
28%
No!
27
36%
 
Total votes : 76

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Shilster » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:57 am

Parallax7 wrote:@Shilster

So if we apply your logic to this game, Jester shouldn't be changed, because it has a 70% chance to haunt town, and we should ignore the other 30%?

How do odds balance a role? They swing the role, if anything, and aren't reliable. Let's apply your argument to Vigilante, where its bullet would kill 70% of the time, and the other 30% of the time, it'd fail entirely.

See?


Jssters can go completely random when Vigs can only target some roles. It's actually quite different.
User avatar
Shilster
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:59 pm
Location: (GMT+7)

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby DumbStorm » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:59 am

Shilster wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:@Shilster

So if we apply your logic to this game, Jester shouldn't be changed, because it has a 70% chance to haunt town, and we should ignore the other 30%?

How do odds balance a role? They swing the role, if anything, and aren't reliable. Let's apply your argument to Vigilante, where its bullet would kill 70% of the time, and the other 30% of the time, it'd fail entirely.

See?


Jssters can go completely random when Vigs can only target some roles. It's actually quite different.


Shil it is pretty fucking obvious what he meant
Level 100 Cancermancer, Toad the Chode.

-Fallimoltus-

Being uncomfortable is the only emotion I feel in this RP.

'Happily' married to HereThereEverywhere
User avatar
DumbStorm
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:34 pm
Location: The Mushroom Kingdom, falling out of a window

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby kookeekwisp » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:13 am

This entire game has a sort of "Roulette" vibe to it.
It's not RNG that kills you, it's player response. Whether it be Random-lynch or being N1'd by an Arsonist (lol), It was all done by human response. It's the same reason every role in the game can win just by AFKing; Even Amnesiac if they're bitten!

You can think of Pirate as just RNG garbage, but you can also look at it as an opportunity to be a Mentalist. Read people, judge their preferences & know what they'll choose in a duel. Are they lazy & prefer the Graveyard over Player numbers? Try scimitar on the left. Are they active & named after a ninja? They'll most likely sidestep if not backpedal, but never Chainmail.

Jester is different though, because they're a TRUE roulette. Nothing to the jester matters after they're lynched, unless it's on a whim, so their attack little to no bias whatsoever.

Not sure what it says about the NB shift, but i really need to sleep or my head will melt.
Favorite roles: Framer Survivor Trapper VampireHunter Consigliere Mafioso Escort Lookout Mayor Arsonist Disguiser Veteran Bodyguard Plaguebearer Medusa Blackmailer Executioner Doctor Crusader Vigilante Vampire PotionMaster Poisoner Transporter Jester Jailor Consort Ambusher Werewolf SerialKiller Hypnotist CovenLeader Pirate Godfather Sheriff Forger ??? Retributionist Amnesiac Investigator Necromancer Spy GuardianAngel Tracker Psychic HexMaster.

Kirize wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
I didnt know you could contradict yourself in one sentence
User avatar
kookeekwisp
Mafioso
Mafioso
 
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:55 pm

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:35 am

Parallax7 wrote:@Village

Simple disruption happens. It's a double edged sword, and this mechanic with Witch is more or less skilled based. If you added Tactical Kills, it'd be minimized. Assuming you follow my YouTube, I'm sure you could see my video on the aforementioned.

Regardless, Jester's interaction with scum, creates a dilemma. What happens is you have a fundamentally broken mechanic, opposed to Witch's being poor play by the Witch, and you could argue gamethrowing if it's blatant. Jester can pursue a scum haunt blatantly. You don't understand how necessary a "Live to see the Town lose the game." win condition Is. Because they will always support scum much more, as they're more reliable, consistent, and balanced. The broken mechanic previously mentioned would be scum pursuing the Jester lynch to get a Town haunted, and it backfiring, by the way. It's also when Jester is lynched, and scum voted guilty wanting to improve its Town appeal, and it is haunted.

Independent winning is reserved for NB/NC. Jester wins independently. My Jester is Neutral Benign. Put two and two together.


Villagerlover wrote: I still believe that the value of the original Jester's intentions are greater than this new attempt at making a "more balanced" game.
In my opinion, I don't think Townies should always be lynch-happy. The very idea of a Jester is still a very commonly used excuse to deter lynches, stall the time for evils, and overall, ignore certain players that are really trying hard to prove they are worth being heard. The idea of a role that can win by getting itself lynched anytime, and killing a guilty voter is pretty good for anti-town purposes in my opinion.



- I don't think this role should be the new Jester. I think it should just be an entirely new role on it's own.
Wanna say somethin'? >B3
PM
User avatar
Villagerlover
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1293
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:59 pm
Location: Hang on I need to ask Google Maps

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:21 am

Except it's original influence is preserved and amplified. Let me know when it dawns upon you.
FM Record

3-0-5-2


Newest YouTube Video

Spoiler:

Discord: Parallax#4977
User avatar
Parallax7
Christmas 2018 Winner
Christmas 2018 Winner
 
Posts: 559
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:01 pm
Location: .-. .. --. .... - / -... . .... .. -. -.. / -.-- --- ..- (EST)

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:40 am

Parallax7 wrote:Except it's original influence is preserved and amplified. Let me know when it dawns upon you.



So it's "original influence is preserved and amplified"?
Great. My point has been proven. It's sharp enough to stay in the game for the sake of psychological gameplay, and shouldn't be replaced.
Wanna say somethin'? >B3
PM
User avatar
Villagerlover
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1293
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:59 pm
Location: Hang on I need to ask Google Maps

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:39 pm

Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.
FM Record

3-0-5-2


Newest YouTube Video

Spoiler:

Discord: Parallax#4977
User avatar
Parallax7
Christmas 2018 Winner
Christmas 2018 Winner
 
Posts: 559
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:01 pm
Location: .-. .. --. .... - / -... . .... .. -. -.. / -.-- --- ..- (EST)

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:23 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Spectre0 wrote:I don't really see why Jester needs to be changed.

"Swings the alignment"? What?

Jester absolutely supports evils.


Jester supports evildoers ~ in retrospect, it does not.

Scum doesn't deserve to be panalzied for poor play when something that exists to support them is what punishes them. Not to mention, this very paradox's severity is amplified by the fact, two scum for the price of one for Town is absolutely absurd.

Yeah, nothing says evil doer support like that.



The witch could do the exact same thing.
Punish the Mafia (even if they did play pretty well) by unintentionally controlling them to target others and ruin plans, waste abilities, or even worse. Make the Mafia kill each other.

And the Mafia don't even have to do anything wrong. It's just a thing that can happen.

Any "evil doer support" has its drawbacks. The ones the witch could cause are a lot worse than that of which a jester could do

The thing is that if you hurt evils as witch, you are a bad witch. But if you don't have to be unskilled in order to hurt evils as jester, since you don't really care what happens to them.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:38 pm

Suggestions:
Jester could just become a Neutral benign (Yea it can kill being a NB but Amne can already remember a killing role and it's only one kill role) and executioner could change so that It's target can be anyone (like GA)

or Jester when lynch'd could force town not to vote the next day. (A bad thing happens from lynching the jester but not effecting the evils)

I don't think jester needs a massive "change"
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
User avatar
Soulshade55r
Blackmailer
Blackmailer
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:45 pm
Location: Uk

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:41 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:Suggestions:
Jester could just become a Neutral benign (Yea it can kill being a NB but Amne can already remember a killing role) and it's only one kill role so could exe (remove that it has to lynch town.)

or Jester when lynch'd could force town not to vote the next day. (A bad thing happens from lynching the jester but not effecting the evils)

I don't think jester needs a massive "change"

Chaging him to NB would be enough. About the exe, it would be nice if his goal changed to "live to see the town lose the game" if his target is killed, along with losing his immunity. Also, he should win the game if his target died to a jailor or vigilante. The only problem I see is that evils would be encouraged to kill exe's target, and that he could ally with a witch in order to win, so I'm not sure.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:51 pm

exe's goal is kind of non town sided the only bad side is that once his target is lynch'd exe can side with anyone.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
User avatar
Soulshade55r
Blackmailer
Blackmailer
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:45 pm
Location: Uk

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:54 pm

If an Executioner decides to help Town, they gain a night-immune Citizen. They are allowed to do that, which completely ruins the point of lynching a Townie. Neutral Evil as a whole could use a lot of love, and fixing Jester in any way would be great.
canadian joker says a lot aboot society

Riskka#1854
User avatar
HereThereEverywhere
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4736
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: I am here

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:56 pm

Executioner would fit into neutral benign if they removed that it's target HAS to be mafia

Exe isn't that sided but I do agree
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
User avatar
Soulshade55r
Blackmailer
Blackmailer
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:45 pm
Location: Uk

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:00 pm

Exe with a non-Town target would be too easy.
canadian joker says a lot aboot society

Riskka#1854
User avatar
HereThereEverywhere
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4736
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: I am here

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:02 pm

Not really because they could still be town It would be a lot easier (Maybe make it not immune?).
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
User avatar
Soulshade55r
Blackmailer
Blackmailer
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:45 pm
Location: Uk

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby TrueGuardian32 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:04 pm

I don't get why we don't make it where Jester is mafia already. It would scare the town a TON.
I go as True in Ranked
I'm a Trusted User on the Town of Salem Forums!

Created Roles I made and love:
The Vampire Overhaul
QOL Change
Monk! My Version!
Traitor!
Catalyst!
User avatar
TrueGuardian32
Escort
Escort
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:10 pm
Location: Bed

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:06 pm

TrueGuardian32 wrote:I don't get why we don't make it where Jester is mafia already. It would scare the town a TON.

Because it would be worse than having a disguiser. A 1x1 trade never favors mafia. That's why they don't want to hit someone protected by a bodyguard.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby TrueGuardian32 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:09 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
TrueGuardian32 wrote:I don't get why we don't make it where Jester is mafia already. It would scare the town a TON.

Because it would be worse than having a disguiser. A 1x1 trade never favors mafia. That's why they don't want to hit someone protected by a bodyguard.


True, but it would make it where Jester helps mafia. It would also scare the town making them worried about lynching mafia.
I go as True in Ranked
I'm a Trusted User on the Town of Salem Forums!

Created Roles I made and love:
The Vampire Overhaul
QOL Change
Monk! My Version!
Traitor!
Catalyst!
User avatar
TrueGuardian32
Escort
Escort
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:10 pm
Location: Bed

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:12 pm

kookeekwisp wrote:Are they lazy & prefer the Graveyard over Player numbers? Try scimitar on the left.

But isn't prefering numbers lazier than prefering names?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:12 pm

TrueGuardian32 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
TrueGuardian32 wrote:I don't get why we don't make it where Jester is mafia already. It would scare the town a TON.

Because it would be worse than having a disguiser. A 1x1 trade never favors mafia. That's why they don't want to hit someone protected by a bodyguard.


It would also scare the town making them worried about lynching mafia.

Town shouldn't be worried about lynching a mafia.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:23 pm

Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.
Wanna say somethin'? >B3
PM
User avatar
Villagerlover
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1293
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:59 pm
Location: Hang on I need to ask Google Maps

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:00 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.

Town is already punished for careless lynching, losing a townie.
If town lynched scum, they deserve to live. Scum shouldn't live because "oh he might be a jester", as it promotes bad play and is an undeserved win
"THE ONE AND ONLY. SPAGOT BOI SUPERDUPER *dAb DaB*"
-Superduper



Choose the character's actions in these fun and simple Arcade games:
Spoiler:
You: W-Where am I?

Image

You wake up in a generic RPG.


Spoiler:
???: How will I get out of these rooms? I-I can't do anything...

Image
SAVE the Red Girl


Spoiler:
But nothing was there...

Taking short break from forums
User avatar
marlony1
Doctor
Doctor
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:26 am
Location: None of your beeswax.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 pm

marlony1 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.

Town is already punished for careless lynching, losing a townie.
If town lynched scum, they deserve to live. Scum shouldn't live because "oh he might be a jester", as it promotes bad play and is an undeserved win



Having a jester in-game doesn't "promote bad play". It makes people more careful about who they want to lynch. Regardless of their faction.

Also, if you're able to trick people into lynching you without being an "obvious jester" than you totally deserve the win.
Wanna say somethin'? >B3
PM
User avatar
Villagerlover
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1293
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:59 pm
Location: Hang on I need to ask Google Maps

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.

Town is already punished for careless lynching, losing a townie.
If town lynched scum, they deserve to live. Scum shouldn't live because "oh he might be a jester", as it promotes bad play and is an undeserved win



Having a jester in-game doesn't "promote bad play". It makes people more careful about who they want to lynch. Regardless of their faction.
Which promotes bad play. It makes people avoid obvious scum... there's a big difference between making people be careful and legit letting someone who claims GF live.
Also, if you're able to trick people into lynching you without being an "obvious jester" than you totally deserve the win.
You deserve to win as a jester, but if you're a scum and trick town into you being an obvious jester, by literally sucking at the game, you don't deserve it.
"THE ONE AND ONLY. SPAGOT BOI SUPERDUPER *dAb DaB*"
-Superduper



Choose the character's actions in these fun and simple Arcade games:
Spoiler:
You: W-Where am I?

Image

You wake up in a generic RPG.


Spoiler:
???: How will I get out of these rooms? I-I can't do anything...

Image
SAVE the Red Girl


Spoiler:
But nothing was there...

Taking short break from forums
User avatar
marlony1
Doctor
Doctor
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:26 am
Location: None of your beeswax.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:08 pm

I really love playing as jester, but I also hate playing against one, since differencing a jester and a bad player is impossible. At least I think BMG should replace the NE slot in ranked with a witch, so jesters can't roll in ranked and NK actually has a chance.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

PreviousNext

Return to Role Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests