Let serial killer choose to attack jailor (Accepted in TG)

[Skulldug13]

The change was accepted into TG! Thanks guys for the support.




This is a bit of a problem for sk, due to the fact that it is a insta-lynch if they are jailed. If the serial Killer can choose to kill or not kill the jalor, it can create a a false sense of trust.
But let me know what you think.

[Parallax7]

I would like to agree with this, but I simply cannot. I've thought of this, but it just wouldn't work.

Why?

Jailing someone triples as three things, role blocking, night chatting, and kill capability(optional). What makes Serial Killer so strong, or intended to be strong, is its ability to kill faster than any other Neutral Killing. To take away the forced Jailor Kill means taking away auto-killing Escort. Which would be a nerf, despite it helping. Because killing its role blockers is a strength of Serial Killer.

[dyaomaster]

However, the fact that he preserved being able to choose to kill the Jailor. Therefore, when trust is needed, SK can choose to not kill and the OP would achieve the desired effect. However, when more kills are required, there would still be the standard Jailor kill.

[Parallax7]

However, the fact that he preserved being able to choose to kill the Kailor. Therefore, when trust is needed, SK can choose to not kill and the OP would achieve the desired effect. However, when more kills are required, there would still be the standard Jailor kill.

You don't get it. Escort doesn't get a choice when roleblocking. Jailor shouldn't when roleblocking either.

[dyaomaster]

Ah I see.

I still support this side of the concept, but am unsure on what SK should do to other roleblockers, and see the need for it to be consistent.

[Parallax7]

Ah I see.

I still support this side of the concept, but am unsure on what SK should do to other roleblockers, and see the need for it to be consistent.

I have a reasonable solution.

Serial Killer can select itself during the day to activate a "soothing melody" that will calm it down. So if it's role blocked,it won't attack its role blocker. Itd still be able to attack though. It could do this twice.

[Parallax7]

There is no need for it to be consistent, especially since Jailor and Escort are nowhere near similar.

Escort and Consort doing the same duty I could understand, but Jailor is far more powerful than Escort.

You're wrong, literally one of Jailor's special attributes is role block manipulation of five.

[Parallax7]

Jailor has a special roleblock, as it can roleblock roleblock immunes while Escort can't.

Yes. A higher manipulation priority. Still roleblocks.

[Parallax7]

That's like saying transporter and witch should be allowed to use their actions in jail because a jail is just a roleblock. The jailor's jail is not the conventional roleblock, therefore it's okay to make an exception.

Although wills should be removed, and that'd help with that.

I disagree, Jailor role blocks, conventional or not, there needs to be consistency.

[BS4125]

I agree too, yes Jailor's roleblock is much more special than Escort's therefore it doesn't need to be treated the same, it's like saying a protection from a bulletproof vest and Night Immunity should be kept the same however Night Immune piercing roles don't kill targets wearing a bulletproof vest

Also, if a Jailor is killed everyone immediately tackles who was jailed that night and you can't really give any evidense against it so you end up getting killed

[Parallax7]

I agree too, yes Jailor's roleblock is much more special than Escort's therefore it doesn't need to be treated the same, it's like saying a protection from a bulletproof vest and Night Immunity should be kept the same however Night Immune piercing roles don't kill targets wearing a bulletproof vest

Also, if a Jailor is killed everyone immediately tackles who was jailed that night and you can't really give any evidense against it so you end up getting killed

Yes, and as unfortunate as that is, it's Neutral Killing. Balancing the game around them, and nerfing arguably their weakest role is not good at all. I've already argued why Jailor role blocks and regardless of whether it's different than Escort & Consort it still does the same basic thing. Role block. It's just more powerful.

[BS4125]

I agree too, yes Jailor's roleblock is much more special than Escort's therefore it doesn't need to be treated the same, it's like saying a protection from a bulletproof vest and Night Immunity should be kept the same however Night Immune piercing roles don't kill targets wearing a bulletproof vest

Also, if a Jailor is killed everyone immediately tackles who was jailed that night and you can't really give any evidense against it so you end up getting killed

Yes, and as unfortunate as that is, it's Neutral Killing. Balancing the game around them, and nerfing arguably their weakest role is not good at all. I've already argued why Jailor role blocks and regardless of whether it's different than Escort & Consort it still does the same basic thing. Role block. It's just more powerful.

Also, this doesn't nerf the Serial Killer it actually buffs it since it can still chose to kill the Jailor if wants to but if it doesn't it doesn't have to

[M3rkTiger]

I agree too, yes Jailor's roleblock is much more special than Escort's therefore it doesn't need to be treated the same, it's like saying a protection from a bulletproof vest and Night Immunity should be kept the same however Night Immune piercing roles don't kill targets wearing a bulletproof vest

Also, if a Jailor is killed everyone immediately tackles who was jailed that night and you can't really give any evidense against it so you end up getting killed

Yes, and as unfortunate as that is, it's Neutral Killing. Balancing the game around them, and nerfing arguably their weakest role is not good at all. I've already argued why Jailor role blocks and regardless of whether it's different than Escort & Consort it still does the same basic thing. Role block. It's just more powerful.

Their weakest role? Sk has the fastest kill rate of all the NKs. This isn't a nerf to SK, it's a buff. It's a nerf to Jailor if nothing else so he cannot SK check everybody and know that if nothing else they're not SK.

Here's an added scenario too for you.

SK jailed n1. Jailor's name is Bob. SK decides not to attack, and claims transporter (something stupid yes, but both doc and bg protect against sk attacking) jailor tells SK to transport him.
Jailor jails someone else. SK attacks them and claims he did Trans them, but SK attacked them still. Most likely meaning SK is the jailed target. Bad claims, but it gives the SK much more breathing room than just straight up killing the jailor. Escorts will continue being killed by sk but jailor is almost an instalynch unless you've got a damn good claim.

[Parallax7]

I agree too, yes Jailor's roleblock is much more special than Escort's therefore it doesn't need to be treated the same, it's like saying a protection from a bulletproof vest and Night Immunity should be kept the same however Night Immune piercing roles don't kill targets wearing a bulletproof vest

Also, if a Jailor is killed everyone immediately tackles who was jailed that night and you can't really give any evidense against it so you end up getting killed

Yes, and as unfortunate as that is, it's Neutral Killing. Balancing the game around them, and nerfing arguably their weakest role is not good at all. I've already argued why Jailor role blocks and regardless of whether it's different than Escort & Consort it still does the same basic thing. Role block. It's just more powerful.

Their weakest role? Sk has the fastest kill rate of all the NKs. This isn't a nerf to SK, it's a buff. It's a nerf to Jailor if nothing else so he cannot SK check everybody and know that if nothing else they're not SK.

Here's an added scenario too for you.

SK jailed n1. Jailor's name is Bob. SK decides not to attack, and claims transporter (something stupid yes, but both doc and bg protect against sk attacking) jailor tells SK to transport him.
Jailor jails someone else. SK attacks them and claims he did Trans them, but SK attacked them still. Most likely meaning SK is the jailed target. Bad claims, but it gives the SK much more breathing room than just straight up killing the jailor. Escorts will continue being killed by sk but jailor is almost an instalynch unless you've got a damn good claim.

Thanks for providing a scenario, but I understand why everyone seems to think this is okay.

Yes, the weakest Neutral Killing. Despite it having the fastest Kill rate, it's opponents can bypass immunity. Which is significantly more STRONG than not being able to. In addition, Serial Killer loses to both of which in a 1v1 scenario. Killing its roleblockers is what MAKES Serial Killer have a faster kill rate. That's why it kills ALL of its roleblockers.
Despite being role blocked/jailed. There is a reason why BMG incorporated Jailing into a role block. It dumbfounds me you don't understand this. I'll repeat it, I don't think nerfing Serial Killer, which is what this is, a nerf, despite it helping, it's okay. Because there is no consistency ALL role blockers need to be effected by this, or none at all, otherwise you're making the game LESS balanced. Additionally, Jailor dying by Serial Killer is an even Trade. Everyone wines, bitches, and moans about how powerful Jailor is, well Jailor dying by SK is perfectly reasonable, because 9/10 SK is lynched the following day. That's one powerhouse down, at the cost of one scum, assuming Jailor didn't execute.

[M3rkTiger]

I agree too, yes Jailor's roleblock is much more special than Escort's therefore it doesn't need to be treated the same, it's like saying a protection from a bulletproof vest and Night Immunity should be kept the same however Night Immune piercing roles don't kill targets wearing a bulletproof vest

Also, if a Jailor is killed everyone immediately tackles who was jailed that night and you can't really give any evidense against it so you end up getting killed

Yes, and as unfortunate as that is, it's Neutral Killing. Balancing the game around them, and nerfing arguably their weakest role is not good at all. I've already argued why Jailor role blocks and regardless of whether it's different than Escort & Consort it still does the same basic thing. Role block. It's just more powerful.

Their weakest role? Sk has the fastest kill rate of all the NKs. This isn't a nerf to SK, it's a buff. It's a nerf to Jailor if nothing else so he cannot SK check everybody and know that if nothing else they're not SK.

Here's an added scenario too for you.

SK jailed n1. Jailor's name is Bob. SK decides not to attack, and claims transporter (something stupid yes, but both doc and bg protect against sk attacking) jailor tells SK to transport him.
Jailor jails someone else. SK attacks them and claims he did Trans them, but SK attacked them still. Most likely meaning SK is the jailed target. Bad claims, but it gives the SK much more breathing room than just straight up killing the jailor. Escorts will continue being killed by sk but jailor is almost an instalynch unless you've got a damn good claim.

Thanks for providing a scenario, but I understand why everyone seems to think this is okay.

Yes, the weakest Neutral Killing. Despite it having the fastest Kill rate, it's opponents can bypass immunity. Which is significantly more STRONG than not being able to. In addition, Serial Killer loses to both of which in a 1v1 scenario. Killing its roleblockers is what MAKES Serial Killer have a faster kill rate. That's why it kills ALL of its roleblockers.
Despite being role blocked/jailed. There is a reason why BMG incorporated Jailing into a role block. It dumbfounds me you don't understand this. I'll repeat it, I don't think nerfing Serial Killer, which is what this is, a nerf, despite it helping, it's okay. Because there is no consistency ALL role blockers need to be effected by this, or none at all, otherwise you're making the game LESS balanced. Additionally, Jailor dying by Serial Killer is an even Trade. Everyone wines, bitches, and moans about how powerful Jailor is, well Jailor dying by SK is perfectly reasonable, because 9/10 SK is lynched the following day. That's one powerhouse down, at the cost of one scum, assuming Jailor didn't execute.

So town wins and sk loses because of it? I'm not saying sk can't choose to attack jailor and no, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Doctor doesn't heal Arsonist. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It's a buff to SK.

[dyaomaster]

I don't understand how this is a nerf. If you really hate the feature, then if it's implemented just manually select to kill the Jailor when you get jailed. It's that simple.
So you get a new thing you are able to do if you want. Does that make the role worse?

(And you have to remember, in most Ranked games the NK works alone. So, if a Serial Killer is jailed and stabs the Jailor and gets lynched, then the SK has just lost the game. So what if he eliminated one powerful enemy in exchange for his entire team?)

[Skulldug13]

I just don't understand how, he thinks it is a nerf. I would make the serial killer of more opportunity then he had before. He would be able to establish trust rather then just, "He was jailed, Jailor died. HES THE SK." Even if you do manage to place a good doctor you would still get lynched. Literally the only thing you can claim n1 is SK. Which would possibly lead you to survive 1 more night then get lynched the next day.

[EmeraldDS]

I would like to agree with this, but I simply cannot. I've thought of this, but it just wouldn't work.

Why?

Jailing someone triples as three things, role blocking, night chatting, and kill capability(optional). What makes Serial Killer so strong, or intended to be strong, is its ability to kill faster than any other Neutral Killing. To take away the forced Jailor Kill means taking away auto-killing Escort. Which would be a nerf, despite it helping. Because killing its role blockers is a strength of Serial Killer.

So how about make it immune to Escorts? At least that doesn't get it lynched as fast as insta-killing Escort. Then Town has to confirm that the "Escort" is actually an Escort, etc etc.

[Parallax7]

This is dead, and my arguments could of been a little better in their format and reasoning.

[HereThereEverywhere]

Lemme bring it back to life to say that this change shouldn't happen. SK didn't kill last night? Jailor jails last target, no SK kill? Jailor kills SK. Yes, the SK could potentially frame someone this way, but that means they're getting no killing done which harms them a lot. Being jailed repeatedly with no SK kills pretty much confirms the jailed as SK, whereas if SK kills the Jailor then there's a chance that person's not the SK.

[DragonClaw66]

I want to come in and say that I also disagree with this. Like HTE pointed out, if there aren't any Serial Killers kills on one night, the Jailor will just recheck. If there still aren't any Serial Killer kills, it's safe to assume that the jailed was the Serial Killer. If the Jailor dies, you can assume that the Serial Killer just chose not to attack the night before. The Serial Killer can also still put suspicion on others by killing the Jailor directly, anyway.

[marlony1]

I want to come in and say that I also disagree with this. Like HTE pointed out, if there aren't any Serial Killers kills on one night, the Jailor will just recheck. If there still aren't any Serial Killer kills, it's safe to assume that the jailed was the Serial Killer. If the Jailor dies, you can assume that the Serial Killer just chose not to attack the night before. The Serial Killer can also still put suspicion on others by killing the Jailor directly, anyway.

...So?

Why does this matter at all. If you jail the mafia, and mafia doesn't attack, do you want to give them the right to attack jailors?

This suggestion would still be better as you cant get screwed n1 by jailor. And you can be a checkerboard serial killer (One that has a random kill pattern), to counteract the jailor claim.

[Skulldug13]

Lemme bring it back to life to say that this change shouldn't happen. SK didn't kill last night? Jailor jails last target, no SK kill? Jailor kills SK. Yes, the SK could potentially frame someone this way, but that means they're getting no killing done which harms them a lot. Being jailed repeatedly with no SK kills pretty much confirms the jailed as SK, whereas if SK kills the Jailor then there's a chance that person's not the SK.

So? Out-come would be the same so why not support the change? It will not really either harm sk or Buff him super much. But, what if there is no sk on the rolelist? not many rolelists contain "Sk" Alot of them are Neutral Killing.

[marlony1]

Lemme bring it back to life to say that this change shouldn't happen. SK didn't kill last night? Jailor jails last target, no SK kill? Jailor kills SK. Yes, the SK could potentially frame someone this way, but that means they're getting no killing done which harms them a lot. Being jailed repeatedly with no SK kills pretty much confirms the jailed as SK, whereas if SK kills the Jailor then there's a chance that person's not the SK.

People fail to realize this.

You can kill.
If you want to.

No one is forcing you to not kill the jailor.

[Jackparrot]

I would like to agree with this, but I simply cannot. I've thought of this, but it just wouldn't work.

Why?

Jailing someone triples as three things, role blocking, night chatting, and kill capability(optional). What makes Serial Killer so strong, or intended to be strong, is its ability to kill faster than any other Neutral Killing. To take away the forced Jailor Kill means taking away auto-killing Escort. Which would be a nerfHow would it be a nerf? It would be a buff, despite it helping. Because killing its role blockers is a strength of Serial Killer.