The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Which of these roles do you actually like?

Tracker
59
17%
Ambusher
36
10%
Crusader
25
7%
Trapper
34
10%
Mystery Role
28
8%
Hypnotist
29
8%
Pirate
41
12%
Psychic
27
8%
Guardian Angel
36
10%
Plaguebearer
40
11%
 
Total votes : 355

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat May 20, 2017 11:30 am

JammySplodge wrote:I really like Trapper

I feels like it adds a good dynamic to Town Protective


Indeed. The only reason I haven't moved Trapper in the 'Good' section is because I need to see how it works with Mayors.

Can a Trapper set a trap on a revealed Mayor? If the answer is yes, then the Mayor is immune to the Mafioso. The Mafioso would have to die for Mafia to be able to kill the Mayor unless the Mafia Killing is an Ambusher, assuming that the Mafioso in Ranked role list gets changed to Mafia Killing.

Mafia can get around this by sending their Mafia Support/Deception (I honestly feel that those should be merged), all of which (except Disguiser) get priority over the Mafioso, so they can visit with the Mafioso or the night before.

The Trapper can be a huge pain to the Mafia, but there are ways to get around its healing, and it can't kill immunes (I believe), so I would say it's balanced.

Overall, I think that the Trapper is a balanced role, and I am heavily considering moving it into the 'Good' section--but I still need to do heavy playtesting on it. Keep in mind I've only played 6-7 Coven games and haven't played Ranked in the Test Realm yet.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


Image

FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
User avatar
Tigerleap
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:46 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Sat May 20, 2017 11:39 am

I'm not sure how Trapper works
sometimes I've seen it kill GF, once I was Trapper and caught GF who wasn't killed
One of these was a bug and I assume, as the Trapper has Basic Attack, the GF wasn't supposed to die
It's weird tho

Also I believe Crusader would be good if there was a kill priority order rather than RNG
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

User avatar
JazzMusicStops
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 5667
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:06 am
Location: Mr Johnson's Wild Ride (GMT)

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat May 20, 2017 11:45 am

My only problem with Trapper is even after you kill them the trap stays, doesn't it? That means you literally can't get rid of whoever they protected without a sacrifice.
User avatar
HereThereEverywhere
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4869
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: I am here

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Sat May 20, 2017 11:50 am

once the trap is sprung it's gone I'm p sure
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

User avatar
JazzMusicStops
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 5667
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:06 am
Location: Mr Johnson's Wild Ride (GMT)

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat May 20, 2017 11:52 am

Yes, but you still need to sacrifice someone to get rid of it.
User avatar
HereThereEverywhere
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4869
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: I am here

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat May 20, 2017 11:58 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, but you still need to sacrifice someone to get rid of it.

As Mafia, you can send a Mafia Support/Deception role to activate the trap and get rid of it without dying. And as NK, you won't be affected since Trapper isn't supposed to kill immunes.

Trapper only kills non-immune attackers. If you see it killing an a immune or a non-attacker, then it's a glitch...

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


Image

FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
User avatar
Tigerleap
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:46 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat May 20, 2017 12:16 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot that Trapper only kills attackers. Nvm.
User avatar
HereThereEverywhere
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4869
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: I am here

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat May 20, 2017 2:07 pm

I've changed the Trapper to the 'Good' section. I just had my first game as it, and I must say that it was a fun role to play as, and it seemed to be balanced well.

I have not yet seen the Trapper in Ranked since nobody plays Ranked in the PTR, but on the Coven Classic rolelist it works quite well.

The Trapper is very glitchy, though. Refer to the 'Notes' section of the post to see what I'm talking about. I'm sure BMG is working their butts off trying to fix these glitches since there's so many of them, so if you spot any PTR glitches, make sure to report them. The sooner the glitches are fixed, the sooner the update comes out, or so I hope.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


Image

FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
User avatar
Tigerleap
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:46 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby wozearly » Mon May 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Tigerleap wrote:snip


GOOD roles:
* Tracker- the Tracker is a simple but effective concept, and I'm glad it's finally being added.
Agreed.

* Ambusher- it seems like a really strong Mafia role; it does have a lot of potential, but requires skill to be used effectively.
Also agreed. Played well, the Ambusher wrecks TP and Transporters' well-crafted plans, and can shield potentially suspicious people from inquisitive TIs. It's a deliciously evil addition to the mafia.

* Trapper- the Trapper is the well-rounded Protector that we've always needed. The Trapper can only lay down traps every other turn, but those traps are permanent until they are activated. When activated, they give useful information to the Trapper, though it isn't too useful. These traps allow the Trapper to protect important Townies without having to stay on them every night, and they are Mafioso-proof, but the Mafia can get around this by sending a Mafia Support/Deception to someone they suspect is trapped. Traps will also be triggered if a Townie visits, so they aren't too powerful. This role has its ups and downs, but overall, I'd say it's balanced.
I agree - although it has some slight bugs at the moment, the Trapper concept seems to work well. Could do with a name change, though - several people have got lynch-happy because they confused Tracker claims with Trapper claims (and vice-versa).

UNCLEAR roles:
* Crusader- it seems like a decent role idea, but there are a few questions that need answers. 1: Can it heal Mayors? 2: Can it kill people trying to kill its target (such as Mafioso)? 2.5: If so, can it kill killers with
night immunity? 2.75: If so, if an Ambusher visits the target, will it be killed, and will the Crusader be killed?
It can protect (not heal) Mayors, and it basic-attacks one visitor to the target (at random if more than one) irrespective of their intent. So it can kill the Mafioso, RM and Coven, but not the GF or other night-immune NKs. I've not explicitly tested this, but I understand that with the exception of a Veteran, the Ambusher out-prioritises other visitors - so like every other TP, the Ambusher will kill the Crusader unless the Crusader is healed. However, I believe the Ambusher would die in the process as well.

I've found it to be an interesting addition, as it forces the Town to break some of their meta-behaviour until they've confirmed what TPs are in-game. Indeed, claiming Crusader as scum really freaks the hell out of the visiting TIs. ;)


* Juggernaut- I have nothing to say about this, since there is literally nothing to say.
Me either.

BAD roles:
* Hypnotist- unless I misunderstood the description, this is RNG! RNG is always bad because it often leads to unbalance. RNG is especially bad in this case because the Hypnotist is a Mafia role. If the RNG selects an impossible message, it could reveal that there is a Hypnotist in the game. For example, if a player gets a notification that they have been attacked + healed, but Town Prot and RT are both dead, they will know it's likely that Random Mafia is a Hypnotist, which makes the Hypnotist's ability semi-useless for the rest of the game if this information is disclosed.
Totally agreed. Hypnotist needs to have an influence over the message, or they have to rely on blind luck tricking people as opposed to confirming there's a hypnotist in the game. Having an influence means they could potentially back up other Mafia claims.
"Godfather: I'm Escort."
"Mayor: Well, confirmed Sheriff says you're NS, so you can't be Consort. Okay, roleblock me tonight to prove."
*Hypnotist visits Mayor*
"Mayor: Yup, I was roleblocked last night. He's a legit Escort."
"Lookout: Erm...Mayor, actually you were visited by Paul McKenna, not the Escort claim"
"Hypnotist: Gee Golly!"
"Godfather: Flummery!"


* Pirate- oh, boy, where do I even start? Rock-paper-scissors isn't technically RNG since the player has a choice, but the player has no idea what the other will pick, so they're basically guessing randomly. I know that there's a lot of guessing involved in ToS, but not like this. A player's life--two player's lives, actually--shouldn't depend on a random guess they're forced to do because of this stupid Neutral Chaos role. Oh, and *cough cough* Neutral Chaos *cough cough*.
I don't despise the Pirate as much as others do, but I totally understand that it's a love-hate character which can cause a lot of disruption.

* Psychic- this role is outright confusing and I really wish BMG had given us more information, but I don't think I need more information to see just how awful this idea is. If I understand correctly, it tells the player three roles every other night, all of which are in the game (or one of which is in the game, they didn't specify), one of which is evil. This may lead to an Arsonist being discovered really early on, and I believe that the three roles are chosen at random. But the worst part is when it confirms somebody as being Town EVERY OTHER FLIPPIN' NIGHT! Do I really need to keep explaining to prove how ridiculously overpowered this role is?
Several players, myself included, have already flagged that the Psychic is a very powerful TI. To confirm, on odd nights you get three names - one of which is definitely evil (the others might or might not be). On even/full moon nights, you get given a confirmed Town role. And yes, you can cross-reference that with your previous nights to confirm that one of your three is dead, one is confirmed town, therefore the other is 100% confirmed evil. Left to its own devices, the Psychic absolutely devastates the scum roles.

BMG have indicated they already had some ideas up their sleeves in case Psychic turned out to be OP. My personal 2c would be to have the full moon nights give 2-3 people, one of whom is confirmed town, the other(s) might or might not be. That still gives the Psychic some potentially useful early info, and makes their will in the late-game something which may be very valuable, but stops them rapidly creating an alliance of confirmed Townies in the early days.



* Guardian Angel- this role is pointless and it harms the game more than anything. If it was just a reverse Executioner with a few heals, I wouldn't mind it too much (though I still wouldn't be a fan of it), but it makes the target immune to votes! This could seriously ruin the game for any given faction at any given time just because of this NB role. If Executioner and GA both shared a target, the Executioner would be screwed. And even if the Executioner got the target lynched, the GA could still win as a Survivor.
If the Jailor was dead, the Exe could still claim that the GA is protecting a scum role and ask the Vigi to shoot the GA / Escort to roleblock them so they could lynch the target the following day. It's by no means and automatic Exe failure, especially since the GA doesn't actually know the faction of their target.

My beef with the role is the GA becoming a survivor after they've failed their primary win condition, as it gives them far too easy a ride and limited incentive to really push the boat out to protect their target. I'd rather they had an extra heal/voteblock, but their win condition is solely that their target must remain alive at the end of the game (irrespective of which faction wins or whether the GA is still alive). If their target is killed, the GA dies of guilt the following night, Vigi-style. That would encouage the GAs not to openly reveal, and to actively dive in to distract and defend their target from whichever faction or factions was trying to remove them.



* Plaguebearer- Neutral Chaos? Check. Can scare the shit out of the entire town at any given time
? Check. Can't be detected until it's too late? Check. Congratulations, BMG, your role fits all the criteria for a NC role made by a 10 year old! This role can, like Vamps, stay in the background for most of the game, only to suddenly screw it all over. I have no idea just how crazy its abilities will be, but judging by BMG's loose word choice, it doesn't look good.
Plaguebearer is currently a weaker Arsonist with even less chance to hide amongst townies and claim "I'm-x-but-doused". The plague spreading mechanic by plagued visitors can be a bit random, and since the Plaguebearer has no idea who is or isn't plagued, it becomes pretty easy to waste visits without knowing you're wasting them. By the time you eventually do become Pestilence, it's very unlikely you have any claimspace left to hide in when you're put on the stand. I've yet to see a Plaguebearer come anywhere close to winning.
wozearly
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:48 am

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Mon May 22, 2017 9:44 pm

@wozearly

Thank you for the feedback! I've updated some of the descriptions, and for the time being, the Crusader will be in the 'Bad Roles' section along with all its RNG friends. Anyway, here's my response to your comments:

CRUSADER:
I've put the Crusader in the 'Bad Roles' section for two reasons.
1: It uses RNG to decide which visitor it kills. In my opinion, it should use reverse-priority to determine the visitor it kills (so if two visitors with 3 and 5 priority visit, the second visitor respectively will be killed).
2: The Crusader is way too weak. Outside of Coven gamemodes, the only scum visitors the Crusader will be able to kill will be the Mafioso, Random Mafia, and Witch or Any Mafia (if any). As compared to these few scum visiting roles, there's a lot of innocent Town visiting Roles that the Crusader could easily kill. As if this wasn't bad enough, if a Witch got ahold of a Crusader, it could be just as severe as controlling a Vigilante

PSYCHIC:
I don't think you understand how bad the Psychic's situation is. Not only is the Psychic OP, but it also uses RNG, which is always bad. The reason RNG is bad is because it makes choices that the players should be making, and it can make bad choices no matter how good a player is. The fix that you suggested could work as a temporary fix while BMG gets their stuff together, but there is, as far as I'm aware, no way to change the Psychic to make it non-RNG, which means that the best choice is to just scrap the role altogether or do a complete rework.
I don't think you understand how the Psychic works in its current state, either. When a Psychic says that 1 of 3 players is evil, it means that at least one of those players is evil, meaning that there could be more than 1 evil among those 3 players, therefore nobody can be confirmed as Town. The main problem with the Psychic isn't that it's OP (though that is still a problem), but that it uses RNG.

GUARDIAN ANGEL:
I think that the main problem with this role, really, is the game chooses who it has to side with; it isn't really Benign. To have a better understanding of what I'm saying, read my updated post.
As for the Survivor problem, I don't think it's fair to make the GA die when its target does. If the target gets DC'd or randomly logs out for whatever reason, then the GA will lose for something that isn't their fault. I don't think that it should have any vests once it becomes a Survivor, though, since most of the time they did fail at their job.
Speaking of their job, it's nearly impossible! It doesn't really matter how well the Guardian Angel plays; they just have to hope that their selected target doesn't suck at the game. Here's all of the ways the GA's target could die without the GA being able to do crap:
* Target DCs
* Target randomly leaves
* Target visits a Veteran early on (how is GA supposed to know when to heal?)
* Target is non-immune and killed at night (again, how are they supposed to know? They only get 2 heals)
* Arsonist. You can't heal from Arsonists.
* The target is a Jester
* The target sucks at claiming to Jailor and gets executed early on
* The target makes themselves suspicious and gets lynched before GA can react
* The target is scum and gets visited by TI early on
* Etc, etc, etc!
In conclusion, the whole concept of the Guardian Angel is pure bullcrap, and so is anyone that actually supports this role.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


Image

FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
User avatar
Tigerleap
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:46 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Tue May 23, 2017 12:21 am

"Outside of coven gamemodes"
You mean the places Crusader won't appear?
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

User avatar
JazzMusicStops
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 5667
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:06 am
Location: Mr Johnson's Wild Ride (GMT)

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby wozearly » Tue May 23, 2017 1:52 am

I hear what you're saying with Crusader, but if played right then they should be focusing on confirmed Townies rather than randomly guarding, so there shouldn't be too many situations where TI or TS roles get killed as a result. They'd be a death sentence to RT TP though. Also, you'd still need RNG to decide between equal priority visitors. Essentially, I don't see this particular use of RNG being a problem, although your suggested change would make it "less stupid" in terms of who they target, which is a good thing.

Psychic is...well, it's needs an overhaul. I do, I assure you, understand its mechanics are "at least one evil" rather than "only one is evil" - that's what I said previously. My point is that with the death rate of Townies in Salem, you can often narrow down evils quite quickly from the odd nights, and if the full moon info allows you to confirm RT/Any then you can rapidly build a network of confirmed townies and leave limited claimspace behind. If you're a Consort claiming Escort, and the Escort has been 100% confirmed by the Psychic, then you're not going to be able to make the claim stick for long.

However, we differ in that I don't mind it being RNG based, given its mechanic - my issue is that in its current form, it's just too powerful. I do, though, entirely understand why some people are violently opposed to any role with an RNG mechanic in there, and it's no surprise that some of Coven's most contentious roles are the RNG roles.

For the GA...I love the concept in principle, but I agree in practice it's a nightmare and that it's not really a Neutral Benign, because it's explicitly allied with a faction to begin with. Yes, my suggestion would make it a tough role to win as (Arso, Plaguebearer and Any Survivor all say hi, btw) but it would at least force the GA to focus on their win condition. At the moment, GAs seem too happy to reveal and confirm, because if their target dies they become a confirmed Survivor and not a priority target for either Town or the Scum.
wozearly
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:48 am

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Wed May 24, 2017 2:57 pm

Actually, if two people with the same priority visit, the Crusader would choose the one who chose their night action first. I believe that's how priority works in the current game. This means that the Crusader doesn't have to be RNG.

As for the Psychic, let me try to explain why RNG is bad. Imagine that there's a multitude of parallel universes out there, and each one represents one of the outcomes that the RNG could give. In one of these universes, Town would win because of the Psychic's information. In another, Town loses because the Psychic's information is worthless. The two outcomes are very different, but the way that the Psychic plays is the exact same; the actual Psychic doesn't have to do any investigating--they just have to hope that the RNG gives them good information. Another problem with the Psychic is that it requires absolutely no skill to play as, other than jotting down the information obtained. The game's crappy RNG spoon-feeds the Psychic with potentially game-changing information while the Psychic just sits there hoping they don't die.

salt incoming

The Guardian Angel is in all honesty the worst role that's been added in this update, and I still find it hard to believe that anyone actually likes this role. The concept of the role may not seem too bad on paper, but in a real game, it is just utter garbage.

Two heals with vote immunity the next day are nothing compared to Town's might. If the GA's target is discovered as a scum, they will get destroyed almost immediately. The GA's limited options will only slow down their target's inevitable death. As I've said before and I will say again for hopefully the last time, the fate of the GA's target does NOT lie in the GA's hands.

What if the target gets killed early on? What if they get lynched? What if they're a Jester? What if they're executed by Jailor? What if they get disconnected? What if they leave the game? What if they visit a Veteran? What if they're just a really bad player? Do you really think that TWO STUPID HEALS can save someone from the everyday factors of the Town of Salem?

It's also important to note that GA has no immunities, so they can die just as easily as the next guy, but if they die, their fate lies on their target's hands, but now they can't even try to defend the target.

The GA role is no masterpiece; it's trash, and so is everyone that likes it.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


Image

FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
User avatar
Tigerleap
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:46 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby wozearly » Wed May 24, 2017 4:39 pm

Tigerleap wrote:snip


"Actually, if two people with the same priority visit, the Crusader would choose the one who chose their night action first. I believe that's how priority works in the current game. This means that the Crusader doesn't have to be RNG."

As I said elsewhere, fine by me - I'm not convinced it'll add or detract a great deal from the role or from the experience of other players, but if this mollifies people who have a legitimate, understandable and well-founded hatred of RNG then it'd be a worthwhile change.


"As for the Psychic, let me try to explain why RNG is bad. Imagine that there's a multitude of parallel universes out there, and each one represents one of the outcomes that the RNG could give. In one of these universes, Town would win because of the Psychic's information. In another, Town loses because the Psychic's information is worthless. The two outcomes are very different, but the way that the Psychic plays is the exact same; the actual Psychic doesn't have to do any investigating--they just have to hope that the RNG gives them good information. Another problem with the Psychic is that it requires absolutely no skill to play as, other than jotting down the information obtained. The game's crappy RNG spoon-feeds the Psychic with potentially game-changing information while the Psychic just sits there hoping they don't die."


I entirely appreciate the point, having been in both situations as Psychic and against Psychic. However, I've yet to see a credible and workable suggestion for shifting the Psychic to a pure non-RNG version which would be workable and avoid either gimping the Psychic or making it even more overpowered than it already is. Obviously, one option is to throw it into the fire and never go near its smouldering corpse ever again. This was pretty much my immediate reaction to reading the role description, but I'd prefer to be constructive with BMG if at all possible.

Speaking personally, I'm not opposed to RNG ideologically. The vast majority of ToS games are influenced by pseudo-random factors as it is - for example, decisions on N1 visits have a strong randomised element to them due to the near-total lack of information on all sides, and the tendency for the metagame to shift between people deciding to actively target, or not target, unusual names. Roles such as Medium or Disguiser can be hugely influential in the 'right' game, and wither into insignificance in others. While both have the opportunity to apply skill, they have less direct influence in most cases than the majority of roles with more 'active' abilities. It's not surprising that the roles players dislike the most tend to be those which are the most passive and/or the most reliant on situational factors beyond their control.

While this isn't *quite* in the same category as a purely RNG-reliant role, I feel there is a shade of grey that roles containing an element of RNG can occupy without automatically being considered trash. A good case in point is Crusader, which only has an RNG element as a side-effect to their main ability. I'm actually fairly relaxed about it, as the role is still primarily skill based. Pirate and Psychic cross to the other side; although Pirate isn't technically RNG, as R-P-S does have a small skill element, in practice they act as if its a random 1/3 chance of whether they kill or not. Psychic crosses for exactly the reasons you say - they're far too passive, far too RNG reliant, the skill threshold is too low and, to top it off, they're also OP in their current form.


The Guardian Angel is in all honesty the worst role that's been added in this update, and I still find it hard to believe that anyone actually likes this role. The concept of the role may not seem too bad on paper, but in a real game, it is just utter garbage.


Agreed. The underlying concept of a third-party Survivor whose win condition is based on ensuring someone else survives to the end of the game is an interesting idea - and I actually quite like the concept of an anti-Exe in principle. But yes, it's also a hideously difficult one to implement in a workable form, and I agree that the current implementation is massively off the mark. The GA doesn't have the tools to stand up to a determined NK, or a majority-holding Mafia or Town.

That the GA can tactically decide to abandon protection of their target to win as Survivor isn't, in my view, a good thing. Yes, it's technically gamethrowing from their current role win conditions, but since they're almost certainly not a member of their target's faction it would be pretty tough to make that accusation stick. It's in the same vein as the last surviving Town member who technically shouldn't capitulate to the Vampires and win with them by being bitten but, y'know, does so that they convert an unwinnable game for them personally into a winnable one.

Because this alternative win condition exists, GAs are effectively played as Survivors with a random starting alignment that they can abandon at low risk after having confirmed themselves. Irrespective of any other factors, it's clearly not the way the role was intended to work. That adds rock all to the game, and makes for a potentially toxic role - hence why I feel strongly that they shouldn't convert to Survivors if their target dies, even though this does solve some potential issues about their target being unlucky/unfortunate and triggering an automatic GA loss.

I also agree it's difficult enough to keep yourself alive in ToS, let alone a random third party when you can only intervene to save them a limited number of times. My suggestion (+1/2 heals/voteblocks, die from guilt if target dies) converts it from a completely broken role into one which does at least have to stick solidly to its win conditions, makes confirming the alignment of the target role a key piece of information (which the GA can't directly get in a safe way), requires GAs to balance up the pros and cons of revealing and doesn't impose an automatic loss if they die themselves.

Your points around being killed early, lynched, executed and visiting Veterans are completely valid with only 2 vests, but as there's no reason the GA heal/voteblock couldn't prevent these from killing the target, increasing the number of vests should massively lower the risk of those things being an issue. This would also let the GA keep the target alive for long enough that they can have a reasonable shot at working out which faction they need to side with / against. Being dc'd and quitting would be legitimate gamethrows that would prevent the GA from winning, and they would suffer from this far more than other roles, but this is arguably no different from being stuck in a mafia with two poor luck / poor skill / gamethrowing partners. Blocking Exe/Jester from being chosen as the target in a similar way to Exe's not being allowed to have Mayor or Jailor as target would also make sense.

On the flip side, making the GA more powerful would mean on occasions where it effectively becomes a 5th/6th Mafia, or an actively ally for an NK, it would be a rather nasty thing to do to the Town...although, to be fair, it's not as if Town wouldn't benefit from having its win-rate dented a little.

Are these actions worth it to try to save the role? I'm not sure. It would still likely be a royal bastard to win as (it'd need testing), and removing it entirely might be the better, as well as the simpler, option.
wozearly
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:48 am

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby marlony1 » Wed May 24, 2017 11:08 pm

Why do people keep thinking Plaguebearer is a god like role that always wins and always ruins town?

It's actually the worst.

In order to win you have to predict other people's visits and who's gonna live.

When you infect someone, they most likely get lynched or killed the next day. Making you have to choose someone else.
"THE ONE AND ONLY. SPAGOT BOI SUPERDUPER *dAb DaB*"
-Superduper



Choose the character's actions in these fun and simple Arcade games:
Spoiler:
You: W-Where am I?

Image

You wake up in a generic RPG.


Spoiler:
???: How will I get out of these rooms? I-I can't do anything...

Image
SAVE the Red Girl


Spoiler:
But nothing was there...

Taking short break from forums
User avatar
marlony1
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:26 am
Location: None of your beeswax.

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Thu May 25, 2017 10:45 am

If everyone you infect is dying, you're infecting the wrong people.
User avatar
HereThereEverywhere
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4869
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: I am here

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Jackparrot » Fri May 26, 2017 10:10 am

The only things I have to say is that the GA should be tweaked and not removed
GA should be aboe to choose a target N1 if they don't choose then RNG should decide
I am not as active as I used to be, although I should be somewhat active.
Jackparrot
Sheriff
Sheriff
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:16 am

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby NettoTakashi » Fri May 26, 2017 7:07 pm

Tigerleap wrote:NOTES:
Entry 4: The Plaguebearer is useless. He doesn't have immunity, and he can't even do anything until really late in the game. He'll probably end up being killed at night before he can even become a Pestilence. The whole design of the Plaguebearer just doesn't work; it's a role that is UP then becomes OP, but two bads don't make a good...

Can't agree more. Plaguebearer sounds like an amazingly powerful role, but by the time it's able to do ANYTHING, town already has enough confirmed roles that Pestilence is easily lynched just by process of elimination. You do NOT want a slow-starting killing role. I've played at least a dozen games in Coven Mode, and on the rare occasions Pestilence does emerge, it's almost immediately lynched. The only exception was in a Lovers mode game where Pestilence was in love with a Coven member, giving him some much-needed support and letting him win with the Coven (or, well, anyone, really).
I think it would be a major boon to Pest if the players infected by PB *directly* (as opposed to those infected by visiting/being visited by PB's targets) died to the plague when Pest was summoned. This would also remove some of the redundancy of PB visiting people who were already infected through other players.
Alternately, give PB some sort of indicator at night that shows who is and who is not infected. In addition to keeping the PB from visiting already infected targets, this gives the PB some (minor) deductive ability-- if someone they didn't visit is infected, they know that person either visited or were visited by someone who was infected, letting the PB lower down players' roles just a little.
(EDIT) Another possibility would be to have someone *other than PB* turn into Pestilence, overriding their previous role. Perhaps have the least recently infected player become Pest. This would give Pest a much-needed ally, and Town would not be able to rule anyone out based on previously confirmed role, much like with Vampires. (/EDIT)

Tigerleap wrote:Entry 8: As a Trapper, I caught a Potion Master in a Trap, but the Potion Master didn't die, and there was nobody that could've healed them. I'm pretty sure Covens don't have immunity.

I suspect what happened here was that the Potion Master was using a potion other than their killing potion. They get three potions, and if they're not using the killing potion, the trap shouldn't treat them as a killer.

Tigerleap wrote:Entry 9: There is a glitched achievement for the Trapper.

Not glitched, they just hadn't decided what the name/description for the achievement should be yet at the time of that screenshot, so what you see there are placeholders.
User avatar
NettoTakashi
Benefactor
Benefactor
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Achilles » Sat May 27, 2017 3:49 am

Hey guys and gals,

First off thanks for helping test The Coven on the PTR and provide a lot of amazing feedback. We are already implementing a lot of balance changes (PB now sees who the plague spreads too, HexMaster kills with the Necronomicon, Psychic nerfs inc and VIP/Lovers/Rival balances inbound). I hope you are all having a good time play testing and I hope that fun of all of the new roles and game modes outweighs the fact that the expansion won't be perfectly balanced upon release. We don't have a huge team but were all working hard and doing our best to make it as great as we possibly can!
User avatar
Achilles
Developer
Developer
 
Posts: 915
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:02 pm

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby wozearly » Sat May 27, 2017 5:41 am

Achilles wrote:Hey guys and gals,

First off thanks for helping test The Coven on the PTR and provide a lot of amazing feedback. We are already implementing a lot of balance changes (PB now sees who the plague spreads too, HexMaster kills with the Necronomicon, Psychic nerfs inc and VIP/Lovers/Rival balances inbound). I hope you are all having a good time play testing and I hope that fun of all of the new roles and game modes outweighs the fact that the expansion won't be perfectly balanced upon release. We don't have a huge team but were all working hard and doing our best to make it as great as we possibly can!


Most of Coven is in really good shape, and those PB and HexMaster changes both make a lot of sense.

GA is still in need of a bit more thinking, though.
wozearly
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:48 am

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat May 27, 2017 4:13 pm

The suggestion I think would be best for GA is that they have to ensure the faction of their target's killer loses if they die. So, say your target is shot by a Vigilante, you have to make sure Town loses. Lynched? I'd probably make it the same, just to keep it simple. WW kills them? You have to make sure WW loses, etc. Fallen Angel would be a cool name, no?
User avatar
HereThereEverywhere
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4869
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: I am here

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby NettoTakashi » Sun May 28, 2017 2:35 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:The suggestion I think would be best for GA is that they have to ensure the faction of their target's killer loses if they die. So, say your target is shot by a Vigilante, you have to make sure Town loses. Lynched? I'd probably make it the same, just to keep it simple. WW kills them? You have to make sure WW loses, etc. Fallen Angel would be a cool name, no?

What if your target dies to more than one faction at the same time? For example, if they visit a Veteran while the SK and GF are both attacking them. Would that mean you have to kill Town, SK, AND Mafia? You'd need to be one hell of a powerful Angel to manage that. It's a nice idea, but it does need some further thought.
User avatar
NettoTakashi
Benefactor
Benefactor
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sun May 28, 2017 2:41 pm

Achilles wrote:Hey guys and gals,

First off thanks for helping test The Coven on the PTR and provide a lot of amazing feedback. We are already implementing a lot of balance changes (PB now sees who the plague spreads too, HexMaster kills with the Necronomicon, Psychic nerfs inc and VIP/Lovers/Rival balances inbound). I hope you are all having a good time play testing and I hope that fun of all of the new roles and game modes outweighs the fact that the expansion won't be perfectly balanced upon release. We don't have a huge team but were all working hard and doing our best to make it as great as we possibly can!


I appreciate that you're listening to our feedback, though I do still have a few questions left unanswered. I'm going to address your response briefly, then I'm going to address the questions that remain unanswered:

*I agree with the PB buff, though I do still think that he's too vulnerable, and may need either an auto-vest (like Witch's) or some sort of ally.
*Hex-master was always a UP role, and I'm glad it's being buffed. The Coven needs all the help it can get.
*As for the new gamemodes, I haven't really played them, though I do agree that it would be unwise to publish wildly unbalanced gamemodes, therefore I'm glad they're being balanced.
*And for the Psychic... well, I'm going to explain it in more detail later in this post...

Alright, so, here are my questions:

1: Are you going to fix the Hypnotist? The Hypnotist is an RNG role to its core, and it's so bad that I honestly don't get why BMG hasn't apologized for it yet. The role's concept was stolen off of Kirize's 'Drug Dealer,' and it was changed to become RNG. As is explained in my post, the RNG could potentially hurt Mafia more than anything.
2: Psychic does not need a nerf; it needs a rework. Either that, or the role's concept is scrapped completely. The Psychic is RNG, which means that the potency of the results does not rely on how skilled the player is. The Psychic is also a no-brainer role, which means that the Psychic just sits there while the RNG spoon-feeds them valuable information.
3: Please... just remove the Pirate. I am not the only one who has said this, but I will say it again; the Pirate is a completely useless role, and it has no good qualities. Refer to my post to see what I mean; the Pirate is functionally RNG since you have no idea what the other person is going to pick.
4: The Crusader also has RNG; are you going to keep it that way? Instead of killing a random visitor, I think it should kill the visitors in reverse-priority order (so the last person to visit priority-wise is killed by the Crusader).

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


Image

FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
User avatar
Tigerleap
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:46 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby UncleEarl » Sun May 28, 2017 3:46 pm

it wil not let me in the coven even let me play it and keep all the new charicters there really good keep doing what your doing
UncleEarl
Newbie
Newbie
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun May 28, 2017 10:10 pm

NettoTakashi wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:The suggestion I think would be best for GA is that they have to ensure the faction of their target's killer loses if they die. So, say your target is shot by a Vigilante, you have to make sure Town loses. Lynched? I'd probably make it the same, just to keep it simple. WW kills them? You have to make sure WW loses, etc. Fallen Angel would be a cool name, no?

What if your target dies to more than one faction at the same time? For example, if they visit a Veteran while the SK and GF are both attacking them. Would that mean you have to kill Town, SK, AND Mafia? You'd need to be one hell of a powerful Angel to manage that. It's a nice idea, but it does need some further thought.

I'd say GF, for the same reason SK wins in a 1v1 with GF. The GF has a higher winrate, and thus it'd be harder for you to beat them. Even more of a reason to keep your target alive.
User avatar
HereThereEverywhere
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4869
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm
Location: I am here

PreviousNext

Return to Archived PTR Posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests