Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Leave your suggestions about the game here!

Are Town Leader (formerly Town Power) and the resulting Mayor/Retributionist buffs good ideas?

Buff Mayor and Retributionist so they can fit in Town Leader with the more powerful Jailor.
142
56%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Add another Town Leader role.
31
12%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Have only Mayor and Jailor as Town Leader.
25
10%
Nerf Mayor and Retributionist, and have a confirmed Jailor. No Town Leader.
56
22%
 
Total votes : 254

Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:20 pm

Why though? Mafioso needs way more cover than Werewolf and Disguiser.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:29 pm

1 tk and one to is better cover than 2 Tps. And I'm just not ok with werewolf not having a more solid claim
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:37 am

Gave Framer one team frame. Not quite an unframe, and it can only do it once, but it's something.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:25 pm

Added two new, small Bodyguard nerfs to bring it more in line with Doctor:

-Can not be healed when sacrificed protecting somebody
-Can not protect from Arsonist's douse
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby Ogeezalo » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:48 pm

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Spy Changes: The first one agree with, the others aren't that good.
Spoiler: -Remove ability to read Mafia night chat
-Remove ability to see Mafia visits every night, instead give it one "supersensor" where when the Spy clicks on itself at night it sees Mafia visits for that night
-Remove ability to read whispers once dead
-[Maybe] Give it some other visiting ability, such as visiting somebody to see who they visit or checking somebody each night to see if their alignment is the same or different from the previous person's

Blackmailer Changes:
Spoiler: -Remove ability to read whispers What? What will blackmailer claim to fit in the investigation results? The ability to read whispers removes his ability to fit in his investigative results, otherwise he only has jailor left to claim, and he will either be executed, lynched, or shot the next night.
-Blackmailed targets can now only change their vote every 8 seconds (preventing the "vote spam to show blackmailed" tactic)maybe make it 6 or lower, because then you also can't vote with the town.

Framer Changes:
Spoiler: -Now makes framed targets appear with the Mafia Killing role to Lookouts
-If the Spy can still see Mafia visits when Framer is buffed, now makes any Mafia visits to the framed target not show up to Spy (including the Framer itself), and makes the framed target's visit show up to the Spy
-[Maybe] Now has one team frame per game, where it can visit one of its teammates and make them appear framed Make the godfather appear as mafia? Also that ruins the point of a framer achievement, and it is pretty pointless if not harmful.
-[Maybe] When it dies, it now shows up as the role of the last role it framed in the graveyard Yay, disguiser is no longer special.

Disguiser Changes: Is this for the reworked disguiser so you can make convincing wills? If so, then I agree.
Spoiler: -On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed (acts as a forge, but uses the Disguiser's actual last will)
-On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed
-On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed
-Upon death, the most recent victim's Last Will is displayed

Doctor Changes: Pretty sure this is already a thing.
Spoiler: -Healed targets of attacks now show up as immune to the attacker
Bodyguard Changes: Yes
Spoiler: -Can only kill Werewolf when its target is attacked, not when its target visits the Werewolf's target
Vigilante Changes:No, vigilante, veteran, and jailor need to explain anonymously why the executed or shot a person. Vigilantes can also explain who is immune without outting themselves.
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed
Veteran Changes:
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed
Jailor Changes: Strongly disagree, I think jailor is fine. Some roles are meant to be more powerful than others. Keep it at 3.
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed
-Number of executions reduced to 2 (and/or some other nerf, because holy crap this thing is OP)

Arsonist Changes: Agree with all.
Spoiler: -Douses now give no feedback notification
-Dousing an undoused target now extends the draw detector by one night
-Now makes doused targets "smell like gas" to an Investigator for the night they are doused and the next two nights, effectively framing them as an Arsonist
-Now detectable by Sheriff

Sheriff Changes: Agree with all except werewolf. Werewolf is meant to be a citizen that transforms into a werewolf, so on new moons they shouldn't be detectable.
Spoiler: -Can now detect Arsonist
-Can now detect Werewolf on non-full moons
-Can now detect Vampires

Amnesiac Changes: I Think that remembering the mafia thing shouldn't apply vice-versa for remember mafioso. The original mafioso should be promoted to godfather. I don't agree with making remembering silent, but announce that when amnesiac has remembered disguiser, they have remembered the disguised role instead of disguiser.
Spoiler: -Can now remember as Godfather or Mafioso if no other Mafia roles are dead
-Doing so with only one Mafia Killing role alive makes you the other one, regardless of which one you remembered (if the only living MK role is GF you become a Mafioso and vice-versa)
-Doing so with both Mafia Killing roles alive rolls you a Random Mafia role (if both a GF and a Mafioso are alive you roll a new Mafia role)
-No longer gives a Town-wide notification upon remembering a role
-Remembering a role now extends the draw counter

Transporter Changes: Eh.
Spoiler: -No longer gives feedback notifications
-Can no longer transport Jester guilt

Executioner Changes: I don't particularly like any of these.
Spoiler: -Can now read whispers while alive
-Can no longer have any Town Leader role as its target if TL is implemented
-Now loses night immunity after hanging its target
-Town must now kill it to win (the game cannot end in Town victory if an Executioner is alive)
-[Maybe] You are now told the role of your target

Forger Changes:Yes. Yes. Yes.
Spoiler: -Forged Will can now be edited during the day or nights when you haven't picked anybody
-Forges carry over into the next day and affect lynched targets

Godfather Changes: Disagree with whispers. Would make blackmailer useless, because I want to keep blackmailer the same. They would then also have to switch blackmailer with godfather. Should only be a thing if there is no mafioso.
Spoiler: -Can choose which Mafia member is promoted next via buttons in the Mafia box
-Can now read whispers

Werewolf Changes:Yeah, kinda ruins the whole "Full Moon thing" but I agree werewolf needs a buff.
Spoiler: -Now detectable by Sheriff on non-full moon nights
-Still cannot kill on Night 1, no matter what
-Always kills visitors on full moon nights OR can kill on non-full moon nights if it didn't kill 2+ people the night before OR can kill every night, but killing 2+ people removes its kill for the next night, or something I don't care just buff him

Witch Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now control people that have left but are not yet dead
-Controls now force your target to visit, even if they have used up their night ability (this also causes Survivor to visit instead of putting on a vest, unless you make them target themself)
-A control does not act as a visit (Witch is immune to Lookout, Veteran, and visiting a house where a Werewolf is rampaging)
-The first time you are attacked by an evil role you will automatically protect yourself by controlling your attacker (the attacker will receive both "you have been controlled" and "you have hit an immune target" messages)

Alignment Changes: Don't like these. Just buff vampire, and make it lose less ELO for losing.
Spoiler: -Town Leader added (Ret, Mayor, Jailor) (formerly known as Town Power)
-Neutral Benign changed to Neutral Unaligned (or not, I don't care, but apparently other people do)
-Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes

Jester Changes: I don't like the alignment changes, so nothing here really
Spoiler: -Now Neutral Unaligned (or Neutral Benign)
Vampire Hunter Changes: Or just buff vampire by making them either have no cap, or have them bite every night. I guess having the "Marshal" aspect for when vampires visit him would be fine (it would still count for the buffy the vampire hunter achievement).
Spoiler: -Changed to the Hunter
New Role:Yeah, it's okay.
Spoiler: -Added the Osservatore (but it can't read whispers)
Investigator Changes: I don't really agree with all the roles here, so I can't really comment.
Spoiler: -Change Investigator Results List to:
  • Framer, Vampire, Arsonist, (Recently Doused Targets), (Framed Targets)
  • Escort, Veteran, Consort
  • Transporter, Blackmailer, Amnesiac
  • Mayor, Jailor, Retributionist
  • Bodyguard, Hunter, Mafioso
  • Investigator, Consigliere
  • Lookout, Osservatore, Witch
  • Doctor, Forger, Serial Killer
  • Spy, Sheriff, Godfather, Executioner
  • Medium, Janitor, Jester
  • Vigilante, Survivor, Disguiser, Werewolf

Role-list Changes:
Spoiler:
  • Town Leader
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Protective
  • Town Killing
  • Town Support OR Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Godfather
  • Mafioso
  • Random Mafia
  • Random Mafia
  • Neutral Killing
  • Neutral Evil

Mayor Changes:Mayor doesn't really need a buff, especially one that big. I'm almost certain BMG removed whispers from mayor is because whisper roles was kinda OP.
Spoiler: -Can now be healed by Doctors
-Can now whisper
-If Town Leader (formerly Power) is not implemented, reduce votes to two.

Retributionist Changes: Disagree.
Spoiler: -Self-revives if killed without reviving anybody (buffed so it can be part of Town Leader)

The other option is to nerf the Ret so it dies when it revives somebody and not make it a part of the Town Leader (formerly Power) grouping. However, this would require a reshuffle of the Investigator results list and potentially warrant the addition of a new Town Leader role.

Vampire Changes: Probably should've put vamp buff changes here, but screw it.
Spoiler: -Remove 'em or something. At the very least, they should not be allowed outside of Chaos gamemodes.
Gamemode Changes: Chaotic custom won't actually keep people from putting chaotic gamemodes into custom or rapid IMO.
Spoiler: -New gamemode "Chaotic Custom", which is an exact copy of Custom but in the Chaos section and will host all of the crazy games
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you don't understand any of these suggestions, feel free to ask for clarification. If I goofed and forgot something, let me know!

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:51 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Added two new, small Bodyguard nerfs to bring it more in line with Doctor:

-Can not be healed when sacrificed protecting somebody
-Can not protect from Arsonist's douse

Not sure about not protecting from douses but I can certainly agree with the first

Ps OG currently healed Doctor targets do not show any notification to the attacker
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby Kirize12 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:10 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Added two new, small Bodyguard nerfs to bring it more in line with Doctor:

-Can not be healed when sacrificed protecting somebody
-Can not protect from Arsonist's douse

>never implemented on the OP
>qq

Also, does vigilante have Jailor's guilt?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby doublenikesocks » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:22 am

Isn't the point of making town have the highest winrate because there are more town players? It makes sense that the game is designed to give most of the players the win, and they do get less ELO reward. I do agree that there some type of nerf to town roles, esp. ret, but nerfing all town roles while buffing maf roles isn't the solution. Opinions?
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:23 am

doublenikesocks wrote:Isn't the point of making town have the highest winrate because there are more town players? It makes sense that the game is designed to give most of the players the win, and they do get less ELO reward. I do agree that there some type of nerf to town roles, esp. ret, but nerfing all town roles while buffing maf roles isn't the solution. Opinions?

orangeandblack5 wrote:Proportional winrates are the upper limit for the winrate split imo

Personally I'd like to see Town and Mafia be evenly matched, which puts a lot more emphasis on player skill to determine Elo. NK wins should, in my opinion, be around 5% in Ranked (certainly no more than 10%), which is essentially proportional. This gives me an ideal winrate somewhere between 42.5/42.5/5 and 60/30/10 T/M/NK, although the closer to the first one the better imo.

The worst problem with running strictly proportional winrates (or higher, like currently) is that what role you get directly impacts your chances and reduces the role of player skill. Evenly matched teams mean that player skill on each team determines the victor, whilst proportional winrates lead to what is essentially feeding whoever rolls Town the most the most Elo while trying to make everybody win as much as they can (it's hard to explain, I hope you get what I'm getting at - basically, it's the reason that asymmetrical games like Evolve shoot for each team to have an even winrate instead of giving the hunters an 80% chance and the monster a 20% chance).
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:35 am

doublenikesocks wrote:Isn't the point of making town have the highest winrate because there are more town players? It makes sense that the game is designed to give most of the players the win, and they do get less ELO reward. I do agree that there some type of nerf to town roles, esp. ret, but nerfing all town roles while buffing maf roles isn't the solution. Opinions?

The game is eant to force players to work hard for their victory and reward the players who played better . So no I rate should go higher than 50%. The nks should have a serious chance of winning but since the game is based on town versus mafia they are forced to a lower one.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby doublenikesocks » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:41 pm

randomguyhavingfun wrote:
doublenikesocks wrote:Isn't the point of making town have the highest winrate because there are more town players? It makes sense that the game is designed to give most of the players the win, and they do get less ELO reward. I do agree that there some type of nerf to town roles, esp. ret, but nerfing all town roles while buffing maf roles isn't the solution. Opinions?

The game is eant to force players to work hard for their victory and reward the players who played better . So no I rate should go higher than 50%. The nks should have a serious chance of winning but since the game is based on town versus mafia they are forced to a lower one.

I see. I still don't like the idea of maf having close to 50% winrate because that places a greater emphasis on townies playing better even though they will on average recieve more bad players than mafia. If there's one really bad player per game, (there usually is) then town's going to get that player 7/15 or 8/15 of the time while maf will get them 1/5 or 4/15. Either way arso wins are still incredibly hard. I seem to win the most with WW of any of the NK though.

orangeandblack5 wrote:
doublenikesocks wrote:Isn't the point of making town have the highest winrate because there are more town players? It makes sense that the game is designed to give most of the players the win, and they do get less ELO reward. I do agree that there some type of nerf to town roles, esp. ret, but nerfing all town roles while buffing maf roles isn't the solution. Opinions?

orangeandblack5 wrote:Proportional winrates are the upper limit for the winrate split imo

Personally I'd like to see Town and Mafia be evenly matched, which puts a lot more emphasis on player skill to determine Elo. NK wins should, in my opinion, be around 5% in Ranked (certainly no more than 10%), which is essentially proportional. This gives me an ideal winrate somewhere between 42.5/42.5/5 and 60/30/10 T/M/NK, although the closer to the first one the better imo.

The worst problem with running strictly proportional winrates (or higher, like currently) is that what role you get directly impacts your chances and reduces the role of player skill. Evenly matched teams mean that player skill on each team determines the victor, whilst proportional winrates lead to what is essentially feeding whoever rolls Town the most the most Elo while trying to make everybody win as much as they can (it's hard to explain, I hope you get what I'm getting at - basically, it's the reason that asymmetrical games like Evolve shoot for each team to have an even winrate instead of giving the hunters an 80% chance and the monster a 20% chance).

Yeah I get you. I guess I'd give it a try. See my point above.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby darkd123 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:03 pm

I know this information is completely useless and doesn't matter at all, but I'm the only person here who isn't a guest at the moment. :D

Anyway, I think the Sheriff is a little too buffed. I mean, all of the buffs would allow Sheriffs -who care more about winning than being annoying- to use annoying strategies that Vampires, Arsonists, E.T.C Won't be able to avoid. (An example would be a Sheriff interrogating a revealed mayor to see if he was bitten by a vampire.) And since Sheriffs usually say the interrogation results in their will, they would be confirmed evil roles. The problem with making these new roles shown to a Sheriff is that most of the roles that already are shown to Sheriff are easy to get other people the idea that you were shown to be evil because a certain thing happened, such as you being framed or a Werewolf was transed with you but were healed by a Doc. But with these new roles being shown to the Sheriff, the very small amount of situations where you weren't that role but it was just the circumstances you were in I assume would be hard to figure out.

I also think that with the new Ranked roles, there should be Random Mafia instead of Mafia support or Mafia deception. It would be easier for Townies to confirm their roles, allowing people to use process of elimination to find out who the criminals and evildoers are.That's just what I think, though. I know there is probably a few flaws, but whatever.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:00 am

Vampires shouldn't be biting a revealing Mayor if that Mayor can be lynched the next day.

Also, dark, pay attention to the person who posted before you. The last thing anyone said here was from December 13th. It's common courtesy to not "necrobump" a thread like this. When you post on a thread, it brings that thread to the top, therefore it is 'bumped' and if it's an old thread, then it's necrobumped'.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby Ufiix » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:12 pm

I feel that Jailor is and should be as powerful as it is. Giving less executions would cripple the role too much. We have NB roles that can side with the evils and the Neutral Evils and the NK and the Mafia. It needs 3 executions if you're going to be buffing all the evil roles. I know town has a high win ratio but its not because of the Jailor it's the Evil roles being too weak to do much about it.

Also add to mayor if you role block them maybe they cant reveal next day? IDK I just find mayors reveal annoying and you cant do anything about it either
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:40 pm

There was a suggestion a while back to make revealing a night action (that can therefore be RB'd).

It gained a decent amount of traction.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:50 pm

But it doesn't work when the Mayor is Town Power (why did it change to Town Leader q.q)

Also, does Vigilante have Jailor's guilt?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - New Update

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:02 pm

Kirize12 wrote:But it doesn't work when the Mayor is Town Power (why did it change to Town Leader q.q)

Also, does Vigilante have Jailor's guilt?

It was changed to Town Leader because of the people who say that it is a bad idea because of its name.
#SaveTheMayor

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Postby CyloDaDragonYT » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:18 pm

Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes

So you cant use vamps, plague/pest, or pirate in custom
I'm not the random person that insults everyone's roles that this forum wants or need
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Postby Purple998 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:36 pm

CyloDaDragonYT wrote:
Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes

So you cant use vamps, plague/pest, or pirate in custom




Why...? why did you necro this?? now they are gonna lock this precious thread :(
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:15 pm

CyloDaDragonYT wrote:
Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes

So you cant use vamps, plague/pest, or pirate in custom

Nope, just in Chaotic Custom.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

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