alex1234321 wrote:Right now, there can be up to eight self confirming Town roles, and the confirmed Jailor guarantees one. Your A role list can make it so there can be up to six and list be would limit it to five. This is better, but still too swingy. Town Power would limit that to ONE. There would be no swing at all.
IamTrusty wrote:Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.
randomguyhavingfun wrote:IamTrusty wrote:Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.
well techically there is still mafiavs nk so evils do vote. survivors and amnesiacs vote as well. evils have a majority on the current list too after N1 succesfull kill. jester and exes will also vote for obvious reasons. evils just dont team up that easily although the lists do ensure that they win more often
mdb1023 wrote:I like your role lost suggestion, and I do agree that there needs to be more claimspace. However, I think having three random town slots and an any, or even four random town slots, is a bit too much. We want more claimspace, but we don't want too much, either, otherwise it becomes way too chaotic. I also agree that some roles are too powerful, but if we nerf the town too much, everyone will complain that town is too weak. There's a delicate balance that would need to be found.
IamTrusty wrote:randomguyhavingfun wrote:IamTrusty wrote:Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.
well techically there is still mafiavs nk so evils do vote. survivors and amnesiacs vote as well. evils have a majority on the current list too after N1 succesfull kill. jester and exes will also vote for obvious reasons. evils just dont team up that easily although the lists do ensure that they win more often
Evils team up very frequently when they have majority it's generally known to just not vote. Because even if evils have to fight eachother. Beating town is the highest priority for both of them.
and surv/NE generally join that so they don't get wacked by evils for voting.
my point is, when there is no convincing killing power in town you cannot force ne/NB to vote with you. thus resulting in evils not voting when they have majority.
Skulomania wrote:Other than maybe tweaking a few town roles that may be a bit problematic, the role-list does not need such a huge overhaul. (maybe tweak the Any and add more Random Town)
What I think this game needs badly is a new Neutral Benign Role, and one that has an equal and balanced impact on all the other alignments rather than being heavily one sided each game.
Currently the NB alignment a lot of the times acts as another Townie, and that has huge implications on town's victory. An amnesiac becoming town can prove almost devastating in the right circumstances, and also brings the mafia/NK back a night. A lot of the times, an amnesiac becoming town is heavily correlated to town's evident victory.
And the survivor also acts as a townie vote most of the time, especially early in the game, and late. Only times it will not be considered a townie is when the town lose majority, but that evidently means the town has already lost, so the survivor is meaningless to the win or loss at that point.
So yeah, with a few tweaks to existing town roles and the rolelist, and more Neutral Benign roles that are completely different to the survivor or amnesiac , would be a good start.
alex1234321 wrote:In List A, Jailor can be Town Killing, and Retributionist can be Town Support. Additionally, the three Random Towns and Any can all be confirming roles that are not unique, such as Transporter. This is very unlikely, but having two or three self confirming roles would be somewhat common. In List B, Jailor can be Town Killing and all the Random Towns can be self confirming roles. I know that this is also unlikely, but like List A, it would be common to have at least two self confirming roles.
Town Power can limit this to one, depending on how it is implemented. It would need:
Town Killing roles to not have death notes
Amnesiac's remembering message to be removed
Your suggestion for Retributionist
Town Power would also have to be Mayor, Jailor, and Transporter. Transporter could be buffed so that its targets would automatically die if they attack themselves, regardless of night immunity. Retributionist would probably not work in Town Power because it can confirm revived people and any Mediums. Of course, there would also need to be other minor balancing changes, such as nerfing Jailor.
randomguyhavingfun wrote:I'm guessing you mean something like your polymath or my avenger. I do agree that we need a neutral benign role that can affect all factions but I do get the purpose of survivor and amnesiac. Anyway even if there was one or 2 new neutral benign roles added survivor and amnesiac would still roll so we would still be in the same situation. The neccesary changes to the role list are not that big sure but by creating random neutral and using roles according to the players play style you have a much more competitive environment and more strategy involved in the game. That is what I am trying to do. Obviously there are still flaws but I bet on the community to help with them.
Skulomania wrote:randomguyhavingfun wrote:I'm guessing you mean something like your polymath or my avenger. I do agree that we need a neutral benign role that can affect all factions but I do get the purpose of survivor and amnesiac. Anyway even if there was one or 2 new neutral benign roles added survivor and amnesiac would still roll so we would still be in the same situation. The neccesary changes to the role list are not that big sure but by creating random neutral and using roles according to the players play style you have a much more competitive environment and more strategy involved in the game. That is what I am trying to do. Obviously there are still flaws but I bet on the community to help with them.
It does not have to be the Polymath or any other specific role idea, but it needs to be a role that is different from amnesiac/survivor and has a balanced and fair impact on all alignments.
And check my statistics suggestion in the tracking sticky post. What i am trying to do essentially is , as you stated in bold, that there not only needs to be new NB roles added, but also tweaks the current ones. And tweaking/changes needs to start through proper evidence, and that applies for all things, although i am specifically focused on NB.
Essentially, as long as an NB role is proven to not unfairly impact or directly correlate to an alignments victory or loss, it is perfectly viable in a ranked environment. And that is what needs to be accomplished.
And yeah i agree that there needs to be more claimspace and a few minor changes to the rolelists as you have given, but any and all changes should not involve the absolute removal of a Neutral Benign.
randomguyhavingfun wrote:B. Investigator
Town investigative
Town support
Town killing
Town protective
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia support
Mafia deceptive
Executioner
Neutral evil/benign
Any
A. Town killing
Town protective
Town investigative
Random town
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign/chaos
ICECLIMBERS wrote:randomguyhavingfun wrote:B. Investigator
Town investigative
Town support
Town killing
Town protective
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia support
Mafia deceptive
Executioner
Neutral evil/benign
Any
Any rolling mafia means that there's five mafia which is pretty much a guaranteed win. Confirmed investigator does... nothing, really. Jailor rolling in town killing is much more powerful than vet or vig rolling there.A. Town killing
Town protective
Town investigative
Random town
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign/chaos
Town doesn't even have majority so they automatically lose, no point going over the other many flaws.
alex1234321 wrote:ICECLIMBERS wrote:randomguyhavingfun wrote:B. Investigator
Town investigative
Town support
Town killing
Town protective
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia support
Mafia deceptive
Executioner
Neutral evil/benign
Any
Any rolling mafia means that there's five mafia which is pretty much a guaranteed win. Confirmed investigator does... nothing, really. Jailor rolling in town killing is much more powerful than vet or vig rolling there.A. Town killing
Town protective
Town investigative
Random town
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign/chaos
Town doesn't even have majority so they automatically lose, no point going over the other many flaws.
I have seen Town win 3-5-7 games. Although these might be a bit scum sided, Town would still win occasionally. From my All Any experience, Town rarely wins 6-5-4s, but often wins 7-4-4s.
IamTrusty wrote:randomguyhavingfun wrote:IamTrusty wrote:Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.
well techically there is still mafiavs nk so evils do vote. survivors and amnesiacs vote as well. evils have a majority on the current list too after N1 succesfull kill. jester and exes will also vote for obvious reasons. evils just dont team up that easily although the lists do ensure that they win more often
Evils team up very frequently when they have majority it's generally known to just not vote. Because even if evils have to fight eachother. Beating town is the highest priority for both of them.
and surv/NE generally join that so they don't get wacked by evils for voting.
my point is, when there is no convincing killing power in town you cannot force ne/NB to vote with you. thus resulting in evils not voting when they have majority.
mdb1023 wrote:I like your role lost suggestion, and I do agree that there needs to be more claimspace. However, I think having three random town slots and an any, or even four random town slots, is a bit too much. We want more claimspace, but we don't want too much, either, otherwise it becomes way too chaotic. I also agree that some roles are too powerful, but if we nerf the town too much, everyone will complain that town is too weak. There's a delicate balance that would need to be found.
randomguyhavingfun wrote:Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT
Some Criticism here, don't flame me
serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severly too. so
1 instead of killing escort/consort when roleblocked make it roleblock immune
2 if you are jailed you may select yourself to kill the jailor but you will not do so if you do not select yourself Might be better if you can choose to attack the Jailor by clicking a button next to their name
3 give it a one time second ability using a second night button. Brutal kill. Brutal kill goes through night immunnity cannot be healed by a doctor and if your target is protected by a bodyguard you will not die using brutal kill. brutal kill is also undetectable by lookout.
arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
- dousing now extends the draw counting
- when igniting you are roleblock immune and control immune Roleblock immune - maybe. Control immune - no.
- jailor can no longer protect someone from ignition I would rather have Jailor not being able to protect someone from being doused, but I'm also fine with both
- dousing ignores transportations No. Just no.
- I would say that any ignited targets wills should be 'burnt' away and are not public to the Town
werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insuficent kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- you have the same jailor and escort/consort change as the serial killer does on full moon nights
- cannot be killed by an alerting veteran All roles die by visiting an alerting Veteran - Werewolf should be no different. They even get to kill the Veteran already
- a doctor/bodygurd will not be able to save your victims unless they are the original target
- people killed by the werewolf cannot be revived and thei roles are not shown to anyone but the werewolf This is way too much of a buff
also ive been thinking that maybe we could allow all nks to win together? its just a thought but this would give them allies that are not the always sided with town survivor or the always sided with mafia witch. Then again this isnt neccesarily needed. Pls no.
darkabsol wrote:randomguyhavingfun wrote:Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT
Some Criticism here, don't flame me i will do my best
serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severly too. so
1 instead of killing escort/consort when roleblocked make it roleblock immune
2 if you are jailed you may select yourself to kill the jailor but you will not do so if you do not select yourself Might be better if you can choose to attack the Jailor by clicking a button next to their nameno because that would reveal jailors identity
3 give it a one time second ability using a second night button. Brutal kill. Brutal kill goes through night immunnity cannot be healed by a doctor and if your target is protected by a bodyguard you will not die using brutal kill. brutal kill is also undetectable by lookout.
arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
- dousing now extends the draw counting
- when igniting you are roleblock immune and control immune Roleblock immune - maybe. Control immune - no.ok?
- jailor can no longer protect someone from ignition I would rather have Jailor not being able to protect someone from being doused, but I'm also fine with boththe real problem is jailor saving from ignition as he can really only randomly guess about dousing but he can protect confirmed townies from ignition
- dousing ignores transportations No. Just no.in guess so. Don't know why not though
- I would say that any ignited targets wills should be 'burnt' away and are not public to the Townso support the mafia huh? Well mafia could use a buff but this barely helps the arso himself while making no sense at all
werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insuficent kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- you have the same jailor and escort/consort change as the serial killer does on full moon nights
- cannot be killed by an alerting veteran All roles die by visiting an alerting Veteran - Werewolf should be no different. They even get to kill the Veteran alreadyso what? If you die as werewolf you lose. Killing the vet does nothing. And this could intimidate veterans not to just reveal themselves even though removing death not is still needed.
- a doctor/bodygurd will not be able to save your victims unless they are the original target
- people killed by the werewolf cannot be revived and thei roles are not shown to anyone but the werewolf This is way too much of a buffim not sure if that should exist with a role whose win rate is 5% and is unique. Ret is nerfed and you get claimspace for yourself
also ive been thinking that maybe we could allow all nks to win together? its just a thought but this would give them allies that are not the always sided with town survivor or the always sided with mafia witch. Then again this isnt neccesarily needed. Pls no.yeah it isn't such a good idea. But otherwise we have to buff these guys to the limit. Much like what I did
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